Self defence is NOT returning evil for evil.
According to Paul it is. See my post to Foreigner.
So are we to love Saddam and his supporters and not the Kurds?
This is not a Christians issue.
We do love Saddam and his supporters...but are unable to show our love to them while they are busy killing / raping / torturing/ gassing Kurds...so a logical brain tells me....for all to see the love of Christ...I need to pray for angels to help....angels don't help...then I need to assume God wants me to sort it out with the tools He has given me (brain, hands)...I do this...and it will very likely result in many dying....but at the end of the day...my enemies will be able to live in peace and I will be able to bless them....and show them the love and mercy of God.
There's your mistake, you assume. No need to assume, Jesus said don't repay evil for evil. Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus or His apostles teach that Christians are to go about protecting others.
Please explain how killing someone is showing them the love and mercy of God.
Sitting in your cosy tv room watching people suffer...when you have the means to help....is not Christianity! it is more satanism.
The devil will sit and watch you suffer, Jesus won't!
First of all, let me ask you, is praying doing nothing? You said Jesus won't watch you suffer, didn't Jesus say Christians will suffer? Don't you think Jesus saw what happened to Peter, Paul, James and the rest of the apostles. don't you think Jesus saw the martyrs like Ignatius, Polycarp and Justin the Martyr?
If a poor man comes and asks for bread....do you ignore him and pray for him....or do you give him bread / teach him to fish?
Giving him a fish doesn't require breaking Christ's commands
Your logic is in line with Christians who don't take there kids to hospital because they are praying and fasting for healing....believing and holding onto scriptures literally...not even trying to understand them in context....just like pharisees who Jesus accuses of not even seeing how all the scriptures pointed to Him.
If you want to talk about context, I suggest you look at Jesus' words in context. It will become that the Christian is not to use violence. This was the understanding of those who were taught by Jesus and the apostles.
Why did Jesus have to fast for 40days? He had to get into spiritual shape so that He could hear The Holy Spirit 100% clearly....if we are not 100% in tune with The Holy Spirit it can and will happen that we will find ourselves in positions where God does not send angels, God does not send money from heaven (make the honey jar never go empty), God does send instant healing.....but that He has to help us in other ways...namely....army, unemployment insurance and hospitals
You've resorted to opinion.
I think the real debate here is between doers of the word and talkers.
Helping the weak is being a doer! sitting at home praying...and watching God do nothing because you're not as close to the Holy Spirit as you need to be...makes you a talker.
Are you serious? Exactly how close to the holy Spirit must one be? Helping the weak is fine as long as it doesn't break Christs commands. Should we help the poor man cheat on his wife? Wouldn't that make one a doer? I suppose you will answer no to this question. If so why is it OK to break one command and not anther?
Here's few quotes from those who were there.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Aristides 125 A.D.
They do not worship idols (made) in the image of man; and whatsoever they would not that others should do unto them, they do not to others; and of the food which is consecrated to idols they do not eat, for they are pure. And their oppressors they appease (lit: comfort) and make them their friends; they do good to their enemies; and their women, O King, are pure as virgins, and their daughters are modest; and their men keep themselves from every unlawful union and from all uncleanness, in the hope of a recompense to come in the other world.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160 AD.
we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr
and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified;
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Athenagoras 175 AD.
for we have learned, not only not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us, but to those who smite us on one side of the face to offer the other side also, and to those who take away our coat to give likewise our cloak. But, when we have surrendered our property, they plot against our very bodies and souls, pouring upon us wholesale charges of crimes of which we are guiltless even in thought, but which belong to these idle praters themselves, and to the whole tribe of those who are like them.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180 AD.
the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.”
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus
1. Moreover, this impious opinion of theirs with respect to actions—namely, that it is incumbent on them to have experience of all kinds of deeds, even the most abominable—is refuted by the teaching of the Lord, with whom not only is the adulterer rejected, but also the man who desires to commit adultery; (Matt. 5:21, etc.) and not only is the actual murderer held guilty of having killed another to his own damnation, but the man also who is angry with his brother without a cause: who commanded [His disciples] not only not to hate men, but also to love their enemies; and enjoined them not only not to swear falsely, but not even to swear at all; and not only not to speak evil of their neighbours, but not even to style any one “Raca” and “fool;” [declaring] that otherwise they were in danger of hell-fire; and not only not to strike, but even, when themselves struck, to present the other cheek [to those that maltreated them]; and not only not to refuse to give up the property of others, but even if their own were taken away, not to demand it back again from those that took it; and not only not to injure their neighbours, nor to do them any evil, but also, when themselves wickedly dealt with, to be long-suffering, and to show kindness towards those [that injured them], and to pray for them, that by means of repentance they might be saved—so that we should in no respect imitate the arrogance, lust, and pride of others.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria
And an enemy must be aided, that he may not continue an enemy. For by help good feeling is compacted, and enmity dissolved.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria
Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence the delinquencies of sins. For it is not those that abstain from wickedness from compulsion, but those that abstain from choice, that God crowns.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 197 AD.
If we are enjoined, then, to love our enemies, as I have remarked above, whom have we to hate? If injured, we are forbidden to retaliate, lest we become as bad ourselves: who can suffer injury at our hands?
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
In short, the coming procession of a new law out of this “house of the God of Jacob” Isaiah in the ensuing words announces, saying, “For from Zion shall go out a law, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem, and shall judge among the nations,”—that is, among us, who have been called out of the nations,—“and they shall join to beat their glaives into ploughs, and their lances into sickles; and nations shall not take up glaive against nation, and they shall no more learn to fight.” (Isaiah 2:3-4) Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices,—the old law being obliterated, the coming of whose abolition the action itself demonstrates? For the wont of the old law was to avenge itself by the vengeance of the glaive, and to pluck out “eye for eye,” and to inflict retaliatory revenge for injury. (compare Exodus 21:24-25; Leviticus 24:17-22; Deuteronomy 19:11-21; Matthew 5:38) But the new law’s wont was to point to clemency, and to convert to tranquillity the pristine ferocity of “glaives” and “lances,” and to remodel the pristine execution of “war” upon the rivals and foes of the law into the pacific actions of “ploughing” and “tilling” the land. Therefore as we have shown above that the coming cessation of the old law and of the carnal circumcision was declared, so, too, the observance of the new law and the spiritual circumcision has shone out into the voluntary obediences of peace.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
the Christian does no harm even to his foe
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
Nay, He puts His interdict on every sort of man-killing by that one summary precept, “Thou shalt not kill.”
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4
Commodianus 240 A.D.
Many are the martyrdoms which are made without shedding of blood. Not to desire other men’s goods; to wish to have the benefit of martyrdom; to bridle the tongue, thou oughtest to make thyself humble; not willingly to use force, nor to return force used against thee, thou wilt be a patient mind, understand that thou art a martyr.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Cyprian
and that by this very fact they are invincible, that they do not fear death; that they do not in turn assail their assailants, since it is not lawful for the innocent even to kill the guilty;
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Cyprian
nor, after the Eucharist carried in it, is the hand spotted with the sword and blood.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Theonas of Alexandria 300 A.D.
And do thou, my dearest Lucianus, since thou art wise, bear with good-will the unwise; (2 Cor. 11:19) and they too may perchance become wise. Do no one an injury at any time, and provoke no one to anger. If an injury is done to you, look to Jesus Christ; and even as ye desire that He may remit your transgressions, do ye also forgive them theirs; (Mark 11:25) and then also shall ye do away with all ill-will, and bruise the head of that ancient serpent, (Rom. 16:20) who is ever on the watch with all subtlety to undo your good works and your prosperous attainments.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lactantius 304-313 A.D.
But we, on the contrary, do not require that any one should be compelled, whether he is willing or unwilling, to worship our God, who is the God of all men; nor are we angry if any one does not worship Him. For we trust in the majesty of Him who has power to avenge contempt shown towards Himself, as also He has power to avenge the calamities and injuries inflicted on His servants. And therefore, when we suffer such impious things, we do not resist even in word; but we remit vengeance to God, not as they act who would have it appear that they are defenders of their gods, and rage without restraint against those who do not worship them
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lactantius
He also, having no pride or insolence, does not raise himself too highly, nor lift up his head with arrogance; but he is calm and peaceful, lowly and courteous, because he knows his own condition. Since, therefore, he does injury to none, nor desires the property of others, and does not even defend his own if it is taken from him by violence, since he knows how even to bear with moderation an injury inflicted upon him, because he is endued with virtue; it is necessary that the just man should be subject to the unjust, and that the wise should be insulted by the foolish, that the one may sin because he is unjust, and the other may have virtue in himself because he is just.