If The Kingdom isn't here yet then what is JESUS CHRIST a King of?
- Thread starter pittsburghjoe
- Start date
-
- Tags
- kingdom of god
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Satan has been defeated....that is a foregone conclusion ratified by Jesus resurrection. God's Kingdom is assured. The dragon has been defeated however his tail is still whipping around, so to speak....at least on this Earth. The tiding up process is underway. In the interim, all who would join his Kingdom are invited.
Sooo, one can answer your question depending on the perspective. From God's perspective the lost kingdom of Earth has been 'bought back' and it's dissident (earth) reconciled even while its inhabitants are awaiting 'settlement'
From man's perspective the battle still rages (we suffer).....however we live by faith in what God has accomplished in Jesus to become physical reality on Jesus return when this mortal shall put on immortality 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
- Jan 26, 2017
- 9,692
- 7,949
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
not that it will change anything but on atheists sites they give quotes of how the bible is riddled with many contradictions. One contradiction posted is:
“Awake, awake clothe yourself in your strength, O Zion; Clothe yourself in your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the Holy City; For the uncircumcised and the unclean will no longer come into you.”
the reasoning on the site of why this is a contradiction and completely false “for the uncircumcised and the unclean will no longer come into you” …isn’t that different from “even though the majority of Jews in today's nation state of Israel still treat Jesus of Nazareth as a seditionist”.
Their argument being “just look at Jerusalem today! Do you see any uncircumcised or unclean go into the Holy City Jerusalem? That has to be an error!”
How can the uncircumcised and the unclean no longer come into the Holy City Jerusalem?
Awake, awake…clothe yourself in your beautiful garments. Awake, awake and “put on” your beautiful garments” “For the uncircumcised and the unclean will no longer come into you.” ? Colossians 2:11 In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
put on your beautiful garments?
Galatians 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
This was already posted in the thread, but can i get your take on it?
Does Matthew 19:28
"in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,"
match with Revelation 20:4
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"
or Revelation 20:11
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away"?
What is the purpose of these multiple thrones in 20:4? Why does it say "judgment was given unto them"?
Are their mini judgments happening during our physical lives?
Is the following related?
Ephesians 2:4-8
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This is the declaration of the start of the 1000 years. We then get Revelation 13 and the interruption of Satan's control:
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
The declaration of chapter 11 did not last the week. Daniel 9:27
"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
If Satan is given 42 months, the declaration of Revelation 11 is put on hold for another 3.5 years. Then at Armageddon, Christ will reclaim those kingdoms and stop the abomination of desolation.
The 7th Trumpet being sounded includes or negates Satan's 42 months. If souls are still redeemable, then they will be eternally saved during this time by having their heads chopped off to avoid the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast indicates one's rejection of the Gospel and their name removed from the Lamb's book of life. Those who have been decapitated will remain in the Lamb's book of life. They will be resurrected at the start of the 1000 years in Revelation 20:4. No where in past history do we have people redeemed by having their heads chopped off and then resurrected within 42 months. To never being subjected to death again. This is only a Second Coming event in the future. Paul states the symbolic form of crucifying the flesh comes after the second birth, so the Holy Spirit has full control. Nothing in there about cutting one's head off, literally nor symbolically to enter the 2nd birth.
The 2nd birth allows one to be an ambassador and citizen of Paradise. Physical death allows the soul to leave this body of death, for a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise.
JESUS is already at the Great White Throne Reigning now.
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
//i think it becomes both, they get Judged and then become Judges later ...after satan is loosed.
Luke 22:29-30
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
//i think it becomes both, they get Judged and then become Judges later ...after satan is loosed.
Luke 22:29-30
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
@Davy and @Timtofly the real hard truth that hits a believer between the eyes are these regarding even your salvation.
I have taken this from a source that I concur with....and modified it ever so slightly
1. Did God break His promise? In Psalm 2, YHWH promised that He would establish His kingdom regardless of man's attempts to thwart His purpose. Premillennialism teaches that the 'Jewish' rejection of Jesus as an earthly king caused God not to be able to establish the kingdom in the first century. Hence, God's promise failed. The next conclusion which follows is this: if the rejection of Jesus in the first century caused God to be unable to fulfill His promise, how can we be sure that a similar rejection at a later time would not have the same effect? This destroys confidence in the word of God.
2. Is Jesus is a failure. John 18:37 plainly states that Jesus came to this earth for the purpose of becoming a king. If He did not accomplish that which He set out to do, as premillennialists assert, He failed in His mission.
3. Dethroning Christ. Premillennialism dethrones Christ by denying that He is presently reigning as king over His kingdom. Hence, if premillennialism is true,' we cannot confess that Jesus is Lord (Acts 2:36) or that He is King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim. 6:15). We could only state a conviction that He will become these things at some future date. Presently,' however, Jesus does not have "all authority" if premillennialism is true despite the clear affirmations to the contrary (Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:20-23).
4. So the Apostles have no authority. The apostles were given "binding and loosing" authority in the kingdom (Matt. 16:18; 18:18). If the kingdom has not come, they have no binding and loosing authority. The words of the apostles would not then be the authoritative word of God for today. The New Testament looses its authority if premillennialism is true.
5. There is no need for a new birth. The new birth was the condition for one to have admission into the kingdom of heaven (Jn. 3:3, 5). If that kingdom has not come, there is no need for a man to be born again. Why be born again if there is no kingdom in which to enter?
Are we not reborn or converted today or not? Do we need to be reborn AGAIN later like doing marriage vows over again when Christ returns for his people?
Just some areas of real concern to think about....
I have taken this from a source that I concur with....and modified it ever so slightly
1. Did God break His promise? In Psalm 2, YHWH promised that He would establish His kingdom regardless of man's attempts to thwart His purpose. Premillennialism teaches that the 'Jewish' rejection of Jesus as an earthly king caused God not to be able to establish the kingdom in the first century. Hence, God's promise failed. The next conclusion which follows is this: if the rejection of Jesus in the first century caused God to be unable to fulfill His promise, how can we be sure that a similar rejection at a later time would not have the same effect? This destroys confidence in the word of God.
2. Is Jesus is a failure. John 18:37 plainly states that Jesus came to this earth for the purpose of becoming a king. If He did not accomplish that which He set out to do, as premillennialists assert, He failed in His mission.
3. Dethroning Christ. Premillennialism dethrones Christ by denying that He is presently reigning as king over His kingdom. Hence, if premillennialism is true,' we cannot confess that Jesus is Lord (Acts 2:36) or that He is King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim. 6:15). We could only state a conviction that He will become these things at some future date. Presently,' however, Jesus does not have "all authority" if premillennialism is true despite the clear affirmations to the contrary (Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:20-23).
4. So the Apostles have no authority. The apostles were given "binding and loosing" authority in the kingdom (Matt. 16:18; 18:18). If the kingdom has not come, they have no binding and loosing authority. The words of the apostles would not then be the authoritative word of God for today. The New Testament looses its authority if premillennialism is true.
5. There is no need for a new birth. The new birth was the condition for one to have admission into the kingdom of heaven (Jn. 3:3, 5). If that kingdom has not come, there is no need for a man to be born again. Why be born again if there is no kingdom in which to enter?
Are we not reborn or converted today or not? Do we need to be reborn AGAIN later like doing marriage vows over again when Christ returns for his people?
Just some areas of real concern to think about....
How do Premillennialist not see that they are demanding the same physical Kingdom that the Jews did ...but only for a magical 1000 year period?
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, let's see bro...
No, Premillennialism is not where the prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple comes from. Jesus is Who prophesied that their 'house' would be left desolate (Matthew 23:38, and also Luke 21:24). Did you know that Jerusalem has been sieged something like 27 times in its history? There is still one more time to come, a final time at the end of this world. So no, it's easy to KNOW beyond all doubt, that today's nation state of Israel does NOT represent God's prophesied restoration for His Israel UNDER CHRIST JESUS (did you forget about that).
Nor is there a king of the house of David sitting upon a throne in Jerusalem today! and that also is a requirement for the restoration of true Israel under Christ! You can read about it in the Ezekiel 37 chapter.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Wow! It is not often I encounter thoughtful questions like these.
I think there is a relationship between your quoted verses....and it again has to do with perspective.
We can ask the question of Revelation 20:4 'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them' ...who is doing the judging and who is the judged? I think God is being judged as to whether he is worthy of worship and he is being judged by those on thrones (God's people)
Matthew 19:28 'in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory' is God's vindication.....his glory is revealed in that he went to the uttermost lengths for man's salvation and now the created Universe can see for themselves that any and all of Satans accusations are proven false.
Revelation 20:11 'And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away' is the determination or judgement of the wicked. Their judgement is contingent on their rejection of the Salvation wrought for them.
Ephesians 2:4-8 'But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God'
Here is Paul's reiteration of how God sees and our access to his (God's) vision by believing what he has accomplished in Jesus.
Down the track in heaven, there will be many questions unanswered in the minds of God's people re the salvation of perhaps people they expected to be there but are not or people who are there which they didn't expect to be. We will be able to check and have all these questions answered to the satisfaction of all. God will be judged and vindicated so that doubt about God's kindness towards his creatures will never be raised again ...ever.
I must say, my explanation here is extremely abbreviated and much more can be said.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
In Revelation 20:4 there is a resurrection and judgment of those beheaded in the 42 months prior to this event. That is what the verse says.
Only 1000 years later do we see all the dead who were not resurrected in verse 4. The GWT is not the same event as verse 4.
The Millennium is a time of regeneration. Isaiah 65 even calls it a new heaven and earth. Just like there was a new heaven and earth after Noah stepped off the ark, when water destroyed the former earth.
The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is a new beginning after the earth and heavens were cleansed by fire.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Paul clearly stated that the rejection of Jesus by his people was the salvation of the Gentiles.
Some argue that the Gentiles are just the lost ten tribes. It goes deeper than that. The Cross opened up the gospel to the whole world.
Jesus did say the house of Jacob would be removed as stewards of the vineyard and the task would be given to whosoever accepts the Gospel.
God promised to redeem the whole world not just the elect, as some put it. There was no failure because Adam's punishment was not over. 6 Days shalt thou labor. Not 4 days. Even the failed house of Jacob should have understood that fact. They were the keepers of the law of bondage from Mt. Sinai.
If God's plan is rejected after 6 Days, then yes, the world has bigger problems than the events of 30AD.
I have yet to meet one pre-mill who claimed Christ failed and did not become King.
This is a strawman argument that does not exist in fact or reality. The spiritual blindness placed on Adam's flesh and blood is the issue, not the Authority and Kingship of Christ.
Why have to state this strawman argument 3 times in a row? Would not just one bullet point suffice?
The keys of the kingdom to bind and loose is not in a single person or organization. Every individual on earth even those who reject the Atonement, can still bind and loose with the authority of the Holy Spirit in their lives. People do not hold back darkness. The Holy Spirit working in every soul holds back the darkness. Even the redeemed can allow sin to come in between God's will and His perfect plan, that is why we have the ability to confess our sins.
Many call that going in and out of salvation. The fact is it is going in and out of letting the Holy Spirit have control and letting our own will have control. It is not about getting and loosing our Atonement.
Even the sheep of Matthew 25 are not born spiritually from above. They did not even know they were letting the Holy Spirit work through their lives. Yet Jesus claimed when they were doing acts to the least of these, they were doing it unto Him. That is the definition of allowing the Holy Spirit to work in the lives of other humans.
The authority of Christ is at work even in those who do not even think about it, but sidestep their own desires letting God work in them, even though they are not accepting of the second birth. That is Christ being king even over those who would not outright accept the Atonement of the Cross.
Yet we have many who do not even understand this phenomenon, who just want to wrongly associate the sheep symbolically as the church, and then falsely claim good works will get you into Paradise. The only way to get to Paradise is to be born the second time from above. The sheep in Matthew 25 will have eternal life, on earth, but not in Paradise.
The church is made up of individuals. Each individual has the power to bind and to loose, because it is done by allowing the Holy Spirit to work, not by declaring one's own will in getting God to do stuff.
The New Testament looses it's authority because of this:
"For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
This makes no sense. To enter God's created Paradise, one does need the 2nd birth. The spiritual birth from above. This is not allowing the Holy Spirit to work. This is realizing the first birth, physical is only into Adam's family. This is accepting that we have to be born the second time, spiritual to be part of Paradise.
When Jesus said those words in the first century, New Jerusalem was still 3000 years away. Jesus was not praying for the physical NJ to appear. Jesus was praying to open the hearts and minds of Adam's offspring to accept the second birth. Just like those in the OT were by faith looking for that city above. By faith they were aliens and strangers on earth, because they were born from above, spiritually. Becoming a citizen of Paradise, allows us to be Ambassadors of the Gospel message. The Cross was the physical enactment of the event that existed before the creation in Genesis 1:1. Jesus did go away physically and as the Word and physically started it all in Genesis 1.
The Word became flesh, and also at the resurrection the physical became the Word. This does not even need to be understood. Because accepting the spiritual birth is by faith, not by sight and understanding.
Of course many do not even accept the death burial and resurrection of God in 30AD. But for 4000 years they did not even have that to look back on. They only had a promise of a future event. Now 1991 years later, we are far removed from the Cross, and it is still looking back in faith of the promise of God's Word.
The fact is: "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
@Timtofly I really do not agree and/or do not understand most of your post to me in #173, to be honest. However, I can add more to what you did say about your belief as mine also, that Christ is King today..Amen!
Now we have at least one thing then we can use as a foundation for further discussion.
I would then like to add more queries to this area....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you say you believe that Christ is King today, does this mean he is reigning in heaven and on earth, as I do? Or what, only heaven for example? And if you believe he is truly the King today he must be reigning or ruling in some capacity and for what purpose?
Your pre-mill doctrines and beliefs seem to force you into believing that he is ruling only truly as the King, after he returns to kick of a 1000 year earthly rule. Is this true? And if it is, then is Christ really the King today and is he really ruling at all for now? Can you see my reason for asking these questions ? It would be nice if you could clear this confusion up for me.
Thanks
------I have more queries, for later then..........
Now we have at least one thing then we can use as a foundation for further discussion.
I would then like to add more queries to this area....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you say you believe that Christ is King today, does this mean he is reigning in heaven and on earth, as I do? Or what, only heaven for example? And if you believe he is truly the King today he must be reigning or ruling in some capacity and for what purpose?
Your pre-mill doctrines and beliefs seem to force you into believing that he is ruling only truly as the King, after he returns to kick of a 1000 year earthly rule. Is this true? And if it is, then is Christ really the King today and is he really ruling at all for now? Can you see my reason for asking these questions ? It would be nice if you could clear this confusion up for me.
Thanks
------I have more queries, for later then..........
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The base of the GWT is on earth. Earth is the footstool. That is found in Isaiah and the Psalms. We cannot see it in spiritual blindness. At the opening of the 6th Seal it will be seen. No more spiritual blindness.
"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"
Not just a Second Coming of the Lamb. The face of the one sitting on the throne (GWT) will also happen. God is not playing musical thrones. God has been sitting there on the GWT since Genesis 1. The Word could not physically sit with God in the physical body of Jesus until the Resurrection in 30AD, or was it always there as well?
The point is not whether Jesus is actually sitting on a throne at any time. The point is, do all the Nations and every human physically see this rule over them?
Also what throne is in a temple in Jerusalem that Satan will sit on with the FP and the beast for 42 months? Certainly it is not the GWT. Yet there will be a physical throne in a temple in Jerusalem and it will be part of a future 1000 year long event.
Many just focus on spiritual applications but the physical is just as equal in creation as the spiritual. It is one single reality, not fantasy realms. Humans on earth are just spiritually blind. Also no physical throne yet in Jerusalem. Which should be an obvious fact for the last 1900+ years.
I am pre-mill, because Jesus is not coming in 1000 years as post mill claim. I am pre-mill because the Second Coming starts the 1000 years, unlike amil who claim the 1000 years is literally meaningless, and nothing happens after the Second Coming.
It literally has been 1991 years. Post mill would have been proven false in 1030 after the Second Coming had not happened 1000 years after stated in Revelation 20. Every one has read the words 1000 in Revelation 20 since at least 250 AD, who had a copy of Revelation in their possession.
I am also pre-mill because John mentions the 1000 years after the judgments and never claims the 1st century church has to literally wait 1000 years to witness the judgments declared in Revelation.
I am pre-mill because that is how the text is written.
Nope. What John wrote is dealing with temporal humans reigning with Christ, and not technically defining Christ's reign itself.
Well I appreciate you taking the time to explain your views and I believe you think you have answered my questions. The issue really is this, you have answered my post using your own personal deep preconceived doctrine of the future as one type of premillennialist with your own suit of selected scripture as your support. And in your answers you seem to assume you are also defining premillennialism versus amillennialism or postmillennialism. And then you present ideas that are exotic to me, like when you say 'The GWT in on the earth.' What should I do with that statement, or what am I meant to understand by it? And to boot, you seem to be a Trinitarian that fuses this Trinity doctrine with your pre-mill doctrine and that really jams up the works for me.
Maybe next time then..thanks
If the papacy before the Reformation is the woman that rides the beast, then isn't Revelation, at least, partially done?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
partially, yes....however the full and complete picture is still to come to maturity
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well we live in the kingdom "attitude" so to speak, but the kingdom has not yet been established. Jesus is currently not King yet! He is still in His role as High Priest, for Scripture clearly says that Jesus lives not to make intercession for us. He is granted His Kingship right before He returns and establishes His 1,000 year kingdom when He physically returns and finishes judging individuals and nations.
Similar threads
