Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him

[Jack]

But it was too late . Sure he desired not the death of his brethren . But for him it was too late .
I am sure many will be wailing and full of regret and misery in that lake of fire .
BUT notice something .
EVEN when the rich man cried out in torments for any kind of mercy . HE NEVER GOT IT .
My advice is GET OFF this false hope stuff and false love stuff you be preaching
and rather preach JESUS CHRIST and the DIRE , EVER SO DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON HIM .
Cause one thing i know and that by grace . IF ONE BELIEVES IN HIM , THEY WONT BE WAILING
at their end as was the rich man . STOP , this instant , cease and dissist from your false hope which will save none
and rather condemn all who bought into it . if you love folks so much , THEN PREACH THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON CHRIST to them .
START WITH THAT and STAY WITH THAT .

Very well said! And they also may held accountable for leading people to Hell.

 

[marks]

I have the idea that you are fearful. (afraid to upset Him, for fear)

That would be you presuming concerning me. That's never a good basis for discussion.

You seem to have the idea that I am irreverent. (judging God)

Irreverent? All I can say is you condemn what the Bible teaches of God. To me this is a clearly defined matter, and is basic to Christianity. Only through faith in Christ will we be saved. Only that. When you die, faith time is over. Then you know. And who wouldn't take the "Get out of jail free" at that time? Everyone wants to save their skin! But those who seek to save their lives will lose them, and those who lose their lives, they will save them.

You speak in vulgar ways concerning God's righteousness and holiness, and His promise to judge everyone. His judgment is not as people judge, excusing this one, accusing that one, His judgment is of our works, and whether we've received life from Him. And those who have no life from Him are the dead, and they are cast to the lake of fire, the second death, where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever". And that's where their story ends.

Much love!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Mainstream Christianity says that the ONLY way to salvation is to accept Jesus in THIS lifetime. However, the verse below is evidence that that belief is inaccurate.

Notice the plural in "devices" in the following verse.

2 Samuel 14:14
14 for we do surely die, and [are] as water which is running down to the earth, which is not gathered, and God doth not accept a person, and hath devised devices in that the outcast is not outcast by Him.

Notice that the verse does NOT say "hath devised a device" (singular).

Preferably, people willingly go to Jesus while in the physical world. By doing so they purify themselves and are saved and healed the nice and easy way.

1 John 3:3 CLNT demonstrates that those who look to Christ purify themselves:
3 And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure.

I think 1 John 3:3 also implies that EVERYONE will be purified but that those who look to Christ purify themselves.

So, what is/are the other "devices" that Jesus uses to purify people so that they do not remain an outcast?

My belief is, the Lake of Fire.

@St. SteVen
@FaithWillDo

Dear Patrick1966,
Yes, Christ has a "plan" that He follows which will draw all mankind to Him. This plan does have a few "devices" which He uses.

In this age, the pathway to salvation for the Elect is as follows:

• The receiving of the Early Rain of the Spirit and entering the church.
• The coming of the spirit of anti-Christ to the believer and their consuming of leavened bread.
• Falling away, the Abomination of Desolation and becoming a Man of Sin.
• Hearing and answering the call of Elijah so that the pathway for Christ is made straight.
• The Second Coming of Christ when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.
• Spiritual blindness healed.
• Marriage Supper when the believer consumes milk, bread, meat and New Wine.
• Christ spiritually appears and gathers the believer to dwell with Him in heaven.
• Judgment in the Lake of Fire. This is the Day of the Lord, which (for the Elect) is also called the Thousand Years Reign.
• Conversion. This is the First Resurrection (Rev 20:5) and it is a spiritual event. In other words, the person's spiritual state of being changes from being a citizen of this world (child of the devil) to being a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven (child of God).
• The time of testing (as Christ "typed" when He was tempted by Satan). After the believer passes this test, they are said to have overcome this world (Rev 3:21).
• The Elect believer's physical death.
• The bodily resurrection at the end of the age.

As for the pathway to salvation that Christ follows in the final age, very little information is given to us in scripture. In fact, very little information about any of the details of the final age is given to us in scripture.

Here is some of what we can know for sure:

The "lost" will be resurrected and found to be the "goats". Their names are not written in the Lamb's book of life. They will be cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment by the Law. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol for that judgment and is not an actual location nor is it literal fire and nor is it "eternal". It's purpose is to destroy the individual in accordance with the Law (the soul that sins shall die).

The goats can be broken down into three groups:

1). The "many" believers who make up the apostate church (the "called" but not chosen).

This will be a very large percentage of those who received the Early Rain and were called out from the world. Most of the called out were not chosen to receive the Latter Rain and salvation during their lifetimes. They simply were not blessed through no fault of their own.

2). The physical descendants of Abraham (the Jewish Nation).

Excluded from this group are the "faithful" remnant and those who were "chosen" under the New Covenant. The blessed Jews will be a very small percentage of the Jewish Nation.

3). The unbelievers. This will be the largest group.

The primary difference in the pathway to salvation for the "lost" of the final age is that they will be judged PRIOR to their new birth as a child of God. Because of this difference, they will feel the full wrath of God during their time of judgment.

With the Elect in this age, they are judged AFTER they have been born again as a child of God. They will be a new creation and will reign with Christ over their own judgment. They will not experience wrath.

The common thread of the judgment of the Elect and the judgment of the "lost" in the final age is that both groups will be judged and destroyed in the Lake of Fire. All mankind is "condemned already" because all mankind has sinned (John 3:18). After Christ has judged all mankind, mankind will cease to exist. However, the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

This verse applies to the judgment of the "lost" in the final age:

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Christ will not omit the weightier matters of the Law when He judges the "lost". Before they are destroyed, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the Holy Spirit which will give them a new birth into the Kingdom of Heaven. This truth is presented in Joel chapter 2 which is one of the few portions of scripture which deals with the final age.

Note: Salvation comes to mankind solely by the physical and spiritual work of Christ. Mankind has nothing to contribute. Christ begins His spiritual work by giving an individual the Early Rain. The Early Rain is the earnest of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14) and is what gives a person a measure of faith. This faith is what calls them out from the world. Until Christ gives a person the Early Rain, they will remain an unbeliever. But since the Early Rain is only a down payment of the full amount, the believer is left carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. To be saved, a person also needs the Latter Rain (the full amount, the baptism of the Spirit). After Christ does His full spiritual work within a person, they will be made into a new creation (a child of God). The old person (the old vessel) will be destroyed and gone forever but the new vessel will live forever.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Christ completed His physical work at the cross and it was accomplished under the Old Covenant. Upon His resurrection from the grave, Christ began His spiritual work under the New Covenant.

Because Christ's physical work was completed at the cross, all the remaining prophecies of scripture are being fulfilled spiritually under the New Covenant. These prophecies will not be fulfilled outwardly and physically in this world where mankind can witness them. Christ's work of saving mankind is now spiritual and this is what these prophecies present. They are fulfilled "within" a person.

This truth I have explained above is supported by this verse:

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ will remain in the spiritual realm until the last person is saved in the final age. There will be no physically visible second coming to the earth at the end of this age. Christ's second coming is a spiritual event and it occurs when He Christ comes to an Elect person and gives them the Latter Rain. With the Latter Rain, the new birth will occur and Christ will then spiritually appear to the person at that time. Christ's second coming is when He brings salvation to those who are waiting for His return. It is a reoccurring event within the life of each Elect believer.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ first appeared physically. When He comes a second time, He appears spiritually.

Joe

 

[marks]

No basis? As in chapter and verse? I suppose not. But...
I have a clear picture in my mind, be it right or wrong.
And I would defend that picture saying, it is based on everything
I have learned about God and the afterlife. I think we know plenty.

Yes, you have a clear picture in mind, and I'm certain it makes a lot of sense to you. For myself, I think about the differences in our various cultures. I imagine someone alive today in America trying to imagine and understand living in poverty in feudal Japan, or any number of instance I could bring up, and we'd only be scratching the surface on what will be different when our flesh is stripped away. Or more to the point, when the flesh of the unregenerate is stripped away, and there stands the naked and dead soul before God.

As a doctrinal argument, I don't really put weight into speculations of what people will think in such a situation, other than those places the Bible tells us about it.

Jesus tells of those who demand entrance because they claimed good works, but Jesus tells them they were workers of lawlessness. And they are sent away. No more said.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Putting those he did not predestine for eternal life

No, you need to choose. Repent, or in the same way you also will perish. God has set before you life, that you can receive for your death. And He urges you to receive His reconciliation. Now is the time, today is the day.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Was Jesus misleading us in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

Those in the story can see, speak, feel comfort and discomfort.
The Rich Man was thirsty. He sought water to cool his tongue.
He had compassion on his brothers, not wanting them to end up in his situation.

Yes, this story certainly gives us insight into that place, though this is in Sheol, and we've been speaking of the final judgment and the lake of fire, is that not right?

Much love!

 

[Patrick1966]

Dear Patrick1966,
Yes, Christ has a "plan" that He follows which will draw all mankind to Him. This plan does have a few "devices" which He uses.

In this age, the pathway to salvation for the Elect is as follows:

• The receiving of the Early Rain of the Spirit and entering the church.
• The coming of the spirit of anti-Christ to the believer and their consuming of leavened bread.
• Falling away, the Abomination of Desolation and becoming a Man of Sin.
• Hearing and answering the call of Elijah so that the pathway for Christ is made straight.
• The Second Coming of Christ when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.
• Spiritual blindness healed.
• Marriage Supper when the believer consumes milk, bread, meat and New Wine.
• Christ spiritually appears and gathers the believer to dwell with Him in heaven.
• Judgment in the Lake of Fire. This is the Day of the Lord, which (for the Elect) is also called the Thousand Years Reign.
• Conversion. This is the First Resurrection (Rev 20:5) and it is a spiritual event. In other words, the person's spiritual state of being changes from being a citizen of this world (child of the devil) to being a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven (child of God).
• The time of testing (as Christ "typed" when He was tempted by Satan). After the believer passes this test, they are said to have overcome this world (Rev 3:21).
• The Elect believer's physical death.
• The bodily resurrection at the end of the age.

As for the pathway to salvation that Christ follows in the final age, very little information is given to us in scripture. In fact, very little information about any of the details of the final age is given to us in scripture.

Here is some of what we can know for sure:

The "lost" will be resurrected and found to be the "goats". Their names are not written in the Lamb's book of life. They will be cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment by the Law. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol for that judgment and is not an actual location nor is it literal fire and nor is it "eternal". It's purpose is to destroy the individual in accordance with the Law (the soul that sins shall die).

The goats can be broken down into three groups:

1). The "many" believers who make up the apostate church (the "called" but not chosen).

This will be a very large percentage of those who received the Early Rain and were called out from the world. Most of the called out were not chosen to receive the Latter Rain and salvation during their lifetimes. They simply were not blessed through no fault of their own.

2). The physical descendants of Abraham (the Jewish Nation).

Excluded from this group are the "faithful" remnant and those who were "chosen" under the New Covenant. The blessed Jews will be a very small percentage of the Jewish Nation.

3). The unbelievers. This will be the largest group.

The primary difference in the pathway to salvation for the "lost" of the final age is that they will be judged PRIOR to their new birth as a child of God. Because of this difference, they will feel the full wrath of God during their time of judgment.

With the Elect in this age, they are judged AFTER they have been born again as a child of God. They will be a new creation and will reign with Christ over their own judgment. They will not experience wrath.

The common thread of the judgment of the Elect and the judgment of the "lost" in the final age is that both groups will be judged and destroyed in the Lake of Fire. All mankind is "condemned already" because all mankind has sinned (John 3:18). After Christ has judged all mankind, mankind will cease to exist. However, the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

This verse applies to the judgment of the "lost" in the final age:

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Christ will not omit the weightier matters of the Law when He judges the "lost". Before they are destroyed, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the Holy Spirit which will give them a new birth into the Kingdom of Heaven. This truth is presented in Joel chapter 2 which is one of the few portions of scripture which deals with the final age.

Note: Salvation comes to mankind solely by the physical and spiritual work of Christ. Mankind has nothing to contribute. Christ begins His spiritual work by giving an individual the Early Rain. The Early Rain is the earnest of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14) and is what gives a person a measure of faith. This faith is what calls them out from the world. Until Christ gives a person the Early Rain, they will remain an unbeliever. But since the Early Rain is only a down payment of the full amount, the believer is left carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. To be saved, a person also needs the Latter Rain (the full amount, the baptism of the Spirit). After Christ does His full spiritual work within a person, they will be made into a new creation (a child of God). The old person (the old vessel) will be destroyed and gone forever but the new vessel will live forever.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Christ completed His physical work at the cross and it was accomplished under the Old Covenant. Upon His resurrection from the grave, Christ began His spiritual work under the New Covenant.

Because Christ's physical work was completed at the cross, all the remaining prophecies of scripture are being fulfilled spiritually under the New Covenant. These prophecies will not be fulfilled outwardly and physically in this world where mankind can witness them. Christ's work of saving mankind is now spiritual and this is what these prophecies present. They are fulfilled "within" a person.

This truth I have explained above is supported by this verse:

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ will remain in the spiritual realm until the last person is saved in the final age. There will be no physically visible second coming to the earth at the end of this age. Christ's second coming is a spiritual event and it occurs when He Christ comes to an Elect person and gives them the Latter Rain. With the Latter Rain, the new birth will occur and Christ will then spiritually appear to the person at that time. Christ's second coming is when He brings salvation to those who are waiting for His return. It is a reoccurring event within the life of each Elect believer.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ first appeared physically. When He comes a second time, He appears spiritually.

Joe

Another amazing post, Joe. Thank you.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I have the idea that you are fearful. (afraid to upset Him, for fear)

That would be you presuming concerning me. That's never a good basis for discussion.

You seem to be evasive about this. It was an observation, not an accusation.
I sought clarification, but I get... this.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
You seem to have the idea that I am irreverent. (judging God)

Irreverent? All I can say is you condemn what the Bible teaches of God. To me this is a clearly defined matter, and is basic to Christianity.

What the Bible teaches of God? A clearly defined matter? Basic to Christianity?
You seem to think that there is only ONE view of these things. Your view.

Only through faith in Christ will we be saved. Only that. When you die, faith time is over. Then you know. And who wouldn't take the "Get out of jail free" at that time? Everyone wants to save their skin! But those who seek to save their lives will lose them, and those who lose their lives, they will save them.

Where was Jesus for three days before he rose from the dead?

You speak in vulgar ways concerning God's righteousness and holiness, and His promise to judge everyone.

Sacred cow makes the best hamburger.

His judgment is not as people judge, excusing this one, accusing that one, His judgment is of our works, and whether we've received life from Him.

As that what God is about? Punishing everyone for the way they lived. As if he is surprised.

And those who have no life from Him are the dead, and they are cast to the lake of fire, the second death, where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever". And that's where their story ends.

Where their story ends? Not according to you. ("the smoke of their torment ascends forever") Where is the end in that?
Eternal torment as payment for a finite crime, with no hope of forgiveness or escape. Is that what God is about?

 

[St. SteVen]

No, you need to choose. Repent, or in the same way you also will perish. God has set before you life, that you can receive for your death. And He urges you to receive His reconciliation. Now is the time, today is the day.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support available. Just ask.

 

[marks]

St. SteVen said:
I have the idea that you are fearful. (afraid to upset Him, for fear)

You seem to be evasive about this. It was an observation, not an accusation.
I sought clarification, but I get... this.

If you have a question, feel free to ask. But then again, I'm not the topic here. What have I said that would give you the idea that I'm afraid of God being with me? I have a hard time relating to your idea of God "showing up". He has promised to never leave me, never forsake me. I'm alive unto Him. This is a reality, not just "spiritual sounding words".

Much love!

 

[marks]

No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

In the present day.

Tell me, do you believe Satan will be redeemed? And the angels who rebelled along with him? What of the unclean spirits, will they be redeemed to enjoy glory with God forever?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sacred cow makes the best hamburger.

Enjoy! It's not to my taste.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus has already paid the death penalty on our behalf.
He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

That means not only for the Jews who believe but for those who believe of the nations as well (Gentiles).

 

[St. SteVen]

In the present day.

On earth, in heaven and under the earth, in the present day? How can that be?

Tell me, do you believe Satan will be redeemed? And the angels who rebelled along with him? What of the unclean spirits, will they be redeemed to enjoy glory with God forever?

It will require an entire age. (Day)
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess...
I imagine Satan as the last one in line. The ultimate triumph of God's redeeming grace.

Do you HATE to hear me say such a thing?

 

[Jack]

On earth, in heaven and under the earth, in the present day? How can that be?

It will require an entire age. (Day)
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess...
I imagine Satan as the last one in line. The ultimate triumph of God's redeeming grace.

Do you HATE to hear me say such a thing?

You believe Satan will be saved? lol
Have you ever read the Christian Bible?

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Jesus has already paid the death penalty on our behalf.
He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

That means not only for the Jews who believe but for those who believe of the nations as well (Gentiles).

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[marks]

Do you HATE to hear me say such a thing?

You are plainly refuted by Scripture. And no need to project some emotionalism.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You believe Satan will be saved? lol
Have you ever read the Christian Bible?

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Just so. There really isn't any question about what these words say, only, are we willing to submit our minds to what they say.

Just as we don't understand what the condemned will think or feel about being cast into the lake of fire, we also don't really know what the redeemed will think and feel about these things in the transformed state, with no fleshy interference, only God's POV illuminating everything.

The real look at unbelief and rebellion, unvarnished, no rose colored glasses, only the the brutal reality of death and corruption and ruin of the one who chose evil over trusting Jesus. Who refused to come to the light because they loved their sin.

Just what will we see when we see in God's pure light, the exact truth, the reality, of ourselves?

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

I wish that I could say that I believe that I am filled with the Holy Spirit.

Patrick, the Spirit testifies to Jesus; that's his role and those who have the Spirit do likewise. If you doubt it we can ask, 'what was/ is the witness of the disciples/ apostles? We can ask ourselves, 'what do I testify to?'
Yup, it's confronting......yet it affords an opportunity for self honesty ....and courage