Here is why, as an Adventist, I believe America is in Trouble.

[quietthinker]

It is not narrow minded to stick to the biblical text without adding man made beliefs into it. Your view is wide and you don't see how wide it is. SDA doctrine has been added to the understanding of the text with ZERO biblical support.

'Narrow' is when the text is dismissed because it doesn't overtly say what one specifically wants it to say......and maybe you can enlighten me how/where my view is so wide but don't see it?

 

[ewq1938]

'Narrow' is when the text is dismissed because it doesn't overtly say what one specifically wants it to say

lol, that still describes your view. I stick to the text, you do not. Let's prove it, where in Rev (or anywhere) does the bible say the mark of the beast is going to be people worshiping on a Sunday?

 

[quietthinker]

lol, that still describes your view. I stick to the text, you do not. Let's prove it, where in Rev (or anywhere) does the bible say the mark of the beast is going to be people worshiping on a Sunday?

like I said ewq, unless the text is overt, you miss it.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Absolutely not.

Didn’t she write she saw the New City and it’s temple?

Edit: Here is a transcript:

I saw an angel swiftly flying to me. He quickly carried me from the earth to the Holy City. In the city I saw a temple, which I entered. I passed through a door before I came to the first vail.

Problem #1

Ellen White describes seeing a temple in the Holy City. Yet John in Revelation 21:22 says, while he was viewing the Holy City,

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

There is no temple in the Holy city per God's word. If John was given divine privilege to see what God meant to be shown, how could Ellen White see something opposite of John unless what she saw was not from God, but from herself. If you think Ellen is describing God and the Lamb as the temple, she wasnt. She was describing a literal temple as she says,

This vail was raised, and I passed into the Holy Place. Here I saw the altar of Incense, the candlestick with seven lamps, and the table on which was the showbread, etc. After viewing the glory of the Holy, Jesus raised the second veil, and I passed into the Holy of Holies.

Let me know when you're ready for the next issue.

 

[ewq1938]

like I said ewq, unless the text is overt, you miss it.

Translation: My denomination can add things to scripture and that's ok with us.

 

[Brakelite]

Didn’t she write she saw the New City and it’s temple?

Edit: Here is a transcript:

I saw an angel swiftly flying to me. He quickly carried me from the earth to the Holy City. In the city I saw a temple, which I entered. I passed through a door before I came to the first vail.

Problem #1

Ellen White describes seeing a temple in the Holy City. Yet John in Revelation 21:22 says, while he was viewing the Holy City,

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

There is no temple in the Holy city per God's word. If John was given divine privilege to see what God meant to be shown, how could Ellen White see something opposite of John unless what she saw was not from God, but from herself. If you think Ellen is describing God and the Lamb as the temple, she wasnt. She was describing a literal temple as she says,

This vail was raised, and I passed into the Holy Place. Here I saw the altar of Incense, the candlestick with seven lamps, and the table on which was the showbread, etc. After viewing the glory of the Holy, Jesus raised the second veil, and I passed into the Holy of Holies.

Let me know when you're ready for the next issue.

Well, that was a magnificent attempt, and likely either yourself, or those you quoted it from, thought this a coup de gras to the ministry of Ellen White. You should have asked an Adventist, is this true, before using it as a weapon against them.
Question. Where was the city that did not have a temple, that John saw.
Supplementary question. Where was the city that did have a temple, that Ellen White saw?
Extra supplementary question. Is a temple necessary at a time when all sacrifice and intercession is no longer necessary?

 

[Brakelite]

Another question. Do you think Ellen White was so biblically illiterate she didn't notice the difference? Or for that matter, anyone since then?

 

[Brakelite]

What y'all haven't accomplished in your attacks against my church is reduced in one iota the real ongoing threat against American republicanism in the religious evangelical right pursuing political power and looking to the state as an ally in establishing righteousness and a Christian ethos in the nation.
1700 years ago Constantine, through his fake conversion and the indifference of the church to recognize that fakeness, paved the way for the Papacy 200 years later. A union of church and state that soon took upon itself the presumption to persecute all who disagreed with her doctrines... Doctrines that had over the previous 200 years been perverted by the inrush of nominal Christians from paganism...including Sunday sacredness which the Catholic Church calls the centerpiece and the hub for all other doctrine.
The elephant in the room which y'all refuse to acknowledge is the big rush today to form an image to that church/state Papal beast, and the lust for political power in order to legislate the evangelical version of righteousness to combat what it sees as a leftist strategy to destroy Christianity. But where is God in all of this? You are willing to tolerate fake conversions, even fake doctrines, in order to implement the overall strategy...take over American politics from the local school board to the White House.

KJV Revelation 13:11-15
11 And I beheld another beast (apostate protestant America) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, (the appearance of innocence)and he spake as a dragon.(Satan)
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast (the Papacy) before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, (false pentecost movement)
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, (a copy of the church/state union of the dark ages) which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak (through it's legislative branch), and cause (through it's military branch) that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The parallels scream persecution coming to all Americans who dissent from this devilish fake Christian morality which will join with Rome in demanding submission to it's doctrines and false traditions.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Well, that was a magnificent attempt, and likely either yourself, or those you quoted it from, thought this a coup de gras to the ministry of Ellen White. You should have asked an Adventist, is this true, before using it as a weapon against them.
Question. Where was the city that did not have a temple, that John saw.
Supplementary question. Where was the city that did have a temple, that Ellen White saw?
Extra supplementary question. Is a temple necessary at a time when all sacrifice and intercession is no longer necessary?

I realize you don’t see it that way, but it is that way. She said the Holy city had a temple which is false. She laters says,

And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above.

And then she mentions it again proving the holy city she’s referring to is New Jerusalem that has no temple. Of course, she refers it to in heaven before it descends. That doesn’t change the facts. I’ll post below:

And the cloudy chariot rolled upwards to the Holy City.

She referenced this city with the resurrection of the dead. She says we cannot enter the Holy City if we break the sabbath also proving she’s talking about New Jerusalem where it is said in Revelation 22

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[BarneyFife]

As I said. You confirm your error.

It's startling just how confused folks can get when they oppose the plain teachings of Scripture. This will be seen as arrogance, I'm sure, but denying oneself and humbling oneself continually to submit to correction and chastening of the LORD is something that folks just do not take to very well at all.

And most Christians (and often especially Adventists) seem to be some of the most likely to this grieve the Spirit.

The impression that most non-Sabbatarian Christians have that Adventists exclude themselves from the Laodicean condition is not without legitimate cause.

When it comes to consecration, devotion, humble service, and the associated disciplines of true religion, we fare no better than the average denomination. The Barna Research Group confirms the 5% figure that Mrs. White wrote over 100 years ago.

The average Christians has no idea that we teach such things as the majority of us apostasizing and being replaced with an even greater number of Christians and worldlings replacing them.

Or that it is largely the fault of Adventists that the world has suffered for nearly two centuries while the LORD was ready to come back shortly after the Great Disappointment of 1844.

This will surely be read as fanciful fanaticism, but I believe it should be stated for the record occasionally.

And I believe without hesitation that many who now ridicule our faith will yet see the big picture that is the great controversy between Christ and Satan, in spite of our faults and failures.

After all, those who are called out of Babylon are identified as already having believed on the LORD Jesus (Revelation 18:4). :)

 

[BarneyFife]

Are you doing those things now? On this thread? I don't see it. Just trying to convince.,,


As I said, almost all denominations do this as far as I have personally seen, read and heard about.


Diverting? Nope.


It's not the denomination that is holy, but the workers. And I know countless workers that do and are not SDA's. If you honestly think that is true, I'm not sure where you get that information from, but it's not accurate. I will say, anyone with true faith in Christ and whoever uses their time for Him -That includes soul winning, preaching the gospel, is a good thing.

.
.
You're mostly preaching to the choir here. And you're conflating the relation of mere information as "convincing."

The church was founded to be organized and productive in teaching, baptizing, and making disciples.

Anti-denominationalism is just another fad/ism. It will pass. Most of our fellow forum members are staunchly suspicious of organized Gospel work. Very unfortunate, but understandable. Most people, even Christians, are influenced far more by their environment than by Scripture.

I don't care how many people ultimately call themselves Seventh-day Adventists. I just want to see them in the Kingdom of Heaven. Most of them will have gone down to Catholic graves. It's just a matter of circumstance.

God has His people in all communions. At the end of time, however, all of those among the living will be 7th-day Sabbath-keepers. You can count on it.

They will recognize that the Spirit of Christ could not be actuating those who persecute keepers of God's commandments. :)
.
.

 

[BarneyFife]

Do you agree she’s a false prophet?

.
.
What reason would he have for doing that?
.
.

And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above.

.
.
Reading this statement carefully, I can't see why any Christian would have a problem with it. How could anyone "receive the blessing attending it" if it were false or unauthentic? If they kept the Sabbath without believing or receiving a blessing, how could they be blamed for giving it up?

Romans 14:23: And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

James 4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.



.
.

 

[BarneyFife]

You avoid that SDA teach the GT is directed at them and their beliefs.

.
.
The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.—EGW - The Great Controversy, p. 614

As is customary in the criticism of Mrs. White, single statements are taken out of context and represented as maxims.

.
.

 

[No Pre-TB]

God has His people in all communions. At the end of time, however, all of those among the living will be 7th-day Sabbath-keepers. You can count on it.

They will recognize that the Spirit of Christ could not be actuating those who persecute keepers of God's commandments.

I agree that God has people in all communions. Denominations are not what make someone a child of God.

However, I don’t agree that you must observe a physical literal sabbath.

 

[ewq1938]

.
.
The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.—EGW - The Great Controversy, p. 614

As is customary in the criticism of Mrs. White, single statements are taken out of context and represented as maxims.

.
.

So which people of which religion/denomination do you believe will be arrested and killed in the GT? Which people of which religion/denomination do you believe will be taking the mark?

 

[ewq1938]

God has His people in all communions. At the end of time, however, all of those among the living will be 7th-day Sabbath-keepers.
.

There it is. The only saved people will have been keeping the Saturday Sabbath. The rest of Christianity don't get eternal life. QFT.

 

[Brakelite]

I realize you don’t see it that way, but it is that way. She said the Holy city had a temple which is false. She laters says,

And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above.

And then she mentions it again proving the holy city she’s referring to is New Jerusalem that has no temple. Of course, she refers it to in heaven before it descends. That doesn’t change the facts. I’ll post below:

And the cloudy chariot rolled upwards to the Holy City.

She referenced this city with the resurrection of the dead. She says we cannot enter the Holy City if we break the sabbath also proving she’s talking about New Jerusalem where it is said in Revelation 22

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

You aren't listening. I didn't deny that Ellen White spoke of the New Jerusalem. But I will ask again, and for this you need to study your Bible.
Where was the city that Ellen White was referring to?
Where was the city when John saw it?
It's a seriously important difference, particularly when you are relying on that information in order to denigrate God's people.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Where was the city that Ellen White was referring to?
Where was the city when John saw it?

Already answered if you read my replies

 

[Brakelite]

She said the Holy city had a temple which is false.

KJV Revelation 15:5-8
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

When John saw the city that by then had no temple, it was descending out of heaven to the earth at the end of the 1000 years, for Christ our High Priest had finished His ministry of intercession and therefore no temple was necessary. KJV Revelation 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it .


The city that Ellen White saw was still in heaven, Christ was still ministering in the temple.

 

[ewq1938]

You aren't listening. I didn't deny that Ellen White spoke of the New Jerusalem. But I will ask again, and for this you need to study your Bible.
Where was the city that Ellen White was referring to?
Where was the city when John saw it?
It's a seriously important difference, particularly when you are relying on that information in order to denigrate God's people.

Where the city is doesn't matter. It does not contain a temple.