Is the Church in Revelation?

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Trekson

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Was the word church the only term used in the NT to describe us? I will show you that it wasn't. This will probably be long as I will be posting several scriptures but not all of them. Some I will just give the reference to.

The terms: elect, election, elect's and elected are all used to describe the church. One of these terms is used once to describe angels. Elect is used twice in each of Matt. & Mark's record of the Olivet Discourse. According to Strong's it is also used 14 other times to describe the church in general or an individual believer. Lk. 18:7, Rom. 8:33, 9:11, 11:5,7,28, Col. 3:12, Tit. 1:1, 1 Peter 5:13. 2 John 1,13, 1 Thess. 1:4 and 2 Peter 1:10. The best one is 1 Peter 1:1-2 which gives us a definition:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:...”

Another term used to describe the church is chosen. Mark 13:20 uses both chosen and elect: “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.”

It also is used 14 other times: Matt. 20:16, 22:14, John 13:8, 15:16,19, Rom. 16:13, 1 Cor. 1:27-28, Eph. 1:4, 2 Thess. 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:4,9, and Rev. 17:14. Let's compare Rev. 17:14 with Matt. 20:16:

Rev. 17:14 – “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

Matt. 20:16 – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen”

It is true that the word church isn't mentioned after Rev. 3:22, until Rev. 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

It seems to me to be saying that the whole book is for the church but it could be helpful to the latter day Jewish remnant. All the other times the word church is used in Revelations they are speaking of seven literal churches in John's day, not the church in general. But that does not mean the church isn't in Revelations as I will show.

Now we come to an interesting term that dispensationalists like to say only speaks of the Jews and that is the word saints. Here are some interesting facts. This word is used in the much larger section of the bible called the OT only 35 times, while in the much shorter NT it is used prior to Revelations 47 times, 46 of those referring to individual christian believers and/or the church. To me this is enough evidence to conclude that the term used in Revelations 13 times also refers to the church seeing as how it is used more to describe it then it was to describe the Jews. The majority of the references in Revelations are undeniably church related.

Then we have some phrases that are used to describe what can only be the church like, the testimony. Rev. 6:9, 12:11,17, 15:5 and 19:10. Rev. 19:10 says: ...”I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

It is also interesting to note that the Gospel of John, who is supposed by many biblical historians to be the same as the author of Revelations, refers to the testimony of believers 4 times. This is the only one of the gospels to use it in this manner. Is this a coincidence? I think not. John 3:32-33, 5:34 and 21:24.

Here are some other phrases: "washed in the blood". Only Christians as members of the church claim the blood of Christ as our salvation.

Rev. 1:5 – “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood”

Rev. 7:14 – “I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

"Wipe away all tears" Rev. 7:17 echoes the promise of Is. 25:8 – “he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.”

Here's a couple of interesting thoughts. One this verse seems to distinguish a difference between "all faces" (gentiles included) and the disgrace of "His people". Ponder this thought. Is it possible that the OT prophets having no knowledge of the future church, that when they saw people of God in the future assumed them to be Jews; but isn't it possible that some of the time it was the church instead?

Rev. 12:10 can only be talking about the church and the same w/ vs. 17 seeing as the 144,000 are sealed and protected and believing Israel (the woman) is in hiding for 3 1/2 yrs.

"The Book of Life" - Rev. 13:8 – “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.”

To me this implies that there will be people here at the same time whose names are in the book of life which are obviously members of the church. The previous verse 7 is the fulfillment of Dan. 7:21. The saints, as proved earlier, are the church.

Rev. 13:7 – “He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.”

Dan. 7:21 – “As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them

"Patient endurance and faithfulness" are another quality of the church. Rom. 5:3, 12:12, Heb. 6:12, 2 Thess. 1:4, James 1:3, 5:10, Rev. 13:10, 14:12.

Rev.13:10 – “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.”

James 5:10-11: “Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.”

There is a similarity between the ordeal of Job and what the church will go through during the short time of the great trib (which, imo, is upon the church).

Next let's compare the phrase "my people" in Rev. 18:4 with 2 Cor. 6:16-17.

Rev. 18:4 – “Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;”

2 Cor. 6:16-17 – “What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."

Pre-trib rapture believers usually take all the "thief " verses and equate them to a sign-less, imminent rapture ignoring 1 Thess. 5:4, but then you have Rev. 16:15 happening well within the midst of the 70th week. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."(more on this in another thread)

As you can see, the church is all over the Book of Revelations and is not mysteriously missing as is sometimes implied. One must not over emphasize a word like "church" and ignore all the other adjectives in the bible that describes us.
 
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Dave L

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Was the word church the only term used in the NT to describe us? I will show you that it wasn't. This will probably be long as I will be posting several scriptures but not all of them. Some I will just give the reference to.

The terms: elect, election, elect's and elected are all used to describe the church. One of these terms is used once to describe angels. Elect is used twice in each of Matt. & Mark's record of the Olivet Discourse. According to Strong's it is also used 14 other times to describe the church in general or an individual believer. Lk. 18:7, Rom. 8:33, 9:11, 11:5,7,28, Col. 3:12, Tit. 1:1, 1 Peter 5:13. 2 John 1,13, 1 Thess. 1:4 and 2 Peter 1:10. The best one is 1 Peter 1:1-2 which gives us a definition:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:...”

Another term used to describe the church is chosen. Mark 13:20 uses both chosen and elect: “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.”

It also is used 14 other times: Matt. 20:16, 22:14, John 13:8, 15:16,19, Rom. 16:13, 1 Cor. 1:27-28, Eph. 1:4, 2 Thess. 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:4,9, and Rev. 17:14. Let's compare Rev. 17:14 with Matt. 20:16:

Rev. 17:14 – “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

Matt. 20:16 – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen”

It is true that the word church isn't mentioned after Rev. 3:22, until Rev. 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

It seems to me to be saying that the whole book is for the church but it could be helpful to the latter day Jewish remnant. All the other times the word church is used in Revelations they are speaking of seven literal churches in John's day, not the church in general. But that does not mean the church isn't in Revelations as I will show.

Now we come to an interesting term that dispensationalists like to say only speaks of the Jews and that is the word saints. Here are some interesting facts. This word is used in the much larger section of the bible called the OT only 35 times, while in the much shorter NT it is used prior to Revelations 47 times, 46 of those referring to individual christian believers and/or the church. To me this is enough evidence to conclude that the term used in Revelations 13 times also refers to the church seeing as how it is used more to describe it then it was to describe the Jews. The majority of the references in Revelations are undeniably church related.

Then we have some phrases that are used to describe what can only be the church like, the testimony. Rev. 6:9, 12:11,17, 15:5 and 19:10. Rev. 19:10 says: ...”I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

It is also interesting to note that the Gospel of John, who is supposed by many biblical historians to be the same as the author of Revelations, refers to the testimony of believers 4 times. This is the only one of the gospels to use it in this manner. Is this a coincidence? I think not. John 3:32-33, 5:34 and 21:24.

Here are some other phrases: "washed in the blood". Only Christians as members of the church claim the blood of Christ as our salvation.

Rev. 1:5 – “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood”

Rev. 7:14 – “I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

"Wipe away all tears" Rev. 7:17 echoes the promise of Is. 25:8 – “he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.”

Here's a couple of interesting thoughts. One this verse seems to distinguish a difference between "all faces" (gentiles included) and the disgrace of "His people". Ponder this thought. Is it possible that the OT prophets having no knowledge of the future church, that when they saw people of God in the future assumed them to be Jews; but isn't it possible that some of the time it was the church instead?

Rev. 12:10 can only be talking about the church and the same w/ vs. 17 seeing as the 144,000 are sealed and protected and believing Israel (the woman) is in hiding for 3 1/2 yrs.

"The Book of Life" - Rev. 13:8 – “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.”

To me this implies that there will be people here at the same time whose names are in the book of life which are obviously members of the church. The previous verse 7 is the fulfillment of Dan. 7:21. The saints, as proved earlier, are the church.

Rev. 13:7 – “He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.”

Dan. 7:21 – “As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them

"Patient endurance and faithfulness" are another quality of the church. Rom. 5:3, 12:12, Heb. 6:12, 2 Thess. 1:4, James 1:3, 5:10, Rev. 13:10, 14:12.

Rev.13:10 – “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.”

James 5:10-11: “Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.”

There is a similarity between the ordeal of Job and what the church will go through during the short time of the great trib (which, imo, is upon the church).

Next let's compare the phrase "my people" in Rev. 18:4 with 2 Cor. 6:16-17.

Rev. 18:4 – “Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;”

2 Cor. 6:16-17 – “What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."

Pre-trib rapture believers usually take all the "thief " verses and equate them to a sign-less, imminent rapture ignoring 1 Thess. 5:4, but then you have Rev. 16:15 happening well within the midst of the 70th week. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."(more on this in another thread)

As you can see, the church is all over the Book of Revelations and is not mysteriously missing as is sometimes implied. One must not over emphasize a word like "church" and ignore all the other adjectives in the bible that describes us.
How about the 7 churches?
 
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Enoch111

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As you can see, the church is all over the Book of Revelations and is not mysteriously missing as is sometimes implied. One must not over emphasize a word like "church" and ignore all the other adjectives in the bible that describes us.
No it is not all over the book of Revelation. The word "church(es)" is limited to the first three chapters.

From Revelation 6-18 (which present the end-time judgments) the only time that we see the Church is in Revelation 7, and that is in Heaven before the throne of God. Then in Revelation 19 as the Lamb's Wife.

Yes there are other adjectives which describe the Church, but we should stick with what is in Revelation itself. "My people" in Re 18:4 would be the Tribulation Saints (mentioned in Rev 13).
Then we have some phrases that are used to describe what can only be the church like, the testimony. Rev. 6:9, 12:11,17, 15:5 and 19:10.
Rev 6:9 -- Christian martyrs not the entire Church
Rev 12:11 -- Christian martyrs
Rev 12:17 -- the believing Jewish remnant
Rev 15:5 -- the heavenly Sanctuary
Rev 17:14 -- the Second Coming of Christ with His saints and angels
Rev 19:10 -- the angel communicating with John
 

Bible_Gazer

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Yes I think Revelation is about God's people from the time it was written, from the 7 churches day and through out
to the end of the next millennium.
3,000 years of time covering events in Revelation.
History
Present
Future

The 7 churches of Asia were the true Futurist.

Agree with Trekson on the church being through the book in Revelation.
Not just Rev.2 and 3

Just to add
Somebody is going to blow the 7 trumpet message.
The everlasting gospel will be preached
Somebody denies the mark beast, so they had to be there to not except it
The white horse church
The 2 witnesses preaching
The Bride
Souls under the alter
first resurrection group
come out of her my people - they have to go somewhere else, it got to be a true church.
Rev.20 Satan at the close of the end of next millennium war against the saints.
 
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Dave L

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I base my reading of Revelation on the NT definitions of the Kingdom = spiritual not physical. Israel = the Church, not the broken off Jews. The Beast = all totalitarian regimes beginning with Nero and continuing through the Papacy starting in the 9th century and Islam. The Mark of the Beast = patriotism and support for godless laws promoting sin. Satan bound from deceiving by the saints preaching the gospel to all nations but free to carry out God's wrath.
 

Willie T

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Very few seem to understand it, or accept it, but most of the book of The Revelation IS the announcement of the Church.
 
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Trekson

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Tribulation Saints (mentioned in Rev 13

Respectfully, there is no such group. Pre-trib had to create one so they can explain away the obvious presence of the church during the 70th week. BTW, I was pre-trib for 40 yrs. before God opened my eyes.
 

Trekson

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I base my reading of Revelation on the NT definitions of the Kingdom = spiritual not physical. Israel = the Church, not the broken off Jews. The Beast = all totalitarian regimes beginning with Nero and continuing through the Papacy starting in the 9th century and Islam. The Mark of the Beast = patriotism and support for godless laws promoting sin. Satan bound from deceiving by the saints preaching the gospel to all nations but free to carry out God's wrath.

Each to his own.
 

Enoch111

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Respectfully, there is no such group.
Well Revelation 20:4 clearly shows us that there is such a group.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Since the entire Church is NOT beheaded, and only those during the Tribulation (which corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist) were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast, it is reasonable and logical to call them *Tribulation Saints* (as distinct from the Church, which was already raptured before the Antichrist appeared).

And it is more than likely that these were a part of the believing Jewish remnant who believed on Christ while Moses and Elijah preached during the reign of the Antichrist for 1260 days (42 months, 3 1/2 years).

And I will give power unto my two witnesses [Moses and Elijah], and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:3,4).

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: (Malachi 4:4,5)



 

Trekson

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Well Revelation 20:4 clearly shows us that there is such a group.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Nothing here gives us an idea of how large this group is but not every believer that dies under torture in the 70th week will be beheaded. Nothing implies it will be the "entire" anything.

Since the entire Church is NOT beheaded, and only those during the Tribulation (which corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist) were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast, it is reasonable and logical to call them *Tribulation Saints* (as distinct from the Church, which was already raptured before the Antichrist appeared). That is an assumption as are all our viewpoints. None of us can say what we believe about prophecy is the gospel until it becomes history. Personally, I believe the church will be here longer than pre-tribs expect. Thess. does say that the day of his (Christ's) appearing will NOT happen until the man of sin (a/c) is revealed.

And it is more than likely that these were a part of the believing Jewish remnant who believed on Christ while Moses and Elijah preached during the reign of the Antichrist for 1260 days (42 months, 3 1/2 years).
According to scripture Rev. 12:14, they will be in hiding for 1260 days, thus protected.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses [Moses and Elijah], and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:3,4).

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: (Malachi 4:4,5) Personally, I believe the two are Elijah and Enoch.


 

Willie T

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Why is it there’s not much talk about the fifth horseman, being he’s the author of it all?
That is a puzzlement since I happen to believe in a future described in Haggai 2:5-9 (I believe it is) and Revelation 11:15 . But, most "Christians" seem to be hoping for the thrill of bloody vengeance, and the forced compliance of others to worship God.
 
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Waiting on him

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That is a puzzlement since I happen to believe in a future described in Haggai 2:5-9 (I believe it is) and Revelation 11:15 . But, most "Christians" seem to be hoping for the thrill of bloody vengeance, and the forced compliance of others to worship God.
Maybe its that they feel as if they’re being forced into something against their will?
 
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farouk

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Well Revelation 20:4 clearly shows us that there is such a group.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Since the entire Church is NOT beheaded, and only those during the Tribulation (which corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist) were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast, it is reasonable and logical to call them *Tribulation Saints* (as distinct from the Church, which was already raptured before the Antichrist appeared).

And it is more than likely that these were a part of the believing Jewish remnant who believed on Christ while Moses and Elijah preached during the reign of the Antichrist for 1260 days (42 months, 3 1/2 years).

And I will give power unto my two witnesses [Moses and Elijah], and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:3,4).

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: (Malachi 4:4,5)


Tribulation saints seems a good term, yes.
 
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Dave L

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Each to his own.
You need to consider Jesus before running off with wild ideas about Revelation. Charles Manson thought Revelation 9 was about the Beatles having men's faces and hair like women. The sting in their tails were their electric guitars and amplifiers. How is this any different from what others are saying today?