Lazarus’ resurrection was a temporary resurrection that did not defeat the grave. Jesus' resurrection (on the other hand) was a resurrection onto eternal life. He defeated sin, death, and the grave.
Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Lazarus’ resurrection was a temporary resurrection that did not defeat the grave. Jesus' resurrection (on the other hand) was a resurrection onto eternal life. He defeated sin, death, and the grave.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No sin. Removed at the Second Coming.
Disobedience to God always results in death. See Adam in Genesis 2 and 3.
No sinners. None of Adam's punishment left after all were killed at the Second Coming.
There is only one resurrection, the first resurrection that is physical after physical death. You cannot physically resurrect multiple times. You sound confused. No one enters Abraham's bosom post the Cross. There was a last day resurrection for the entire OT economy at the Cross. Matthew 27:50-53
"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
They will not be resurrected twice, so it is you who needs Scripture to explain they are resurrected multiple times. You also need Scripture where they physically died again for that second resurrection. Do you think the Resurrection in Christ failed those OT redeemed?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Even the body of Christ was destined to die! Every human being is appointed to death that comes through sin. Since all have sinned, all are ordained to physically die. Believers won't receive immortal & incorruptible physical body until the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds and time/delay shall be no longer. It is the spirit of man through the Spirit of Christ within that gives believers everlasting spiritual life. The spirit of man having the Spirit of Christ within can NEVER die, even though the physical body of flesh of every man is destined to die.
The body is not resurrected WITH eternal life, but is resurrected immortal and incorruptible through our eternal spirit that returns with Christ when He comes again.
When one is born again through the Spirit of Christ within, they have partaken of the resurrection life of Christ who is the first resurrection from the dead to die no more.
Your denial of the billions of wicked rebels that overrun your millennium is telling. You ignore them as if they are an aberration. Revelation 20 forbids your thesis, and you know it.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So in 2 Corinthians 5:1 the body from God is not physical but what, dust from heaven?
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
It sure seems like Paul is talking about 2 different bodies here. Not: one that is physical and the other that is not physical.
Paul does not say that we have to wait thousands of years for some judgment day.
We are not dead because we sin. We are dead because that is the body and image of death we inherited from Adam through Seth. We sin because the dead do not know God from birth. That knowledge comes from experience. Romans 5:12-14
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression."
Death is passed down even when sin is not imputed. One has to know the Law in order to sin and break the Law.
The example is given of the rich young man who claims to have always obeyed the Law and never once sinned, but when he asked Jesus what he needed to do, what Jesus told him to do was too hard, so he walked away still in a state of death. He would have rathered enjoyed life than obey the Words of Jesus. So once he knew what he had to do, until he did that, he would never find life.
So one could literally do nothing wrong their whole life and still remain in death in sheol until the GWT Judgment. Because they never did the one thing that God would have told them to do, had they sought God out. The point of escaping death is accepting the Atonement of the Cross, the second birth. Escaping death is not just doing your own righteousness your whole life.
The point is that this body of death cannot enter Paradise. But there is a physical body that the soul does receive once one does enter Paradise. No one walks around Paradise without the same body that Jesus has always had. Why would Jesus be the only one with a physical body? His physical body most certainly entered Paradise and the throne area of God where there has always been a temple in heaven. Revelation 7:9-17 has been the physical reality for those in Christ starting with the thief on the Cross. They are not waiting for some future experience. They have been serving God day and night since the Cross. You claim Revelation 20 has been a reality since the Cross, but then deny Revelation 7 after verse 9 has been a reality as well since the Cross.
Why is that?
They are ruling and reigning with Christ on those thrones set up. But that is not what Revelation 20 is even talking about. Revelation 20 is talking about humans who were still physically alive on the earth after the Second Coming.
BTW: Jesus kept the same body He was born with. It did not return to dust, because it was not from Adam, but was the second option in 2 Corinthians 5:1.
"a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Jesus was God, so had that body of God at conception in the womb of Mary. The only destined part was that Jesus was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.
Jesus' body did not have to die because of being of Adam. But because Jesus was the second Adam.
We know it was the same body, because it had the nail wounds and spear wound. If Jesus had a different body at resurrection, it would not have those marks.
So Jesus could enter heaven at any point after birth. After the resurrection, Jesus could be any where in time with that same post death body with the scars. Jesus was not physically limited by time either.
Last edited:
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Your denial and adding to God's Word is telling. You add the wicked into the Millennium as if God demanded humans to constantly be sinners. Revelation 20 forbids your thesis as they are deceieved only after the thousand years are over, and you know it.
Satan deceived Eve. So the Garden of Eden according to your logic was a bust and overflowing with wicked ungodly rebellious women, from the get go, since obviously she could not wait until Satan showed up so she could finally act on her wicked rebellious nature she always had, according to your logic.
Some would say 100% of Eden rebelled. That was a better score for Satan than 33% of the angels. You deny the Day of the Lord, and make it sound like 100% of those living during the Day of the Lord rebelled against God. Then you use rebellion as an excuse why the Day of the Lord is not a thousand years, even when Peter warned against you being ignorant of those facts.
I have never denied that people born in the Day of the Lord can die. Disobedience to God still results in death. Isaiah 65 points out that disobedient children can be and will be put to death. You change Isaiah 65 just like you change 2 Peter 3 to suite your own eschatological imagination. Sin will not enter the Day of the Lord like it was allowed to enter Paradise. One person's disobedience and death will not be passed down to the next generation. So unless you can change the point of Romans 5:12 and create another disobedience like Adam's in this future millennium, from Scripture, you are just adding to the book of Revelation what does not belong.
No one is denying that many are deceived by Satan, which is just as sad as Eve being deceived by Satan. But the result is not the same as Eve's deception, so stop playing it up to be Adam and Eve the second go around. Those people will make the mistake of their lifetime and live in death for as least as long as Adam and Eve did, unless both Adam and Eve are still in death, which we do not know, so unless you guess which you do about Revelation 20, forget it. No one other than those consumed by fire will be affected by those future human's mistake, unlike Adam and Eve who place all their offspring in a state of death, which was not a reality at all before Adam disobeyed God. So stop trying to make this future deception anything more than what is stated, just to prove a false point. It is bad enough your point without adding your imagination into the point.
You falsely accuse those who accept the Premil view which is also prohibited throughout Scripture.
Now we are clothed in an earthly house which is of the dust of the earth, then for all who die in Christ when our earthly house dies (is dissolved) "we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". Since the building of God, an house not made with hands is eternal, it cannot be a physical mortal body of flesh because all flesh is destined to die. But that which is eternal in the heavens cannot die because it is an eternal home.
That part of man that is of faith that shall never die is spirit, alive forever through the Spirit of Christ within, still a living soul even though our body of flesh returns to the earth. The spirit of faithful saints returns to God in heaven alive after our flesh has breathed its last. Our spiritual home in heaven is a pillar in the temple of God, which is new Jerusalem that shall come down from God out of heaven after this first heaven and earth has passed away.
In life we come spiritually unto mount Sion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and after our natural, mortal body of flesh has died, we shall be as the angels of God in heaven, a spiritual body of believers who are the general assembly and church of the firstborn, whose names have been written in heaven from before the foundation of the world. In Christ we are now spiritually ETERNALLY with Christ in heaven and our eternal life does not end when our natural, mortal flesh dies. We ascend to heaven "the spirits of just men made perfect", and to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant.
Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Revelation 3:12 (KJV) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Faithful saints will not be physically perfected immortal & incorruptible, made alive through our spirit that returns with Christ until the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds and the dead are resurrected with the living and changed. Being caught up to meet the Lord in the air clothed in immortality and incorruption, once again complete human being with an immortal & incorruptible body of flesh made alive through our eternal spirit, and the two together once more complete "living souls" then prepared for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Except for the fact that Adam and all the sons of God created on the 6th day had that permanent incorruptible physical body from the dust of the ground.
Adam was not destined to physically die. Adam disobeyed God, and physical death was the immediate result. Then God placed Adam and Eve into a temporal corruptible physical body that would eventually die.
Paul pointed out in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that the redeemed are returned to that original incorruptible physical body, that would never die. The soul of the redeemed is never without a physical body. That would be death, and not redemption.
You have denied that people die in your supposed millennium. Now you are doing a U-turn. But why do men die? Because of sin. They are sinners. Hello! And there are billions of wicked sinners in your future millennium spread about the four corners of the earth. These rise up in rebellion against Christ and God's people and surround them as the sand of the sea.
I have refuted your theories on Isaiah 65 numerous times and you have no answer to that. So, please do not go there. Avoidance is your MO.
You have also denied that many are deceived by Satan. Now you U-turn.
So, now that you accept that your millennium is overrun by billions of wicked rebels, will you admit that your pristine future millennium is a complete fallacy?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No, you changed the context of Isaiah 65 and avoided the truth of God's Word, that those who disobey God must die. That has always been true with God.
Those in the Millennium die because of disobedience to the law, not because they are in Adam's dead corruptible flesh as sinners.
If you lived a perfect sinless life and kept every law, you would still die and go to sheol. Based on the mere fact you are in the image of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
No, the Day of the Lord is not overrun by billions of wicked rebels. Will you admit the Day of the Lord is a thousand years? Is the Sabbath Day of the Lord God a fallacy of Scripture? You have rejected every Word of God to that end. Exodus 20:8
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."
See that word holy there? You do not keep the Day of the Lord holy and set apart from the sin and death of Adam's transgression.
Which is it? You change your beliefs every time we talk. It is impossible to pin you down.
You previously argued:
Until sin, and death through sin entered creation, A&E could not live forever after disobeying God without the ability to eat from the tree of life, and God blocked the way to the tree of life so they could not eat of it and live forever. Adam & Eve did NOT physically die immediately, they spiritually died the moment they disobeyed God, which is why their eyes became opened and they knew they were naked.
Spiritual death affects our spirit, not our body. Because the spirit within the flesh of man is how man has the ability to think, reason and breathe. The spirit within man became without ability to know (think & reason) God because man chose to listen to the voice of evil. Man's spirit then became bound to the voice of the serpent, so his voice became the ruler/master over fallen humankind from that moment.
Spiritual death does not destroy the flesh of man, it destroys the spirit within, because man lost the ability to hear the voice of God. The natural spirit within man, instead of being the likeness of God, became like the serpent (Satan), who will always rule over all mankind unless/until they are born again of the Spirit of Christ.
Once man is given the supernatural ability to hear the voice of God again through the power of the Holy Spirit, man's spirit is born again and has eternal spiritual life, but the physical flesh of every human is ordained to die, forever being marred through sin. It was the spirit of man that spiritually died on that day A&E disobeyed God and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that God had forbidden them. It's a depiction of innocence lost, mankind desired to wise as the gods, so desiring to be made wise, they disobeyed their Creator and became fools! Now man has knowledge of good and evil and how that knowledge will result in the death of all of creation. But the plan of God through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world assure that not every human, and creation itself shall be saved through Him.
Where is a "millennial kingdom" mentioned here? You have to add into unto the biblical texts.
Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.
לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר
Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after
לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת
Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die
What is this telling us?
The exact same thing, only in different terms.
This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.
This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more aging, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.
The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.
Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.
No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.
This is Old Testament verbiage that describes eternity to the Old Testament listener. It is telling us: no one is going to age! This relates to the new heaven and new earth not some supposed future millennium – that will never happen.
The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of aging and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Were Adam and Eve redeemed and believers before Adam disobeyed God? How about after Adam disobeyed and they were banned from the Garden?
You explain to me their salvation experience, and then you may show how well you understand what creation is supposed to be.
Creation is not supposed to be about sin and death.
I doubt you even understand what it means to be a son of God. I am not going back and forth. I am pointing out the difference between a son of God, and the offspring of Adam and Eve in a state of death.
If you had an understanding of what it means to be a son of God, you would still be a Premil. But you jumped onto the spiritualization bandwagon of everything physical. Creation is not physical verses spiritual. There is currently a state of death verses a state of life.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This is not a complete thought.
Sin and death entered immediately the moment Adam disobeyed God. Adam did not need God there to physically change. The physical death happened immediately because that was the result of disobedience.
There was no time for eating anything to keep them alive, except for maybe a few hours while they were hiding. Sin and death did not start years after they left the Garden of Eden.
What God did not allow was for them to live for 6,000 years in a state of death.
If you don't think they went from an incorruptible physical body to a corruptible body, why did God create them already in a state of physical death, before Adam disobeyed?
More avoidance. You are all over the place. One post is contradicting another. Do you even know what you believe?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Never become mature?
Never live a long time?
Never born?
Growing old is not the point now, is it? What does growing old even mean in context of Isaiah 65?
If there is birth, still current earth. If death from disobedience, still current earth. Jesus must reign until all creation is brought under subjection. Not just snapping His finger and all is well with creation, even a creation of billions who just appear in a blink of an eye. The Day of the Lord is the correct way to populate the earth, not bringing back dead people or creating billions in an instant.
So your whole argument is sinners just get to be sinners, with no consequences?
If a human born during the Millennium decides to disobey, they will physically die, no questions asked. Will they be consumed by fire? Who knows, but Revelation 20 states explicitly that many will be consumed by fire just for marching across the breadth of the earth.
So the point of Isaiah 65 is that without being deceived by Satan, one is more likely to disobey a law as they mature, not after they reach maturity.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Stop avoiding. Which is it? You change your beliefs every time we talk. It is impossible to pin you down.
You previously argued:
Similar threads
