Is it possible? ? ?

[ScottA]

Wow...some good thoughts here... That is another good one...
If as @ScottA said ( and it sounds good)... that it was all 'done and dusted before the foundation of the world'...Yes,good question, Why indeed will man have to judge angels all over again, if indeed judgement has already been pronounced?!

( scratching chin and musing..)

This speaks of the timeless nature of all thing in the heavenly realm. But it is in the world that we judge the angels, which is our witness, not a chronological event following the end. That would be mixing what does not and cannot mix - Light has no communion with darkness. No, the offence and the verdict are Gods, whom is not contained within the times of the world. Therefore, it is only our testimony and our witness that occurs in the world, and not the judgement, which we only do in Christ, in God.

Time is like a text bubble above the head of everyone who is born into the world. Media. Then comes the end.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Not to play devil's advocate (pun intended), why would we be judging angels if they are already found guilty?
1 Corinthians 6:3

I believe the angels we will be judging are the ones who were assigned to us such as guardian angels, ministering angels and so forth. They are expected to do God's Will towards us in how they were assigned by Him....but this is my humble belief....the fallen angels have already sealed their fate.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Thank you...more good thoughts.

I hadn't thought of his knowing God at close quarters ...and then choosing mutiny ...TREASON!! That does throw a different light on it all.
So, after all , he is already done and dusted.

I do know that we also have on this Site some who do not see Satan as an individual identity. But maybe they wont wish to throw that curve into things.

I also heard someone once say that Satan "in our Garden" is speaking of our carnal mind which is God's enemy. But I could never put all the pieces together on that one...like any jigsaw, I had too many bit left over that wouldn't fit in.


( somewhat like my husband, been married 57 years, and I have never seen him build anything that we have bought which needs assembling ..and then using every bit that is in the box...be it some cap, nut , screw or bolt.. I count all the bits that the assembly manual says that is in the box and needed...but always he has "bits over."..!! I often feel like that about subjects like this )

The Garden is Biblical and the Vineyard, God owns this and the workers of Satan took over it over and that's why God sent his Son to toss them out of it.
Satan's works was in leading all the people astray.

Now the meaning of the Devil is a slanderer and is commonly applied to those angels who with Satan (the adversary), called Lucifer, rebelled against God.
A devil is an angel who by revolt against God has lost supernatural grace.
Lucifer is also known as the Devil, the other devils, as demons.
Lucifer was the leader of the rebelling angels and remains such as regards the evil spirits asthey now are.
Their sin in the revolt was a sin of pride.
Since they are pure spirits their fall cannot have been due to fleshly or material desires, but only to spiritual ones, the devils wanted to be like to God and so rob him of His supremacy as their creator.
God created the angels good by nature, but some sinned and deliberately became bad.
Satan and his followers were punished by God and were cast into hell whence they can ensnare and persecute men.
They made there freedom of choice, so they can't repent it's a sin of pride.

Job 4:18
Apoc 12:7-9

All that the devil can do, is to seduce and lead away men's minds and so make them transgress God's commandments, thus little by little he blinds the hearts of those who would serve God, with the result that in time they come to forget the true God and to worship the devil as God. = Socialism. that reduce the human race to a perpetual captivity, a cruel usury.

 

[bbyrd009]

But the goat chosen by lot for azazel is to be presented alive before the LORD to make purification with it by sending it into the wilderness for azazel."
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Azazel.html#.W1R8IdJKiUk

Then Jesus returned from the Jordan, full of the Holy Spirit, and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness

 

[bbyrd009]

Why indeed will man have to judge angels all over again, if indeed judgement has already been pronounced?

bc Understand I AM, and new men are born every day?

 

[Helen]

LoL. Hey, where's the fun in always going by the rules? Life is like Mr. Potato Head. Make of it what you will.

About the "garden" thing, totally spiritualized. That is ok as long as they also honor the literal understanding of the passage, that Satan manifested himself visibly in the form of a serpent and spoke to Eve to deceive her. But those who dismiss the literal and try to replace it with only the spiritualized teach false doctrine, and turn the historical context of scripture into a myth.

Well that is kind of yes and no to me...I see what you are saying...but can't totally agree.
It says :- "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual..."

As I read it. The natural is only the shadow of the true ( spirit realm )
So God message to us is the spiritual not the natural...
He is Spirit, we are spirit..His realm is spirit...we know the old saying which goes..." The New is in the Old concealed the Old is in the New revealed. "

So is not the revelation to us spiritually not what God's message is all about?

No true believer tries to dismiss the literal or say the OT is a myth can be taken seriously ( but we've all met 'em) ...but when a person puts more weight on the literal than the spiritual then they are missing the whole point of God revelation.

But your argument is why I say " I cannot make all the bits of that jigsaw fit." If there is truth in it...and I don't discount it...the lights have not 'come on ' for me yet.
I find that is why we all get into so many arguments about scripture. Some people just take each verse literally some spiritually, some see it one way, some the other way....for myself I see many levels of truth hidden in them all.
The bible is a spiritual book, spiritually understood.
Some read the surface, some see a message in every verse ( when God is 'speaking' as they read )
No rights or wrongs...but we have all sat under different teachers in our young christian life...we develop patterns.
I remember my old dad preaching for an hour and he got so much out of an obscure verse ...where Elijah goes to the women house often as had a room for him, with a bed, a table and a candle. And the verse he expounded on was 'and the women came to Elijah and stood in the door....'
The whole room never twitched and we all sat on the edge of our seats...the hour flew by. To my dad, a verse was never just a verse..

Well it's just as well I started this thread...because I am for sure rambling here!!
For your peace of mind , no I do not throw out the literal...and I love the OT...but that is not "the message" ...it is God's pattern of that which was to come.
And I do also believe that we 'tend the garden' of our soul...and watch for the weeds daily. And, there is a 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' within us.
Every day we have the choice to eat of it...or to choose His Spirit who is also within us and is our Life.
Sometimes the Enemy will keep us too busy tending other people's gardens, that we forget our own ...( much like the beam and the speck in the eye)
A wise old man taught us that. At one time we kept getting phone calls at 1am or 2am from a mother how had a daughter who would have demonic attacks.
So obviously we would go. This old guys said to us one day...
" You do know that every single time you get an SOS call from anyone ...you must listen to the Holy Spirit. He will tell you if you are to go or not...because Satan's job is to cause burn out...and if you start doing all this in your own strength, you will burn out. " Wise words...and we lived by it after that.
We are responsible for our own body, soul and spirit...to 'tend and keep it.'

S.O.Songs 1:6 "....my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept. "

Ha! Sorry if this got boring...I do have a bad habit of rambling...and I hate long posts!! And I can't even be bothered to check it for spelling or typos...

Bless you much....H

 

[Helen]

No, the offence and the verdict are Gods, whom is not contained within the times of the world. Therefore, it is only our testimony and our witness that occurs in the world, and not the judgement, which we only do in Christ, in God.

Time is like a text bubble above the head of everyone who is born into the world. Media. Then comes the end.

Thanks Scott, excellent. I really liked "our testimony and witness"....that makes sense.
Thanks for the clarity...And I even understood it...sometimes I have to read things twice! ( my brain works slow these days. )

 

[Truth]

But the goat chosen by lot for azazel is to be presented alive before the LORD to make purification with it by sending it into the wilderness for azazel."
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Azazel.html#.W1R8IdJKiUk

Then Jesus returned from the Jordan, full of the Holy Spirit, and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness

I have never rely look at the Savior, as the Azazel, But the way you represented the Statement Above, It makes sense!
But I have heard that earlier on, that the Scapegoat was just released into the Wilderness, and then latter they changed it and it was cast over the cliff!

Being released would go with the similarity, of our sins being as far as the east is from the west! Good Link!

 

[Hidden In Him]

No true believer tries to dismiss the literal or say the OT is a myth can be taken seriously ( but we've all met 'em) ...but when a person puts more weight on the literal than the spiritual then they are missing the whole point of God revelation.

Mmmm... depends on the text. But you seem to have transitioned from "Can the Devil be saved" to discussing him in a spiritualized sense. I assumed we were talking about the literal Devil, not the spiritualized one. Maybe I got lost.

For your peace of mind , no I do not throw out the literal...and I love the OT...but that is not "the message" ...it is God's pattern of that which was to come.

If you mean in many of the typologies and symbolic references in the law to spiritual realities, yes, most certainly it is there. Some spiritualizations can get a bit iffy for me, but those are up for debate.

Ha! Sorry if this got boring...I do have a bad habit of rambling...and I hate long posts!! And I can't even be bothered to check it for spelling or typos...

You may need to save the rambling ones for when my head is a little more in gear, LoL. Just waking up and I'm in "What am I, and where am I at" mode.

 

[Helen]

Mmmm... depends on the text. But you seem to have transitioned from "Can the Devil be saved" to discussing him in a spiritualized sense. I assumed we were talking about the literal Devil, not the spiritualized one. Maybe I got lost.

But I was posting that to let Amadeus in on the thread...I already know what he believe and what he doesn't about many things...so I know why he believes what he believes , and it's a two way street, I believe things that he does not agree with or see.

I wanted him to feel comfortable in joining in without thinking he was going to derail the thread if he did.

 

[Helen]

If you mean in many of the typologies and symbolic references in the law to spiritual realities, yes, most certainly it is there. Some spiritualizations can get a bit iffy for me, but those are up for debate.

Well, at least they are "up for debate" most people just throw them out!!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well, at least they are "up for debate" most people just throw them out!!

LoL! I would never throw you out, unless I could go get you back.

 

[Helen]

You may need to save the rambling ones for when my head is a little more in gear, LoL.
Just waking up and I'm in "What am I, and where am I at" mode.

I am amazed that you can still see straight or have energy to type!!!
Do you have to go to work tomorrow....or can you take the rest of your time off as a vacation? ( some vacation. )

Will you check in for a physical with your doc soon?

When you feel that you are crosseyed and cannot function on the Site.
Will you a least get your wife to INBOX me with a smily face and any little thing so I know that you are okay.
If you are "just missing" I will presume that they have carted you off to hospital.
Yes, you can see I am a great woman of faith.
But my faith is Godward, not man-ward...as it says in Prov " Put not thy confidence in princes.." so I don't!!

Take care bro........H

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am amazed that you can still see straight or have energy to type!!!
Do you have to go to work tomorrow....or can you take the rest of your time off as a vacation? ( some vacation. )

Will you check in for a physical with your doc soon?

When you feel that you are crosseyed and cannot function on the Site.
Will you a least get your wife to INBOX me with a smily face and any little thing so I know that you are okay.
If you are "just missing" I will presume that they have carted you off to hospital.
Yes, you can see I am a great woman of faith.
But my faith is Godward, not man-ward...as it says in Prov " Put not thy confidence in princes.." so I don't!!

Take care bro........H

A Ha Ha! Helen, I'm fine. I'm fog-headed whenever I wake up period. I write typos like crazy, LoL.

But everything's surprisingly good, much better than I expected actually. I'm still working just like normal and everything.

It's not as bad as it sounds, really, believe it or not. Without the grace of God it'd be a total nightmare, and probably impossible. But with His grace it's not all that difficult frankly. I'm strong. I just get a little dizzy on occasion, I sleep hard, and I'm more soft spoken. But other than that, everything feels like normal.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I have never rely look at the Savior, as the Azazel, But the way you represented the Statement Above, It makes sense!
But I have heard that earlier on, that the Scapegoat was just released into the Wilderness, and then latter they changed it and it was cast over the cliff!

Being released would go with the similarity, of our sins being as far as the east is from the west! Good Link!

Azazel does not represent the Savior but rather the Adversary.

In the Rotherham version, it states in (Lev 16:8) that lots were cast over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and one lot for “Azazel”, Azazel seems to represent a personal being to whom the goat was sent.

The scape-goat pictures those who have made a full consecration to the Lord and have entered into a covenant with the Father (Psa 50:5), but who are not willing to make the necessary sacrifice required. “Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee the crown of life” (Rev 2:10) such unlike their more faithful brethren, pictured by the “Lords goat” must be put through trying experiences that they may surrender that which they are unwilling to willingly sacrifice.

“The Scapegoat class , i.e. ‘The Great Company’ or ‘Great Multitude’, if you will, Rev 7:9;13-17, though ‘castaways’ as regards the prize (1 Cor 9:27) are nevertheless objects of the Lord’s love; for at heart they are friends of righteousness and not sin, hence by his providence, that is by or through the circumstances of life, the Lord will cause them to come through ‘great tribulation’, thus accomplishing for them, that for which they did not willingly relinquish, in compliance with their covenant, ‘the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit the new life in them may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus’ 1 Cor 5:5.”

Manny of this class has already passed through much tribulations in their lives throughout the Gospel age, but there remains a rather large proportion of these gathered here at the end of the age who will take their part in THE great tribulation.

The scape goat class being released into the wilderness the condition of separation from the world, of sorrow and disappointment, (elsewhere referred to as the “land of seclusion” or “cutting off” (cutting off or separated from their more faithful brethren) Compare Matt 25:11, 12 and John 15:2) forced thither by the man of opportunity, unfavorable circumstances, there to be buffeted by the adversity until they learn the vanity, deceitfulness and utter worthlessness of the world’s approval, and until all human hopes and ambitions die, and they are ready to say, God’s will, not mine be done. There they will finally if rightly exercise overcome and surrender up that which they had originally covenanted (their lives), and will join the rest of this class found standing before the throne in heaven with the palms of victory in their hands. (Rev 7:9).

The idea that that the scape-goat was to be cast over a cliff was something the Jewish Rabbis came up with as they figured this was the original intent all along that the scape-goat was to perish. However this was not what the Lord stated was to be done with the scape-goat; he simply said the goat was to be released into the wilderness (Lev 16:22), there to let circumstances take their course.

The Rabbis decided to do things in their own works, just to make sure the goat died and in so doing they disobeyed God. The Lord intended that the Great Company Class would perish in the wilderness condition that the flesh might die so that the spirit should live.

The Lord set this up as a picture or type, the scape-goat must of its own volition chose to surrender its life in order to come off victorious, thus picturing those of this class who finally coming to their senses willingly surrendering that which they have been withholding all along, the hand of the Lord (averse circumstances), setting free these bound ones, “who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb 2:15).

 

[LC627]

Nope, Not at ALL and it is crazy to even believe that. Satan and the demons have their fate sealed.

If you want to resist the devil, quote Scripture like Jesus did. Jesus didn't tell him, "Oh satan if you repent I'll save you too" No! Jesus rebuked satan by speaking Scripture - the Sword of the Spirit.

 

[brakelite]

The scapegoat stems from the OT Day of Atonement. To fully appreciate who Azazel is and his purpose, one needs to understand what takes place throughout the calendar year and God ultimate purpose as regarding sin.
Short answer without references...
Throughout the Jewish religious year sin (both corporately and individually) is confessed upon the sacrificial victim. The sin, in type, is transferred to the victim. That sin through the blood of the victim is then carried into the sanctuary/temple and remains as a testament against the people. On the Day of Atonement, two goats are prepared, lots are drawn, and one goat, upon which no sin is confessed, is sacrificed and the blood carried into the sanctuary, even into the Most Holy Place, and sprinkled there. This 'innocent' blood, again in type, cleanses the sanctuary of all the sin of Israel deposited there the previous year. The sin then thus cleansed from the sanctuary, is transferred to the scapegoat, which was then led 'by a strong man' into the wilderness to die a natural death. Thus all sin was removed from Israel, and the year began afresh. This is why the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) was such a special day. A Sabbath of great consequence...a time of self-evaluation and judgement...anyone with unconfessed sin was cut off from the people.
Remember, this was all a type of what would be the reality through the ministry of the Son of God as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Jesus is the antitype of all that took place in the OT sanctuary services. Our sins were laid upon Christ, our Passover sacrifice. Those sins He carried with Him to heaven, where they are recorded as a testimony against us in the books of record. On the antiypical day of atonement which began with the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary at the end of the 2300 years on October 1844(see Daniel 8:14) those books of record will be wiped clean, through the innocent blood of Christ, and Azazel, Satan, will then be burdened with the full responsibility of all sin for which he was responsible, and die a natural death in the wilderness of the earth at the end of the 1000 year millenium. This is how God deals with sin. Ours was transferred to Christ. Final and full responsibility for the rebellion will ultimately rest on Satan, who began the whole sordid saga. Those who do not repent will bear their own responsibility.
Now that was the short answer. I am sure THBE, if asked, would be only too happy to provide all the scriptural references to back up the above summary.

 

[Nancy]

Well that is kind of yes and no to me...I see what you are saying...but can't totally agree.
It says :- "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual..."

As I read it. The natural is only the shadow of the true ( spirit realm )
So God message to us is the spiritual not the natural...
He is Spirit, we are spirit..His realm is spirit...we know the old saying which goes..." The New is in the Old concealed the Old is in the New revealed. "

So is not the revelation to us spiritually not what God's message is all about?

No true believer tries to dismiss the literal or say the OT is a myth can be taken seriously ( but we've all met 'em) ...but when a person puts more weight on the literal than the spiritual then they are missing the whole point of God revelation.

But your argument is why I say " I cannot make all the bits of that jigsaw fit." If there is truth in it...and I don't discount it...the lights have not 'come on ' for me yet.
I find that is why we all get into so many arguments about scripture. Some people just take each verse literally some spiritually, some see it one way, some the other way....for myself I see many levels of truth hidden in them all.
The bible is a spiritual book, spiritually understood.
Some read the surface, some see a message in every verse ( when God is 'speaking' as they read )
No rights or wrongs...but we have all sat under different teachers in our young christian life...we develop patterns.
I remember my old dad preaching for an hour and he got so much out of an obscure verse ...where Elijah goes to the women house often as had a room for him, with a bed, a table and a candle. And the verse he expounded on was 'and the women came to Elijah and stood in the door....'
The whole room never twitched and we all sat on the edge of our seats...the hour flew by. To my dad, a verse was never just a verse..

Well it's just as well I started this thread...because I am for sure rambling here!!
For your peace of mind , no I do not throw out the literal...and I love the OT...but that is not "the message" ...it is God's pattern of that which was to come.
And I do also believe that we 'tend the garden' of our soul...and watch for the weeds daily. And, there is a 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' within us.
Every day we have the choice to eat of it...or to choose His Spirit who is also within us and is our Life.
Sometimes the Enemy will keep us too busy tending other people's gardens, that we forget our own ...( much like the beam and the speck in the eye)
A wise old man taught us that. At one time we kept getting phone calls at 1am or 2am from a mother how had a daughter who would have demonic attacks.
So obviously we would go. This old guys said to us one day...
" You do know that every single time you get an SOS call from anyone ...you must listen to the Holy Spirit. He will tell you if you are to go or not...because Satan's job is to cause burn out...and if you start doing all this in your own strength, you will burn out. " Wise words...and we lived by it after that.
We are responsible for our own body, soul and spirit...to 'tend and keep it.'

S.O.Songs 1:6 "....my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept. "

Ha! Sorry if this got boring...I do have a bad habit of rambling...and I hate long posts!! And I can't even be bothered to check it for spelling or typos...

Bless you much....H

Sometimes the Enemy will keep us too busy tending other people's gardens, that we forget our own <--- Happens so easily, if we allow and do not recognize satan's wiles! Awesome post BG!

 

[Harvest 1874]

Nope, Not at ALL and it is crazy to even believe that. Satan and the demons have their fate sealed.

If you want to resist the devil, quote Scripture like Jesus did. Jesus didn't tell him, "Oh satan if you repent I'll save you too" No! Jesus rebuked satan by speaking Scripture - the Sword of the Spirit.

Not sure to whom or to what you are responding to, a little clarification might help.

 

[Harvest 1874]

The scapegoat stems from the OT Day of Atonement. To fully appreciate who Azazel is and his purpose, one needs to understand what takes place throughout the calendar year and God ultimate purpose as regarding sin.
Short answer without references...
Throughout the Jewish religious year sin (both corporately and individually) is confessed upon the sacrificial victim. The sin, in type, is transferred to the victim. That sin through the blood of the victim is then carried into the sanctuary/temple and remains as a testament against the people. On the Day of Atonement, two goats are prepared, lots are drawn, and one goat, upon which no sin is confessed, is sacrificed and the blood carried into the sanctuary, even into the Most Holy Place, and sprinkled there. This 'innocent' blood, again in type, cleanses the sanctuary of all the sin of Israel deposited there the previous year. The sin then thus cleansed from the sanctuary, is transferred to the scapegoat, which was then led 'by a strong man' into the wilderness to die a natural death. Thus all sin was removed from Israel, and the year began afresh. This is why the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) was such a special day. A Sabbath of great consequence...a time of self-evaluation and judgement...anyone with unconfessed sin was cut off from the people.
Remember, this was all a type of what would be the reality through the ministry of the Son of God as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Jesus is the antitype of all that took place in the OT sanctuary services. Our sins were laid upon Christ, our Passover sacrifice. Those sins He carried with Him to heaven, where they are recorded as a testimony against us in the books of record. On the antiypical day of atonement which began with the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary at the end of the 2300 years on October 1844(see Daniel 8:14) those books of record will be wiped clean, through the innocent blood of Christ, and Azazel, Satan, will then be burdened with the full responsibility of all sin for which he was responsible, and die a natural death in the wilderness of the earth at the end of the 1000 year millenium. This is how God deals with sin. Ours was transferred to Christ. Final and full responsibility for the rebellion will ultimately rest on Satan, who began the whole sordid saga. Those who do not repent will bear their own responsibility.
Now that was the short answer. I am sure THBE, if asked, would be only too happy to provide all the scriptural references to back up the above summary.

This is a completely different take on what the scriptures teach in regards to the Great Day of Atonement and its meaning, not sure where exactly you acquired this particular view point. It was not for the previous year that Atonement was made, but for the ensuing year.

I will not go into the details here, but for those interested I have provided a complete outline of the Great Day of Atonement located on my blog post on this site entitled Tabernacle Insights, which thoroughly discusses the Great Day of Atonement and its true significance. It can be found here, https://www.christianityboard.com/blogs/the-great-day-of-atonement.1972/