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Featured Is Dispensationalism a valid way to interpret scripture?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by jknbt, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    In the rest... of Apostle Paul's Message in Romans 6, he makes it clear that whatever instruments of righteousness we become after belief on Jesus comes from watching out for sin and staying on the righteous path... and not from just having faith only...

    Rom 6:12-16
    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    KJV


    It's obvious that Paul was showing we are still able to sin after having coming to Jesus, and that we need to have control over our flesh lusts and desires.
     
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  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Well, there it is in your last phrase, saying one cannot sin after having believed on Jesus Christ. That idea is not Biblical, and has been the whole point of disagreement between God's Word in 1 John 1 and the Grace Movement you're pushing which teaches believers they have no sin anymore after believing on Jesus.
     
  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I guess when folks like you are faced with the actual Word of God from written Scripture it causes you to get all tongue-tied and in a frenzy. You've lost it.
     
  4. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    marks doesn't have a problem understanding the gospel.
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    My response you quoted wasn't to Marks.
     
  6. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Davy,

    Not "my last phrase", but Bible:

    1 John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    What do you make of this verse?

    The flesh sins, but we do not. We are responsible to control our flesh, and have been given the power to do so. We are not condemned for the sins our flesh commits, yet still those sins get committed.

    The new nature cannot sin, being born of God, and sharing in His divine nature. The old nature only sins.

    We have been sanctified being born again, in that our new creation is holy to the Lord.
    We will be sanctified being resurrected/transformed, in that our entire being will be made confrormed to Christ, including our body of flesh.
    We are being sanctified as the new creation takes greater and greater control over the old man of flesh.

    And the net result, if we will but walk in faith, is a life of love and fellowship with our Creator, Who made us to love us, and to spend every minute of every day with us, because He loves us.

    So He removed the obstacle of sin, and make it so we don't have to. And if we do, Jesus always intercedes.

    By no means do I claim sin never results from my person. But . . . in the words from Scripture, it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in my. A new creation!

    And the idea isn't to say, OH, we'll never be without sin. To me, the idea is to say, I can be free from sin now, today, knowing Jesus is here with me setting me free!

    Much love!
     
  7. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi CL,

    I think this is a part that causes much difficulty with some people.

    I can't tell you how many times I've been taught things like that we have imputed righteousness without being taught we have actual righteousness. Same thing with "God sees us through 'Jesus Colored Glasses'". He sees us as Holy.

    Well, yes we do have imputed righteousness, but we've also been reborn completely righteous.

    God does see us as Holy because . . . wait for it . . . we are holy. God does not play Let's Pretend, and ask us to believe things that are not true.

    I too spent decades in churches not learning these things, then, when I became desparate for life, He showed me in His Word and set me free.

    Now, I think I was a Christian then too, just very immature. My process was not fast, rather slow in fact, still going on even.

    When the preacher says, "God looks at you through Jesus colored glasses", what he's also saying is that you aren't anything to look at on your own. True of the flesh. Not true of the new man.

    We have fellowship with God at all times, because at all times we are without sin. We are forgiven. We are cleansed, and remain being cleansed. Nothing separates us now. Nothing!

    Sin separates from God, but our sins are gone. All of them!

    Oh, I can just go on and on, I know!

    Much love!
     
  8. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    What happened to make you so angry and bitter?
     
  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
     
  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Well, we've been over that 1 John 3 Scripture before too. You weren't paying attention.

    Just as with the 'rest of the story' Apostle Paul gave in Romans 6 that you bypassed in favor of the doctrine of men you instead hold to, likewise in 1 John 3 is the same kind of example between doing rightouseness vs. evil offering a contrast of HOW John meant that 1 John 3:9 verse...

    1 John 3:10-12
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


    11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

    12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

    KJV


    What is the difference between those of in Christ Jesus and the children of the devil? Apostle John showed us in the 1 John 1 Chapter. We have Jesus Christ to repent to when we do little... mess ups, and He is Just to forgive us, like John said. The children of the devil don't care if they sin; they promote sin like those in the Isaiah 5:18 example. That's why they hate their brother.

    So when reading 1 John 3:9, you cannot just dump what John said in the 1 John 1 Chapter. Anyone can pull a single verse out of The Bible and teach just about whatever they want. Keeping to the flow of God's Word line upon line, chapter by chapter, prevents those doctrines of men from being established.
     
  11. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    I checked, and who it was to I have on ignore.
     
  12. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is possible to be continually cleansed, but we cannot hold unforgiveness in our hearts toward our brethren or spouses for slights we perceive - trespasses. The instructions that Jesus gave were not the OT laws, but His commandments for the New Covenant that went to the heart/core that He gives us His own power to fulfill.

    Matthew 6:14-15
    14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    You seem to not agree. What do you believe about the words of Jesus here?
     
  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    No, 'we'... still sin.

    If you get into an argument with someone, and you go out and get drunk and drive, and kill another person from it, will the courts hold you guilty, or just recognize that you being a Christian didn't really sin, but it was just your flesh that sinned?

    The 'new creature Apostle Paul taught is from walking in The Spirit, doing the good things that Paul listed at the end of Galatians 5, things which are not against God's laws.

    When we mess up and sin, even after having believed on Jesus, that indeed is our flesh, but our spirit can allow it by not keeping control over our flesh. In that respect, we are guilty of breaking God's laws, because like Apostle John said, sin is the transgression of the law.
     
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  14. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    The human race without Christ, sins. That is correct. What makes you think the killer was a born again of the Spirit Christian? That is what you can't see. Davy, see what Jesus says about those who sin, and the difference He makes.

    John 8:34-36
    34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

    So answer this question, what does Jesus free us from according to His words? Look at the context within the verse, and be honest.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  15. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    But there is a huge difference in someone who doesn't have a choice but to sin, and someone who is no longer a slave to sin. Yes, we have free will, but the whole purpose and result of being born again of the Spirit is freedom from the constant pull towards sin. Now we have a choice, whereas before the lust of the flesh was a constant enemy. You cannot dismiss the fact that we are dead to sin, and only want to justify committing sins, when the point is, you have freedom to make the right choice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Not what the human court thinks. Of course if we break the law of those in power over us, we will suffer the consequence.

    God forbid, you get drunk and get deadly, a terrible thing! Are you, as a Christian, condemned by God?

    If yes, then why wouldn't you be equally condemned for anger at the lady who cut you off, even though she was there first?

    Or whatever?

    And if not, why not?

    Much love!
     
  17. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Davy, I'm enjoying much of our conversation, but this sort of thing doesn't really work for me.

    Much love!
     
  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I went through the same process, and also the same result.

    LOL!
     
  19. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Come on, man.

    Give me a little credit for some intellectual honesty.

    Are you really of the opinion that I've devoted my life to the study and teaching of God's word so I can ignore it?

    Much love!
     
  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I really like the way you worded that first part.

    Jesus taught those under the first covenant of Law, within which, those who keep the law shall live by it, and so if you want to be forgiven, you must also forgive. Just like if you want to be accepted, you have to offer certain sacrifices.

    You could be forgiving, and be fine with God, and then be unforgiving, and in violation of the law, in danger of condemnation.

    In the new covenant, we're told to forgive others even as God in Christ has also forgiven us.

    In the first case, God will forgive IF we forgive others. In the second case, we are to forgive others BECAUSE God forgave us.

    The old covenant was outside in, but the outside could never actually get inside. The new covenant is inside out, God changes our inside, and it works its way to the outside.

    We are to forgive because we are the children of God who share His divine nature, and God forgives, so we also are to forgive.

    Anything less is the work of the flesh from which we have been saved. And having been saved from it, do we return to wallow? Well, if anyone is, stop that!

    Does this clarify my understanding?

    Much love!
     
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