"IF I BE LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH" - Denominationalism, Congregationalism, And Pluralism

[BarneyFife]

I've been known to be a little scatter-brained. I tend to think that everything relates to everything. Please forgive me if I get off track.

I'm getting to the point in my participation here that I'm beginning to think of myself as invested in this virtual community. So I care about the people who gather here. Some of what is said worries, frustrates, and/or frightens me. I have an understanding of end-time prophecy that I believe very truly. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But the gist of it is that at the very end, good and evil will rise to a cataclysmic, crashing crescendo that will make it necessary for Jesus to intervene with His second coming.

I know it sounds dramatic, but for the longest time I have been impressed (almost constantly) by the prayer of Jesus in John 17. I think Jesus is everything. And I think He really means what He says.

I've been accused of suggesting that some Scripture is more inspired than others. And in some cases, I think the accusation is valid, in a way. I'm just being transparent here but I think of the Word of God as food. And to related to taste, I think of most of Scripture as bread, but the words that are printed in red ink in many Bibles are like a hot fudge sundae. Men's words are like thin air unless they express God's Word. I've believed this way since I was a little kid. I know this will put some people off and I'm sorry for that, especially to those who are downright offended by it.

I don't think Jesus is getting what He asked for. That is the tragedy of tragedies. I know it will all work out for Him in the end, but I feel guilty for my part in denying Him His petition, and I just wonder if anyone else feels that way. I believe we have a part to play in the outcome.

He says in John 17:11:

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

How is this going to be achieved, one might wonder. I believe the answer is found here:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me. (John 12:32)

How close does He expect to draw all unto Him? I can't help but think the answer is:

As close as absolutely possible

So how close will we be to each other when we portray Him to each other as being lifted up and are then drawn as close to Him as is possible?

Does anyone think we have done our part to achieve this?

Am I being unreasonable or idealistic?

Or do we need revival and reformation?

Or is it enough that we are just found in the "saved" column of the books?

Should we care about how Jesus feels or should our own spiritual safety be the all-encompassing priority in our lives?

Is our allegiance to our denominations, congregations, or personally-held theologies keeping us from doing our part to fulfill the wishes of our Saviour?

For my part, I believe the answer is "Yes" to all three.

In fact, I doubt that anyone can rightly answer "No" to the question because I don't believe it's a matter of whether any of us are guilty or not, but in what manner, to what extent, and what our intentions are to rectify our guilt.

I guess this could be swept away as a leveling of false accusation for some and, if that be the case, I can accept that.

The creation of this thread and its original post is not, in any way, meant to be a call for debating doctrines, but if it deteriorates into that, I can accept it.

CC:
@amadeus @Backlit @Ronald David Bruno @Ronald Nolette @bbyrd009 @Desire Of All Nations @David in NJ @Truman @Heart2Soul @Josho @Ferris Bueller @quietthinker @WalterandDebbie @theefaith @marks @charity @TLHKAJ @liafailrock @FluffyYellowDuck @Sabertooth @Taken @Rita @MatthewG @JohnPaul @Cassandra @Eternally Grateful

 

[bbyrd009]

at the very end, good and evil will rise to a cataclysmic, crashing crescendo that will make it necessary for Jesus to intervene with His second coming.

thats what happened to me

Is our allegiance to our denominations, congregations, or personally-held theologies keeping us from doing our part to fulfill the wishes of our Saviour?

For my part, I believe the answer is "Yes" to all three

word

 

[BarneyFife]

thats what happened to me
word

Perhaps, the 3rd coming, then?

 

[Abaxvahl]

I know it sounds dramatic, but for the longest time I have been impressed (almost constantly) by the prayer of Jesus in John 17. I think Jesus is everything. And I think He really means what He says.

I've been accused of suggesting that some Scripture is more inspired than others. And in some cases, I think the accusation is valid, in a way. I'm just being transparent here but I think of the Word of God as food. And to related to taste, I think of most of Scripture as bread, but the words that are printed in red ink in many Bibles are like a hot fudge sundae. Men's words are like thin air unless they express God's Word. I've believed this way since I was a little kid. I know this will put some people off and I'm sorry for that, especially to those who are downright offended by it.

I don't think Jesus is getting what He asked for. That is the tragedy of tragedies. I know it will all work out for Him in the end, but I feel guilty for my part in denying Him His petition, and I just wonder if anyone else feels that way. I believe we have a part to play in the outcome.

He says in John 17:11:

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

How is this going to be achieved, one might wonder. I believe the answer is found here:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me. (John 12:32)

How close does He expect to draw all unto Him? I can't help but think the answer is:

As close as absolutely possible

So how close will we be to each other when we portray Him to each other as being lifted up and are then drawn as close to Him as is possible?

On some Scripture being more inspired than others: I don't actually think you're wrong on this. Some Scripture is more "to the point" than others. Yes the book of Numbers is divinely inspired and so is St. John's Gospel, but seriously: St. John's Gospel leads you more directly to Christ than the former. If Christ is the "Alpha and Omega," in other words: the beginning and end point of things, then anything which more directly focuses on that is in some way... better? I am not sure if that's the write word, but hopefully you get what I mean.

On the "that they may be one" and "draw all to me": one thing someone pointed out to me recently was that word "draw" there (and elsewhere in John) is "drag" (in Greek). I like the force of that image.

Are you being idealistic and unreasonable? Jesus who is Truth saw fit to pray so, so I don't think so.

Do we need revival? Always. No revival is in fact enough, but we need to perpetually draw near to God. A point is often made that: if God is infinite His love is infinite, the Lord Jesus wants us to love as God loves, so we will always be approaching that, which is the meaning of the Psalm saying "Your commandments are exceedingly broad," the commandment of love is "infinitely broad."

Reformation? When we depart from form, yes. I wouldn't say the world and Christendom is particularly "in form" right now, so yes.

 

[Brakelite]

Fluffy started a thread which I believe is somewhat related to this. There's a sense of unease and a sense of coming trouble in society that I believe will make the BLM riots in America pale. I firmly believe this uneasiness is God trying to wake up His people. Western society has been at ease for a long time. The technical comforts and wealth has put us to sleep. We no longer wholly rely on God any more and have become self sufficient. So dangerous to our faith to become independently self sufficient.
Like you Barney I have become invested in this forum. Over the years I've come to know these people, and many of them I would consider genuine friends, despite our parting of the ways over some doctrine. And I think that if we met in real life, those observing us would hesitate to believe we have anything in common. That's what I love about church. It brings people together who otherwise would not give each other the time of day. Jesus has brought us together. And this forum is no different.
Thing is though, I see a spirit of animosity creeping in that saddens me. And I have found myself partaking at times of that same spirit. The animosity that is become so prevalent in the world is insinuating itself into the church. That's the uneasiness I feel that fluffy was speaking of in her thread. It's fast becoming a time of now or never that we circumcise our hearts and minds of the impediments of the flesh and filth that drag us down.
Revival and reformation? Totally. And it begins at the cross.

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps, the 3rd coming, then?

God only knows huh

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I firmly believe this uneasiness is God trying to wake up His people.

I am sure He is waking some people up. Most of us are awake and watching this One World Government take over. Not much we can do about it -it's prophesied that the Antichrist will do this. Fortunately, as the story goes, it won't last long. We just need to persevere and hold onto our faith.

Western society has been at ease for a long time. The technical comforts and wealth has put us to sleep.

Yes, my Pastor twenty-five years ago used to tell us we were rich and too much in our comfort zones. I kind of used to disagree with him a little. Jesus' yoke is easy and His burden is light. He wants us to live life in the FULL, with all our needs met and provided for. Yes, we can relax and get lazy. I'm retired, comfortable and just do what I need to do. I live life in the FULL. It could be better. I could be a better Christian too - but I am content with where I am. Contentment is key, Paul taught this. And then we have the Comforter for our spiritual comfort ... guardians angels protecting us as well -- we are special.

Over the years I've come to know these people, and many of them I would consider genuine friends, despite our parting of the ways over some doctrine.

I have mentioned this before. Itnis difficult to make genuine friends online. We really need to break bread together, experience real unedited communication. People hide behind the net, pretend they are something more than they are.
They sound smart ... after they've researched, cut and paste and given their response as if it came right off the top of their heads. People also treat others with less respect, manners and can be offensive because they know they can get away with it. They wouldn't behave that way face to face. So it is possible as you say to have an online relationship, like the older era pen pal - if you are both honest.
I walk my dog in the morning, actually a few times a day, and I have met neighbors who also walk their dogs. I have made friends and enjoy their company. It is a real relationship and transparent. The dialogue is in real time and there is nothing to hide behind, no way to pretend. One of my buddies I walk with makes me laugh all the time and we are on the same page on most topics. I look forward to our walks, our dogs do too. I don't think any online relationship could compare with up front and personal, face to face relationships - you know this.
But we try to assist and be helpful _ from a distance and in an intangable way.

Revival and reformation?

Revive or reform into what? I think the Church, as imperfect as it may be, is exactly where it is supposed to be. Jesus is the Head of the Church, and in control - isn't He? Judgment is what's next. I do think when we get deep into the Great Tribulation when mass amounts of people are dying it will naturally wake up and revive some people who have been on the fence. Remember when 9/11 happened, the churches were packed with people seeking God. Oh yes, disaster and fear have that affect on people.

 

[marks]

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me. (John 12:32)

How close does He expect to draw all unto Him? I can't help but think the answer is:

As close as absolutely possible

So how close will we be to each other when we portray Him to each other as being lifted up and are then drawn as close to Him as is possible?

Does anyone think we have done our part to achieve this?

The more "lifted up" we are, the closer we will be together.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am sure He is waking some people up. Most of us are awake and watching this One World Government take over.

And we are relying on the Lord, and we are in lots of unity. Like you say, IRL is not like online.

Much love!

 

[marks]

-it's prophesied that the Antichrist will do this. Fortunately, as the story goes, it won't last long. We just need to persevere and hold onto our faith.

Although if this is still birth pangs, it could go on for some time. Just the same, we have need of endurance.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

@BarnyFife
Jesus was right on track. When did his followers begin to scatter [brains too?]. What was Judas? Who was the one already casting out devils but not among the immediate physical followers of Jesus? [Mark 9:38-40]

Must it be here or all alone? In that flesh alone that is, but gathered together spiritually in his name?

“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” Matt 18:20

Jesus was seemingly ready to walk away from all of them. Can we do that?

“From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?” John 6:66-67

Perhaps Jesus could have done so, but hopefully we all at least are like Peter in this...

“Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69

If we must be there, let us hold fast to our Lord so that we are on the side of Good, that is on God’s side, as He comes against the evil.

Are his words to his Father in that chapter [John 17] more inspired than others in scripture?

Those words expressing hope throughout the gospels would be fulfilled by only those persons who surrendered truly in love for God.

Some of his words, especially in John 17 and Matt chapters 5 though 7 will be manifest for sure in those who really do choose to be included by what they do...

What is now manifested in this moment in us?

Help us dear God!

 

[Wynona]

I've been known to be a little scatter-brained. I tend to think that everything relates to everything. Please forgive me if I get off track.

I'm getting to the point in my participation here that I'm beginning to think of myself as invested in this virtual community. So I care about the people who gather here. Some of what is said worries, frustrates, and/or frightens me. I have an understanding of end-time prophecy that I believe very truly. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But the gist of it is that at the very end, good and evil will rise to a cataclysmic, crashing crescendo that will make it necessary for Jesus to intervene with His second coming.

I know it sounds dramatic, but for the longest time I have been impressed (almost constantly) by the prayer of Jesus in John 17. I think Jesus is everything. And I think He really means what He says.

I've been accused of suggesting that some Scripture is more inspired than others. And in some cases, I think the accusation is valid, in a way. I'm just being transparent here but I think of the Word of God as food. And to related to taste, I think of most of Scripture as bread, but the words that are printed in red ink in many Bibles are like a hot fudge sundae. Men's words are like thin air unless they express God's Word. I've believed this way since I was a little kid. I know this will put some people off and I'm sorry for that, especially to those who are downright offended by it.

I don't think Jesus is getting what He asked for. That is the tragedy of tragedies. I know it will all work out for Him in the end, but I feel guilty for my part in denying Him His petition, and I just wonder if anyone else feels that way. I believe we have a part to play in the outcome.

He says in John 17:11:

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

How is this going to be achieved, one might wonder. I believe the answer is found here:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me. (John 12:32)

How close does He expect to draw all unto Him? I can't help but think the answer is:

As close as absolutely possible

So how close will we be to each other when we portray Him to each other as being lifted up and are then drawn as close to Him as is possible?

Does anyone think we have done our part to achieve this?

Am I being unreasonable or idealistic?

Or do we need revival and reformation?

Or is it enough that we are just found in the "saved" column of the books?

Should we care about how Jesus feels or should our own spiritual safety be the all-encompassing priority in our lives?

Is our allegiance to our denominations, congregations, or personally-held theologies keeping us from doing our part to fulfill the wishes of our Saviour?

For my part, I believe the answer is "Yes" to all three.

In fact, I doubt that anyone can rightly answer "No" to the question because I don't believe it's a matter of whether any of us are guilty or not, but in what manner, to what extent, and what our intentions are to rectify our guilt.

I guess this could be swept away as a leveling of false accusation for some and, if that be the case, I can accept that.

The creation of this thread and its original post is not, in any way, meant to be a call for debating doctrines, but if it deteriorates into that, I can accept it.

CC:
@amadeus @Backlit @Ronald David Bruno @Ronald Nolette @bbyrd009 @Desire Of All Nations @David in NJ @Truman @Heart2Soul @Josho @Ferris Bueller @quietthinker @WalterandDebbie @theefaith @marks @charity @TLHKAJ @liafailrock @FluffyYellowDuck @Sabertooth @Taken @Rita @MatthewG @JohnPaul @Cassandra @Eternally Grateful

What do you think being 'one' as Jesus intended look like?

 

[Wynona]

I don't see denominations as the problem. Ive never thought less of any Christian based on denomination alone.

Ive fellowshipped and worshiped in multiple denominations. And Ive seen Kingdom minded people who also love their denomination and are fine.

 

[marks]

I don't see denominations as the problem. Ive never thought less of any Christian based on denomination alone.

Ive fellowshipped and worshiped in multiple denominations. And Ive seen Kingdom minded people who also love their denomination and are fine.

Ditto.

I think it comes down to the individual congregation and leaders.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

Ditto.

I think it comes down to the individual congregation and leaders.

Much love!

Ain't that the truth. I've been to one or two of my church's congregations to which I shall never return. Such incongruence however shall never persuade me against the basic Godly foundation my church was built on.

 

[marks]

Ain't that the truth. I've been to one or two of my church's congregations to which I shall never return. Such incongruence however shall never persuade me against the basic Godly foundation my church was built on.

Exactly!

I see no benefit in judging the true according to the false.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

I don't see denominations as the problem. Ive never thought less of any Christian based on denomination alone.

Ive fellowshipped and worshiped in multiple denominations. And Ive seen Kingdom minded people who also love their denomination and are fine.

Don't you find that there's a difference between denomination and denominationalism? Congregation and congregationalism?

 

[Wynona]

Don't you find that there's a difference between denomination and denominationalism? Congregation and congregationalism?

I suppose so.

Denominations are harmless but denominationalism not so much.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @BarnyFife

I don’t understand what it is you’re seeking to know, after reading your post.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I don't think Jesus is getting what He asked for.

For us, The Body Of CHRIST, Today, Under GRACE, What Exactly Did "He ask for"?

What do you think being 'one' as Jesus intended look like?

The Spiritual Fact is: Are we not "all ONE In CHRIST"? But experientially, we are all Divided up, denominationally {or denominationalismally?} speaking, Correct?

Please don't read me wrong, I came out of it all, but the people were mostly loving and wonderful. However, where was Sound Bible Doctrine? Thus, I too, am Very Concerned, In The Light Of our "calling":

"God Is Faithful, By Whom ye Were Called unto the fellowship of His SON Jesus Christ our LORD. Now I beseech you, brethren, By The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1_Corinthians_1:9-10)

Wouldn't that be Great Revival IF "all denominations joined TOGETHER, sorted out the Differences," and then obeyed the above, and this?:

"Endeavouring To keep The Unity Of The Spirit In the Bond Of PEACE!" (Ephesians_4:3)?

I personally believe {but could be mistaken} that "water" is the MAIN Divider,
and have plenty of questions {in baptism # 9} about All The Confusion
{my current list has 10 Different denominational 'water' traditions on, IF you would like me to "post" them...}, and SOLVING that First MIGHT be a Good Start to "looking like Being ONE," Correct?:

"Divider" Poll 13 Bible baptisms

But that's just me...

Love to all...