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Featured Is Dispensationalism a valid way to interpret scripture?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by jknbt, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    This was only true before Jesus Christ. You didn't get the memo? Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. He made all men ONE in Him. There is now no distinction between Jew and non-Jew.
     
  2. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    We do all need to do this.

    Much love!
     
  3. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    And yet we have this passage in the book of Romans, AFTER the ascension of Christ, and too many Christians have failed to see its significance for a future redeemed and restored Israel/Jacob/The Twelve Tribes of Israel.

    ROMANS 11
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this
    is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable
    are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36 For of him, and through him, and to him,
    are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    What was Paul saying here? Christians need to go all the way back to the book of Genesis and then all the way forward to the book of Revelation to understand what God has revealed. We see a microcosm of redeemed Israel in Revelation 7.

    1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
    2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
    4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
    7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
    8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

    Now if someone wants to foolishly claim that this is a description of the Church, then he deliberately wants to contradiction God. A very dangerous thing.

     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    The strongest indication that God's Plan of Salvation through His Son left Jerusalem once it was rejected by the Jews, and instead went to lost Israel and the Gentiles who would believe, both becoming Christ's Church, is the fulfillment of the Western Christian Nations of history. That is where The Gospel of Jesus Christ mostly went to after the passion of Christ. Whole nations in Asia Minor and western Europe converted to Christ Jesus. Even the nations in eastern Europe prior to Bolshevism, like Russia, were Christian nations, with kings and queens sitting upon thrones.

    But what happened to Jerusalem after Christ's crucifixion? Scattering of the Jews by the Romans, and destruction, end of sacrifices and a temple. God broke the old covenant worship up. And He ended the king line of Judah there in Jerusalem also, never to this day having a king of the house of David there. Most of the Promises God gave to Abraham for that area left after the Jews rejected Jesus as The Christ.

    Yet early on in God's Word, Jacob was told that of his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations" (Gen.35:11). Now the nation of Israel has only ever been but 1 nation. So who would those "company of nations" be which God promised him? Those represent the western Christian nations where The Gospel of Jesus Christ went to. That is where God scattered the majority of the peoples of Israel, the ten tribes who were separated from Judah first.
     
  5. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    Lol! I am not dodging the issue!
    The scriptures testify of Jesus, NOT ISRAEL!!
    They ARE NOT the center of attention as you make them out to be! Even in your reply you can't let go of Israel. You are hooked, both line and sinker by the fiction that has been fabricated by the religiosity of the "scholarly learned".
    Learn this: when the KoG was taken away from Israel, ALL the promises that God made TO THEM became NULL and VOID!
    There is NO future, literal "a thousand years" of Christ through Israel reigning over mortals on the earth, by the Lord's Glorified Saints.
    That is 100% fabrication.
    "A thousand years" is speaking of God's Age of Grace, ever since Pentecost! It literally has NO date set, or defined end for when the Lord shall return, "for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first (from faith). 2 Thes. 2:3.

    Read all of KJV- 2 Thes. 1 and STUDY on the word "WHEN". Hopefully, then you will discern that "a thousand years" is symbolic of God's Age of Grace NOW, and not in some distant, fictitious future reign on earth over mortals.
    .
     
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  6. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    I hate the word "dispensationalist" as if there are no valid dispensations in the Bible. Take being under the law, and now in the Spirit. Those are two valid dispensations. But there are those who make up non-biblical dispensations, such as cessationism, and the secret rapture of the church. Therefore, I am a dispensationalist when it comes to being born again of the Spirit, and the true second coming of Christ; and NOT a dispensationalist when it comes to the unbelief of cessationalism, and the unscriptural secret rapture years before Jesus comes back.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
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  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    When someone dares to contradict Scripture, look out.

    REVELATION 20
    1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    So here we have God the Holy Spirit speaking to us through the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to the apostle John, and making mention of A THOUSAND YEARS AND THE THOUSAND YEARS six times in eight verses.

    And then we have an indoctrinated and brainwashed individual telling that this is all NONSENSE. Whom should we believe?????
     
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  8. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    The 12 tribes of Israel x 12,000 is symbolic of the Israel of faith, being the remnant out each generation. "Not ALL of Israel is Israel". Therefore, " "ALL Israel", who were of faith, HAVE been sealed by God's Holy Spirit (white robes).
    All of that took place on The DAY of Pentecost.
    See Rev. 6:9-11.

    Those "under the altar" died in faith, still waiting for the "Promise", who was Jesus himself, the Gift of God's Eternal Life! Without the shedding of Christ's Blood, they could not receive the Gift of God's Holy Spirit permanently.
     
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  9. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    What shall you do with this?
    Mark 3[27] No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
    .
    When did Jesus bind satan?
    Who are Satan's "goods"?
    How is Jesus now "spoiling" Satan's "goods"?
     
  10. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    Though you may be "ignorant" about this,
    how long is "a thousand years"??
    Ans.
    2 Peter 3[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that
    one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,
    and a thousand years [is with the Lord] as one day.
    .
    > So, what topic did Peter state clearly in the following, OF WHY literal "time" is not an issue with God, and the "Promise" of His Grace?
    [9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
    but that all should come to repentance.
    .
    >
    When should all people come to repentance, to receive the Gift of God's Salvation?
    1. Now, before Jesus returns.
    2. "When" the Lord returns in flaming fire.
    3. After the glorification (resurrection) of His Saints, and all who believe in that day.
    > for item 4, do you want to throw in your false concept of "a thousand years" on earth, or will you understand that God doesn't LIVE IN our realm/concept of "time", and is ready "to go the distance" WITH HIS Age Grace, "except there be a falling away first"?
     
  11. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    In the KJV, concerning 2 Thes. 2:3, please notice that the word "except" is used, and not the word "until".
    That is crucial to know, because if the use of the word "until" is applied, it denotes the counting of time passing.
    Think on that! In God's Eternity, there is no passing of time!!
    .
    However, by use of the word "except", it denotes of an event that shall take place, and time passing is not considered.
    .
    In all of your Bible Study of Rev., can you think of the one "event" that shall cause people to "fall away" (from faith)?
    IOW's, what earthly, future event will divide/separate the sheep from the goats, whereby once the commitment is made, the fate of their outcome is sealed unto death and destruction.

    Clue: Rev. 14:9-11.
     
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  12. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    Yep! Just more splintering of the "splintered".
    It's just amazing how many false doctrines of belief have been conjured up, in addition to the scriptural account of our Lord's Glorious and visible return in all of KJV- 2 Thes. Chapter 1.
    .
    One very observable word found there, is the word "when", which simply and truthfully says it all.
    But for many, that is just not good enough! They go get that hatchet of "scholarly learned" lies, and start "splintering" away!
    So, as I always say:
    "There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.
     
  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Earburner,

    A question . . . the sort no one has ever answered to me . . . maybe this time would be different.

    IF God were to want to say, JUST IF, God wanted to tell us that He was planning to have angels place a sealing mark on 12,000 Jewish men from the tribe of Judah, how would He say it? What words would He use?

    Much love!
     
  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Is this a statement of perspective? Or a recipe for interpretation?

    Much love!
     
  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    In the end Dispensationalism is just a fancy way to ignore the commands from God we don't like. It is just another way to privately interpret the bible in a way that suits us.

    We don't like the way Jesus treated the rich young man?...telling him to forsake all he had in order to follow Jesus?

    Solution: Make that only for the Jews to have to do. It's not for us. Create a new gospel that is so easy you can be sinners all along the way. Make a different Jesus for us Gentiles who isn't so exacting in the truth. A different gospel, a different Bride...etc... Hey..people will go for it because it sounds easy!

    We don't like all the spiritual references in the bible because we have no idea what that is?

    Solution: make everything literal. Call any who see or experience God in real time... mystics or spiritualizers.

    Trouble with hard sounding verses?

    Just ignore them and call whoever cites them...legalists.

    So then Dispensationalism is way to invalidate scripture.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
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  16. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your sincere question.
    Let's be real, God wanted all the Jews to have faith in the Promise of the first appearance of His Son. The 70 weeks of Daniel is loaded with that promise.
    For all of Israel, there was only a remnant out of each tribe and generation, who maintained that faith, while the remainder went off track in and with their Religion, that they fabricated.
    All of the faithful, towards the Promise, died in faith believing of the Messiah to come. We see that faith in Simeon. Luke 2:25-32.
    .
    Now, as much as Simeon declared the Lord's Truth, the Holy Spirit was ONLY upon him, and NOT within him. That is the exact situation for all faithful Jews prior to Simeon, who had also waited for that Promise of the Messiah to come.
    IOWs, the Holy Spirit could not be freely Given to anyone of faith, permanently, until the shedding of the Blood of Jesus. Only by the Blood of His Sacrifice, could there be the REMOVAL of all sins. Up until then, sin was only forgiven, and then only upto the length of one year.
    In the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Holy Spirit could now be freely Given, and is now, ever since Pentecost, is permanently installed/deposited in every believer, who by faith accepts Jesus as their Sacrificial Lamb and Savior.
    So what about all the faithful Jews, in all previous generations and tribes? Did they also receive the Holy Spirit, on the Day of Pentecost, though now dead?
    YES!
    It's found in Rev. 6[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
     
  17. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    It most definitely is THE recipe for interpretation.
    Try, if you will to make any literal sense of "time" out of it. You can't, for all it is, is a description of God's Eternity, and how He thinks about time. He follows no "man made" calendar from the place of His Heavenly Throne.
     
  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Earburner,

    Did you have an answer for my question?

    If that were what God wanted to say, that He was planning to put a sealing mark on 12,000 men from the tribe of Judah, how do you suppose He would say it?

    Much love!
     
  19. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Earburner,

    And of Jesus' 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth? 3000 years?

    Much love!
     
  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps this may be true for some, but I hardly think it a fair way to generalize.

    I think it's more meaningful to study what God wrote, and to make sure we have evidence for what we believe. Given that so many believe so many diffferent things based on their private revelations.

    Much love!
     
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