You cannot compare the delineation of a book, and a god-man. The requirement to reference or define, one as opposed to the other, are at diametrical degrees to each other.
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...because neither of those two words are in the Bible. ...round and round we go...
@DNB
1. Who created all things that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, a creature or God? Answer: God
2. Who is before all things, a creature or God? Answer: God
3. In whom do all things consist, a creature or God? Answer: God.
Scriptures testifies this truth concerning Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Tong
R1034
@justbyfaith
Tong2020 said: ↑
Scriptures says that faith comes to one by hearing the word of God,
So, tell us, what does scriptures say how faith comes?
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Tong2020 said: ↑
If you understood verse 18 in context and not misuse it, go ahead and tell us, how would Judah and Jerusalem reason with God that would make their sins be as white as snow?
Since you say, it is in the same way that any Gentile might reason with God so that their sins will be as white as snow, tell us HOW?
Tong
R1036
Tong2020 said: ↑
Scriptures says that faith comes to one by hearing the word of God,
So, tell us, what does scriptures say how faith comes?
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Tong2020 said: ↑
If you understood verse 18 in context and not misuse it, go ahead and tell us, how would Judah and Jerusalem reason with God that would make their sins be as white as snow?
The question remains, in Isaiah 1:18, how would Judah and Jerusalem reason with God that would make their sins be as white as snow?
Since you say, it is in the same way that any Gentile might reason with God so that their sins will be as white as snow, tell us HOW?
Tong
R1036
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I suppose that it is different for every individual, concerning the details of what is reasoned out...but suffice it to say that the reasoning capabilities of the individual become involved in the person coming to faith in Jesus Christ (cf. Isaiah 1:18).
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Bible means Book, were you unaware? Sacred Book is throughout the Scriptures. You are not admitting the truth.
I would call on you to show chapter and verse.
The incarnation is taught in holy scripture; in John 1:14 and 1 Timothy 3:16 (kjv) and elsewhere (I'm certain).
The pre-existence of Jesus is also taught in holy scripture, in that John the Baptist was conceived and born six months before Jesus was conceived and born (Luke chapters 1 and 2); and how John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus existed before him (in John 1).
And this is the point that I would make: that regardless of whether the words "sacred Book" is found in holy scripture, the concepts of the incarnation and the pre-existence of Christ can be found in holy scripture; and that the specific words "incarnation" and "pre-existence of Christ" do not need to be anywhere in holy scripture for the concepts to be taught there.
Because since the concepts are in fact taught, the teaching of them is found in holy scripture and therefore it cannot be denied that the holy scripture teaches them as concepts.
Regarding the matter on how faith comes, apparently you had not a single word regarding it, which renders your claim as refuted.
Regarding the matter on your strange teaching that the sinner use his human reasoning capabilities and reason with the Lord, in order that his sins which are as scarlet, may be made as white as snow, you have not shown HOW is that with the Jews and also with the Gentiles. To make it even easier for you to tell us HOW and so defend such teaching, perhaps you can tell us how you, in your case, reasoned with God so that your sins which are as scarlet, were made as white as snow.
Tong
R1037
I don't really remember any more what the reasoning process was that first led me to believe in God, that was over 30 years ago.
I do know that at one point I simply gave up on my arguments and said to God, "I don't know if You're real; but I'm going to start reading Your word and doing what it says and I know that if You're real, You will reveal Yourself to me." And the Lord did reveal Himself to me in those very moments.
But in this, I may have in fact been an exception to the rule, in that the rule exists in that a man normally has his reasons why he will not surrender to God; and he then goes to the Bible and reasons with God in the Bible, or perhaps, he reasons with what the preacher has said; and in the end of those reasonings he comes to the conclusion that it is indeed foolishness to hold back surrender to God. And so, he surrenders to God as the result of having come to the conclusion that to not do so is the uttermost foolishness.
I do know that at one point I simply gave up on my arguments and said to God, "I don't know if You're real; but I'm going to start reading Your word and doing what it says and I know that if You're real, You will reveal Yourself to me." And the Lord did reveal Himself to me in those very moments.
But in this, I may have in fact been an exception to the rule, in that the rule exists in that a man normally has his reasons why he will not surrender to God; and he then goes to the Bible and reasons with God in the Bible, or perhaps, he reasons with what the preacher has said; and in the end of those reasonings he comes to the conclusion that it is indeed foolishness to hold back surrender to God. And so, he surrenders to God as the result of having come to the conclusion that to not do so is the uttermost foolishness.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Most assuredly, I say to you, faith comes as the result of what God said in Isaiah 1:18, and that is the "word" that I speak regarding it, so my claim is not rendered as refuted, as you say.
Because the terminology is not there, then such an esoteric and implausible concept is not to be adhered to. In other words, your interpretation of the texts that you cited, are not exegetically viable. You need a radical testimony, in order to substantiate a radical concept and conclusion. Thus, the onus is not on anyone to find specific words for very common articles and occurrences, as the Bible or Atonement or propitiation etc.... But, on the converse, the nomenclature is obligatory in order to prove the unfathomable.
Throughout scriptures, one's sins which are as scarlet, were never said to have been made as white as snow by one's arguing and reasoning with God, but scriptures speaks of having faith in God and how faith comes to those chosen by God to send His word.
You testified "And the Lord did reveal Himself to me in those very moments." Perhaps, but does that not mean He did that because you reasoned "I don't know if You're real; but I'm going to start reading Your word and doing what it says and I know that if You're real, You will reveal Yourself to me." Besides, is what you say there what you mean by reasoning with God, which have your sins made as white as snow? Well, is that what you really teach and tell people so that their sins be made as white as snow? I could not even say whether what you say there speaks of faith or what. Your statement of "I don't know if You're real", to me, is not a statement of faith but of uncertainty or doubt. The rest of your statement, being based on that, would then be out of uncertainty and doubt. However, this is what scriptures teach in relation to that, that without faith, it is impossible to please God. No amount of reason and reasoning then could please God that would have God make one's sins as white as snow.
Regarding what you say there as the rule, you said "he then goes to the Bible and reasons with God in the Bible". Could you explain what you really mean by "reasons with God in the Bible"?
Also, you said "or perhaps, he reasons with what the preacher has said". Could you explain what you really mean by that?
Also, you said "in the end of those reasonings he comes to the conclusion that it is indeed foolishness to hold back surrender to God. And so, he surrenders to God as the result of having come to the conclusion that to not do so is the uttermost foolishness." So it is clear that in your POV, it's all really a matter of reasoning and conclusion based on reasoning, that one comes to surrender to God.
I have mentioned Abraham as an example to refute and expose the error of such POV. For Abraham had not even attempted to reason with God when God called him and said "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” It is having faith, not having reason nor of reasoning, that Abraham obeyed God when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. That my friend, according to human wisdom, is unreasonable and is foolishness. Abraham did not use human wisdom and reasoning, but had faith, so that He obeyed God, else, he would had not.
Tong
R1039
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Actually, according to YOUR BIBLES, Jesus was not sinless. -- In TRUTH HE was, but not according to YOUR BIBLES.
And it's a little dramatic to assert that a GAUNTLET has been thrown down, -- but it has. And who'd be so bold as to defend YOUR version of Scripture? Not too many I suspect, so I can rest easy ...
Bobby Jo
And it's a little dramatic to assert that a GAUNTLET has been thrown down, -- but it has. And who'd be so bold as to defend YOUR version of Scripture? Not too many I suspect, so I can rest easy ...
Bobby Jo
It is refuted by the truth that faith does not come by using human wisdom and reasoning, but by hearing the word of God.
I have already given you Abraham as an example that clearly refutes your teaching there which comes from a misuse of scriptures in Isaiah 1:18, which by the way you have not even attempted to refute. Besides, you can't even tell us how one, by his reasoning with God, have his sins made as white as snow by that. You just keep insisting that what you teach is not false and is correct and keep claiming that it is what scriptures teach. And here, you seem to twist the issue we have with Isaiah 1:18, saying now that faith comes as a result of reasoning with God.
You have here all the opportunity to prove your teaching if it is in keeping with scriptures. So, please go ahead and show us scriptures that presents to us how faith comes by reasoning with God. Give at least one example in scriptures of anybody whose sins were made as white as snow by his reasoning with God that I can consider and examine. Give at least one example in scriptures of anybody who have faith by his reasoning with God that I can consider and examine. If not, then I am sorry to say, that only means that what you teach is of your own making and not from scriptures.
Tong
R1040
They are in fact exegetically viable; because they teach the things that I say they teach.
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That is ridiculous. For it is written thus in Isaiah 1:18. I suppose that next, you are going to say that Isaiah 1:18 is not in holy scripture.
It would be a statement akin to what was spoken by the man whose son was stricken by the demon that cast him into the fire and into the water, "Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief!"
Besides, if there were no faith involved, why do you suppose that the Lord answered so readily with waves of liquid love? Does God answer a person who has no faith at all, whatsoever?
I will refute it by saying that scripture does not nullify other scripture; for there are no contradictions in the Bible. Therefore, your Abraham passage is not going to contradict Isaiah 1:18.
Isaiah 1:18.
Naaman the Syrian. According to his own reasoning, the rivers of his own nation were better than the Jordan. But his servant told him, "If the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it?" Naaman listened to reason and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times; and his leprosy was healed. But not apart from reasoning with God.
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
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