If you want to stop sinning.

[marks]

Hebrews 13:8-15
8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9) Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10) We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11) For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12) Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13) Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14) For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

It is a good thing for the heart to be established with grace.

Here we see contrasted being established by grace, and being established with "meats", which didn't help.

What are these "meats"?

We have an altar that others have no right to eat from. Where there meats associated with an altar upon which some might establish their hearts? Certainly! The Levitical system. Is that what this is talking about?

"For the bodies of those beasts . . ." "We have an altar whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle." So "let us therefore offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually" giving thanks.

This seems very much in keeping with the overall theme of this letter, that Jesus is the Final Sacrifice, and we need to be established in His grace, and not relying one the Levital system, under the old covenant.

Much love!

 

[Truman]

Truman Ron..

Carrying your Cross, is a particular phrase that is related to discipleship.
Has nothing to do with why you sin and confess and can't stop.
Notice in your verse, and those 2 that follow, that Jesus hasn't died on the Cross yet.
There is no Blood Atonement yet.
No one is born again Yet.

So, you have to be careful when you look at the words of Christ, or any verses, that are given before He was raised on the Cross, as more often then not, He's aiming the words at the Jews, as "the time of the Gentiles" was not there yet.

An example? = You can follow Christ all your life, and die and go to hell.
Why?
Because you were not born again.
See, "following Christ" is only discipleship.
Being "ONE with God and Christ" is Salvation, and you have to have THAT, to go to heaven.

It is my understanding that when one is born again, it is not of perishable seed (1 Peter !:23).
I believe this is speaking of the rebirth of one's spirit.
Since it cannot perish, it cannot sin.
Therefore, my sin originates somewhere else.
We are spirit, soul, and body.
My reborn spirit can't sin, my body is a physical machine that is no more sinful than a rock (we are made out of clay, nothing I put in my body makes me unclean), so that leaves my soul.
My soul consists of my mind, will, and emotions.
Together, my soul and spirit make up my personality.
At the center of my personality is my heart.
It's what comes out of the heart that makes one unclean.
!, Deny self. 2. Take up my cross. 3. Follow Jesus.

 

[Behold]

What are these "meats"?

Thank you for the idea.

What is : The Meat of the word

 

[Hidden In Him]

So, put on your big boy diapers, and see if you can figure that out, Hidden in him, and once you do, if you do, you'll then understand what im doing here.

LoL. OK!

It explains why 99% of the body of Christ is "fallen from Grace".

This is a tad high, don't you think?

Hebrews 13:9, written by Paul, explains why you have 40,000 Denominations.
It explains why Mary is worshipped, and cults are born.

Alright, but wait. The context specifically states. "Be not carried away by divers and strange teachings: for it is good that the heart be established by grace; not by meats, wherein they that occupied themselves were not profited." So the divers and strange teachings he is specifically referring to have to do with the eating of unclean foods, yes?

Having a personal self control issue, as you are self describing, is not the same as having a "confessing and sinning" and repeat it, all your Christian life,.. issue.

Correct. This is why I am contending with you, however. You seem to address this particular incorrect theology, yet you kinda throw out the baby with the bathwater when you add that people should no longer walk conscious of their sins. Sins have to be addressed with a conscious mind that one is committing them, and your terminology lends itself to the idea that they do not.

You teach we cannot be holy - until we get more, sometime in the future. I teach we have all we need now in the Holy Spirit, and can live holy lives now.

Not quite. I teach that walking in holiness is made much tougher, especially for a body of believers, until they are again conducting themselves in services where the Spirit is manifesting Himself through them supernaturally in the spiritual gifts, because without the manifest Presence of the Holy Spirit, holiness is an impossibility with man, but with the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself greatly through members of a congregation, their Holiness (at least at the given time) becomes a foregone conclusion.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Having a consciousness of right and wrong, I'm not saying we lose that.

I know you're not, and that's just it. I'm saying the theology has an indirect way of suggesting it, and that's what I have the problem with.

For instance . . . In Romans 12:2, being conformed to this age, being transformed, proving God's will, these are plural. Renewing the mind is singular. There's a discussion to had about that, at the moment to say, it's not so cut and dried.

Look at the surrounding context. Speaking of the Jews, he says,

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again. 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Then he continues:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Again the body is referred to, and specifically in the context of Jews being in fellowship with Gentiles. This then is the transforming of their minds that he is talking about: That they no longer think in terms of Jews and Gentiles, for they are all now one body in Christ.

So then I suppose the question is . . . are these things which are done collectively by the church, or are these instructions that apply to each and every one of us?

Both, but he was directing these words to a congregation, so the primary sense is collectively by the church.

Maybe some people have not discovered that it really IS possible to overcome sin

Not arguing against that. Arguing against interpretations in support of certain teachings that are foreign to the texts cited.

 

[Hidden In Him]

FYI My first name actually is Truman. I recently decided to start using it instead of my middle name, which is Ron. I thought if I went to just Truman right away, people might not recognize me. Shalom.

Okie dokie, Truman Ron. I like Truman better, actually : )

But I got used to Ron, so this may take me awhile.

Shalom.

 

[101G]

THere are many on this forum who love Jesus and are sold out, and want to please God, always.
So, they are not "immature", as the reason they are sinning and confessing.
What has happened to them, is that they have been taught wrong in the beginning of their walk wth God, and have continued in this.... having no other teacher to show them what was wrong.

The reality check is this....... Paul said...>"be a follower of ME< as i follow Christ".

first thanks for the reply, second, since you used the Follow Paul because he follow Christ... well now, didn't Paul sin, by letting the sun go down on his anger, over John Mark with Barnabas? because the same apostle stated, Romans 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."well he didn't have FAITH when John Mark left them .... until later on. so you proved my point. because the tension was so strong between Paul and Barnabas until they parted ways. well was that of Faith?.... no. and anything that is not of Faith is .... what? SIN.

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." that's the reality check

so you have no ground to stand on with that assessment.

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[marks]

Not quite. I teach that walking in holiness is made much tougher, especially for a body of believers, until they are again conducting themselves in services where the Spirit is manifesting Himself through them supernaturally in the spiritual gifts, because without the manifest Presence of the Holy Spirit, holiness is an impossibility with man, but with the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself greatly through members of a congregation, their Holiness (at least at the given time) becomes a foregone conclusion.

OK, that's very consistent with what you've been saying.

That we give and receive from each other and in this way build each other up into the fulness of Christ. Absolutely!

I find that walking in holiness begins in my bedroom late at night, when I am alone with God, when distractions are set aside, and when I am focusing on the presence of the Spirit of Christ. What you describe for the church collectively, I fully agree with you there, I also find completely true for myself alone with God just the same.

Holiness is impossible, period! For us, that is.

Opening myself to God by trusting in Him the Holy Spirit manifests in my life, and in me, and holiness in living results. As you say, at least that given time.

Maturing, renewing the mind, is about being trained to be consistent in that mindset of trusting in Jesus, allowing His Spirit to live through us, which brings out the righteousness God created us with.

And in this sort of living, we can come to the body of Christ, with the gifts of the Spirit, allowing Him to work as He will. But I do believe it begins with me. And with you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm saying the theology has an indirect way of suggesting it,

I don't see that, myself.

Arguing against interpretations in support of certain teachings that are foreign to the texts cited.

I think we will remain in disagreement on that. I think the passages speak easily for themselves. We don't separate lying and stealing and being angry as only applying the the church corporate, and shouldn't interpret those passages any differently. Instruction for each of us, given to all of us. I'll leave it there.

Your view, to me, necessitates that I conclude that God is unable to complete His work in me unless others cooperate, and if they don't, He can't. And the Bible says that He can, and He will.

Even if you are the only Christian in town. Still God will keep His promises, which are to give you all you need for life and godliness.

I'm not saying God doesn't work through the body, He does. But I don't know a God who has limits on what He can do. And I do know a God Who has promised me, and I believe His promises.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Correct. This is why I am contending with you, however. You seem to address this particular incorrect theology, yet you kinda throw out the baby with the bathwater when you add that people should no longer walk conscious of their sins. Sins have to be addressed with a conscious mind that one is committing them, and your terminology lends itself to the idea that they do not.

Reading your post to @Behold gives me a better sense of what you are thinking, I think. To me the idea is that once we've stopped commission of any sin we commit, forget about it. When we realize we are sinning, whether it be thinking I'll have an unmet need, or something worse God forbid! we of course should immediately stop, and if there is anything to put back together, put it back together, but forget about the sin.

I mean, take away whatever lessons come with it, remember those triggers so when you see them coming you are holding onto your Anchor. Remember how the real decision was much earlier than if felt like at the time. Learn what you can learn.

But don't waste a moment of living holding on to any notion of guilt, or memory of the sin, just forget about it, put it from your thoughts, don't medidate on it. If you find your past sins coming to mind in anything but some clearly constructive way, something that leads you into closer embrace with God, I don't know, mine aren't like that, but OK, rather then think about past sins, think about God, what Jesus did, is doing, think about the Word.

God will bring to our minds everything we need to know about our behavior. We need to get used to listening to Him, and to taking seriously what He tells us. Once we've learned how to listen to God, once we've learned how to trust Him consistently, once we've become actually reliant on HIM, on Jesus' ability to empower our lives in holiness, though we may or may not commit sins, I'm not going to say I'm having a good day and I haven't sinned, I'm not the judge, still, it's a good day, nothing's really stand-out, I'm trusting Jesus, He'll let me know.

You don't need your radar set thinking about sin, and can pretty much forget the whole idea of sin. We don't have to live our lives that we. The way of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Rather, we can live our lives according to the law of the spirit of life in Christ.

We are trusting in Jesus, and receiving life moment by moment from Him. He will let me know if I veer from the path, me, I can keep looking ahead, not behind. Pressing into that upward call, trusting in Him to make it happen.

Much love!

 

[marks]

 

[Hidden In Him]

OK, that's very consistent with what you've been saying.

That we give and receive from each other and in this way build each other up into the fulness of Christ. Absolutely!

I find that walking in holiness begins in my bedroom late at night, when I am alone with God, when distractions are set aside, and when I am focusing on the presence of the Spirit of Christ. What you describe for the church collectively, I fully agree with you there, I also find completely true for myself alone with God just the same.

Holiness is impossible, period! For us, that is.

Opening myself to God by trusting in Him the Holy Spirit manifests in my life, and in me, and holiness in living results. As you say, at least that given time.

Maturing, renewing the mind, is about being trained to be consistent in that mindset of trusting in Jesus, allowing His Spirit to live through us, which brings out the righteousness God created us with.

And in this sort of living, we can come to the body of Christ, with the gifts of the Spirit, allowing Him to work as He will. But I do believe it begins with me. And with you.

Absolutely. In fact, you can usually tell what kind of service you will have pretty quickly, based on what those I attendance are "bringing." When I led worship, I could always tell immediately when they were bringing the world with them, because you would feel this heavy spirit, and it seemed like facilitating worship was like pulling a dead mule. But then other nights when those in attendance were waking in the Spirit before they ever even walked in the door, GOOD service, for the preacher and the worship team alike.

You bring it with you, which means services will only ever be as good as the membership will allow.

To me the idea is that once we've stopped commission of any sin we commit, forget about it.

Actually, I put things aside so long as I am cognizant that I have sinned again, not that I am dismissing it, but that it is enough for me to recognize that once again I am blowing it, and I need to keep beseeching God to help me deal with it.

There's an old song it reminds me of. The lyrics go:

Let me take my thoughts away
To think about another day
Remembering the times I pray
To help me deal with me...

The analogy was of a dog trying to be obedient to its master. With me, it's a forgone conclusion I will mess up. I just hope that I am doing enough right that is pleasing to my God that He will always continue to overlook my... indiscretions.

But don't waste a moment of living holding on to any notion of guilt, or memory of the sin, just forget about it, put it from your thoughts, don't medidate on it. If you find your past sins coming to mind in anything but some clearly constructive way, something that leads you into closer embrace with God, I don't know, mine aren't like that, but OK, rather then think about past sins, think about God, what Jesus did, is doing, think about the Word.

Agreed.

We are trusting in Jesus, and receiving life moment by moment from Him. He will let me know if I veer from the path, me, I can keep looking ahead, not behind. Pressing into that upward call, trusting in Him to make it happen.

Good words!

 

[marks]

I was tempted to lie earlier today.

I was facing a situation where being honest gave the risk of losing something I felt I needed.

I reminded myself that "The Lord is my Helper, therefore, what can man do to me?"

I know that's true.

When the time came, my heart was settled that Jesus would not forsake me, and I had absolutely nothing to be concerned over.

As the situation came and unfolded itself, well, that entire aspect of it just disappeared. It wasn't even an issue.

But that's not the point.

Had I lied, that's not where it began. Had I lied, I'd have to go back to that earlier moment, when, before doing anything, I had the choice to trust or not to trust. That choice can be changed at any time before the act comes. But if the choice is not to trust, the sin will result.

Trusting Jesus to do all He's promised is what keeps us from doing those things the flesh does.

That which is born of God sins not.

It's the flesh that fears for its safety, its comfort, convenience, whatever. The flesh lusts for evil, and the flesh does not trust God. The child of God is united to Him, God is our Daddy, Jesus is our Brother, we are His family, born of God.

Trusting God we simply follow in His way, which is that His Spirit within us inform every moment of our lives in the application of His Word, and the transformation brought in the renewing of our minds.

He takes the lead.

Work out (perform) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works (the work itself) within you to will and do what pleases Him. God works inside you, and you do in your life what He is doing in you. What He's doing is to give you the desire and ability to do what pleases Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

not that I am dismissing it,

That's a very good point!

Much love!

 

[marks]

You bring it with you, which means services will only ever be as good as the membership will allow.

This is why I think, I found so much more ministry during the 'after-service', that is, those who liked to hang out after the service was ended. We'd hang out in our little clusters ministering to each other.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

I think that everyone knows we are to not be sinning, Backlit.

Really though? Why is it then that Christians react so negatively when asked to consider God's commandments? After all, John says, "sin is transgression against the law". The response is varied, from "the law no longer applies...we are not under the law" to "You can't earn your way to heaven", or that old favourite, "I just obey the NT commandments, 'to love'". Then of course there's that popular one, "there's only nine commandments we need to obey, God threw away the fourth", and let's not forget "The Jerusalem council only asked Gentiles to not be idolators, fornicate, and abstain from road kill".
Any and all excuses not to actually meditate or seriously consider the fact that disobeying any one commandment is sin. And you can't pick and choose, saying, "God knows we are dust and winks at the odd petty theft or admiring look at that girl, etc etc." Then of course there's that ludicrous extreme of using 1 John 3:9 to excuse sin by believing John is saying its impossible for a Christian to sin, therefore when you do sneak that gaze at your sunbaking neighbor, or get unreasonably angry at the motorist who cuts you off flipping him an unsavory response, and muttering under your breath at what an idiot he is, you are saying to yourself, that cannot be sin because I can't sin, therefore God Himself must be overlooking it and doesn't care because it isn't sin for the Christian to transgress the law any more because the law was nailed to the cross blah blah blah.
A friend once told me he heard a preacher from the pulpit saying he could go outside onto the street and spray the pedestrians with machine gun fire, and still go to heaven.
I think our concept of what constitutes sin and what constitutes the consequences of sin needs to be evaluated afresh with the church. I don't think every Christian knows they're not to be sinning at all...particularly when told by so many that's it's impossible to stop...the other extreme to "cannot sin"

 

[Brakelite]

Maybe the short answer . . . right thinking about our reconciliation to God keeps us trusting Him freely, which gives opportunity for the Holy Spirit to empower our new lives, and His power in our lives is the Love, joy, peace, kindness, patience, you know these, that as we live this way, we don't become angry in the first place.

And even if we do, this kind of trust restores us back to our godly lives immediately.

Much love!

Amen. As we walk in the Spirit, we find those 'triggers' aren't triggers any more...they're firing blanks to which we don't respond.

 

[Truman]

first thanks for the reply, second, since you used the Follow Paul because he follow Christ... well now, didn't Paul sin, by letting the sun go down on his anger, over John Mark with Barnabas? because the same apostle stated, Romans 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."well he didn't have FAITH when John Mark left them .... until later on. so you proved my point. because the tension was so strong between Paul and Barnabas until they parted ways. well was that of Faith?.... no. and anything that is not of Faith is .... what? SIN.

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." that's the reality check

so you have no ground to stand on with that assessment.

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Of course, this is your opinion. lol Bless you, brother, and of course, the other!
His dominion is an eternal dominion...He does what He wants, He doesn't ask our opinion!

 

[marks]

Amen. As we walk in the Spirit, we find those 'triggers' aren't triggers any more...they're firing blanks to which we don't respond.

Exactly!

Fiery darts that bounce off of our knowing Jesus loves me.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

I don't see that, myself.



I think we will remain in disagreement on that. I think the passages speak easily for themselves. We don't separate lying and stealing and being angry as only applying the the church corporate, and shouldn't interpret those passages any differently. Instruction for each of us, given to all of us. I'll leave it there.

Your view, to me, necessitates that I conclude that God is unable to complete His work in me unless others cooperate, and if they don't, He can't. And the Bible says that He can, and He will.

Even if you are the only Christian in town. Still God will keep His promises, which are to give you all you need for life and godliness.

I'm not saying God doesn't work through the body, He does. But I don't know a God who has limits on what He can do. And I do know a God Who has promised me, and I believe His promises.

Much love!

Can't argue with that. God's promises do not rely on other men (other than ourselves) to cooperate...although He does want His people certainly to be cooperating together as Hidden says, in the gifts of the Spirit... but certainly can and does operate one on one with His people. I have found the most wonderful promise in scripture for overcoming is that of 1 Peter...by these promises we may become partakers of the divine nature...In the morning I find the best time to be one on one, and it is at that time I surrender, dying daily as Paul says, then I find the whole day flows. Our sanctification comes through preaching true...its a long way between Sunday/Sabbath meetings, but the word of God is fully capable of accomplishing in us God's will without the help of the preacher or the congregation. The congregation can keep us accountable, which is important.

Yes, by faith we have access, but now, that does not necessarily mean we will appropriate it in all instances. See, at the heart of things, I believe it is a moment by moment affair, just like with any other relationship on earth. His grace must be appropriated by faith through prayer. It is not a given that we can take for granted. But again, this is in reference to sin, not salvation or our relationship, any more than in the natural between an earthly father and son.

It is hard to approach the throne of grace at the very moment of temptation...there is an intense battle right there. We need to be straight up with ourselves and decide, what is it that I want here. To sin, or walk in righteousness. God has promised the strength I need to get through this, but do I really want to? The better time to answer such a challenge is well before the temptation comes...the morning before ,committing our life to our Savior's care for the day, asking of Him then for whatever strength we need to overcome all the fleshly lusts and temptations. So much easier to choose when the pressure isn't so "heated".

Ah, but now, some are more emotional than others, you would admit, yes? I consider myself to be amongst the most emotional people I know, and with virtually no way to keep from manifesting it whether good or bad. So for me, yes, the only answer is that my emotions be those of the Spirit of God; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. But when I am not, the manifestations of anger will be more pronounced, and that much more easily identifiable as sin, and thus not of God.

Oh I can get that. My problem throughout my life has been my tongue. Sharp it is. Can be very provoking. Yet in my entire 68 years of life I have had only 4 physical confrontations. All of them very minor affairs. My tongue may be sharp and cutting, but it has equally effective peace-making qualities at the other end of the spectrum. In other words, I'm not afraid of paper bags. It's the control of the tongue...that fire...that I have been developing. Having a warrior for a wife for 43 years has had an extremely positive effect (I will leave it to you to imagine ) which is one reason I dare say why God brought us together.