What good does it do for someone to show you that your understanding forces the Word of God to be contradictive? You think the proper way to discern Scripture is by taking a single verse or passage out of its context, not to prove truth, but rather to prove what you THINK. It would appear you've been studying in this manner for many years, and yet you still cannot see how one verse out of context cannot prove a doctrine if it causes contradiction in another passage. I too have studied the Bible for a number of years and have sought greater understanding through not only the writings of Old, but also those who have a great more biblical knowledge than I have. After all the years of studying and cross referencing the Scriptures, with these aids, and many more, I learned many years ago that when anyone comes to an understanding that causes disharmony and contradiction it must be filed in the bin labeled UNSOUND BIBLICAL DOCTRINE, and we must not let our pride keep us from accepting truth.
How Jesus has ALREADY Reconciled Us and the World unto God.
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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What good does it do for someone to show you that your understanding forces the Word of God to be contradictive? You think the proper way to discern Scripture is by taking a single verse or passage out of its context, not to prove truth, but rather to prove what you THINK. It would appear you've been studying in this manner for many years, and yet you still cannot see how one verse out of context cannot prove a doctrine if it causes contradiction in another passage. I too have studied the Bible for a number of years and have sought greater understanding through not only the writings of Old, but also those who have a great more biblical knowledge than I have. After all the years of studying and cross referencing the Scriptures, with these aids, and many more, I learned many years ago that when anyone comes to an understanding that causes disharmony and contradiction it must be filed in the bin labeled UNSOUND BIBLICAL DOCTRINE, and we must not let our pride keep us from accepting truth.
If Christs death doesnt cover unbelief, how did His death reconcile them to God ? Weren't they reconciled to God as enemies, unbelievers ? How can that be if their unbelief isnt covered by the death of Christ ?
Others their unbelief shows them to be condemned, not reconciled Jn 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I see everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ". You apparently see everything in the light of the Mosiac law, that has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. "Christ is the end of the law (religion) for righteousness for those that believe" Romans 10:4. You are trying to feed a dead horse.
In the Gospel Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil. Proof of this is that he now sits in heaven as, "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16. The ball is now in humanities court. The law has been fulfilled; all sin has been atoned for. God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is the New Adam and the representative of the human race. Jesus has victoriously reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. But if you don't believe in Jesus NOTHING is yours and you are still in your sins.
@Robert Pate
Then you must believe in and teach #1 Universalism which constitutes all humanity is reconciled and saved, and none shall perish, or that men can perish even after having been saved and reconciled to God by Christs death, lose their salvation, which both are dishonoring to God and His Christ.
Then you must believe in and teach #1 Universalism which constitutes all humanity is reconciled and saved, and none shall perish, or that men can perish even after having been saved and reconciled to God by Christs death, lose their salvation, which both are dishonoring to God and His Christ.
Naaaa, you don't get it. For the tenth time, nothing is ours until it is received by faith. No faith, no salvation. No one can be lost after they are saved if they continue to trust in Christ.
No one denies this! The problem is your insistence that Christ has come to save everyone, without also acknowledging "everyone who believes." Surely you can see the difference? Christ came to save mankind without distinction, but not without exception, because many are already lost in their sins.
I believe the more biblically accurate way to define who salvation has been provided for is to repeat Christ when He says. For the Bible speaks of more than the salvation for all who shall believe. It also tells us that all of creation shall be saved through Christ.
John 3:15-21 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Through the sacrificial work of Christ the whole of creation (world) shall be saved through Him. Whosoever among humanity that believe in Him HAVE eternal life, but the one who does not believe is condemned already through unbelief. All who love the light of Christ, come to Him, "that his deeds may be made manifest, THAT THEY ARE WROUGHT IN GOD."
John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
In this, we understand how salvation has come into all the world, and all who are His people, according to grace through faith, shall be saved. Harmony of the Scriptures, lacking confusion introduced into the Word of God by selectively quoting without considering the whole.
Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
I think what you lack understanding about is that Christ provides salvation for all that God created. Through Him creation shall be saved, as well as whosoever lives and believes in Him.
This is true, however once this first heaven and earth passes away, because of Christ's sacrificial life, death and resurrection there will be a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness. God's glorious creation shall be saved through the obedience of Christ to do all the work the Father gave Him to do. All of creation is waiting for the day when even itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption that came when sin, and death through sin were introduced into creation.
Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Romans 8:19-22 (KJV) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
God and his Son Jesus Christ like new things. They are not interested in rehabilitating old things. Like man's fallen nature. In the Gospel Jesus puts to death the whole human race in himself, Romans 6:4-7. The resurrection of Jesus is our new humanity and our new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
Not sure what you're talking about, since I never said anything about rehabilitating old things. In fact the verses I gave you tells us all things shall be made new! Even those who die in Christ shall be resurrected to immortal & incorruptible body. We participate in the life, death, burial and resurrection through Christ and His Spirit in us.
Ambassadors for Christ
11Therefore, since we know what it means to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is clear to God, and I hope it is clear to your conscience as well.12We are not commending ourselves to you again. Instead, we are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you can answer those who take pride in appearances rather than in the heart.
13If we are out of our mind, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.14For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.
16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.a The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God.21God made Him who knew no sin to be sinb on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Again you either believe in universalism, all are saved, reconciled or you believe people having been saved, reconciled can lose their reconciliation with God which was established by the death of Christ, which is dishonoring to Christs Death accomplishment.
UNIVERSALISM: Everyone is saved regardless of what they believe. THE GOSPEL: Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil in our name and on our behalf.
RECONCILIATION: Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus, who is God's representative, the whole world has been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. This is a one-way reconciliation. It is possible to be reconciled to someone without them being reconciled to you. This reconciliation is not ours unless it is received.
It appears to me that you are a Calvinist that cannot believe people have the ability to choose.
You said everyone is reconciled to God regardless of what they believe. Thats universalism. The reconciled are saved by His life Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And you said this
So here you are saying everyone is born saved regardless of what they believe. So you are being inconsistent !
You are taking what I said out of context.
Everyone is born saved because salvation has ALREADY been provided for everyone. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.
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