Is that also the opinion of the Catholic church, which you are a member of?
Tong
R1258
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Tong
R1258
Philip James
Well-Known Member
I don't know of any doctrinal position of the Church on this question, but I believe my opinion is within the bounda of the Church Catholic.
If this or anything that I post contradicts the teaching of the Church, then I am the one who is in error and I will submit to the correction of my brethren...
Lean not on your own understanding.
Peace!
<<<Did Jesus start a Church?>>>
To be precise, Jesus build His church and is building it even now.
<<<Where did the Bible come from?>>>
I guess you wanted to imply that it's from the Catholic church. What does that prove? You might say your Church first have the Bible. However, are they the author of scriptures that you say that the word of God (the Bible) came from the Church? The word of God could only come from God. That one would say that it came from anyone else is a grave mistake, if not a grave insult to the author.
Besides, does having scriptures save the man? No sir. For the salvation of God, which is by His grace, is through faith in Him, in the Lord Jesus Christ. Today, the Bible is available practically to all peoples. But Jesus said, "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." And Jesus said "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."
(@Prayer Warrior )
Tong
R1259
What did the chosen and inspired apostles believed and preached? That's the bottom line, isn't it? And not the so called Church fathers you say. What they believe and teach needs to be tested and checked if they are in keeping with the scriptures.
Tong
R1260
<<<Would God allow anybody to turn bread and wine into his body and blood?>>>
No man has the power to turn bread and wine into Jesus' body and blood that God may or may not allow it.
<<<Were there priest in the old testament that were only allowed to perform the sacfrices? - Yes.>>>
Yes, there were priests in the OT, under the Levitical priesthood. However, in NT, every believer have access to God, through Jesus Christ, or in His name, could pray to God.
Tong
R1261
Well, I guessed you are a member of the Catholic Church. I am not. So, you tell me. And are you now telling me that you are not sure if your opinion that the apostles were saved the day Jesus chose them agrees with the teachings of your Church?
Tong
R1262
@Philip James
Perhaps you don't know also what your Church's doctrinal position on the questions:
1. In the so called transubstantiation of the wafer and the wine into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ respectively, does the wafer and wine becomes imperishable?
2. Why do not the Church have them who partake of the wafer, partake of the wine (at least to my knowledge), and only the priest, each and every time the so called Eucharist is done?
Tong
R1263
Perhaps you don't know also what your Church's doctrinal position on the questions:
1. In the so called transubstantiation of the wafer and the wine into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ respectively, does the wafer and wine becomes imperishable?
2. Why do not the Church have them who partake of the wafer, partake of the wine (at least to my knowledge), and only the priest, each and every time the so called Eucharist is done?
Tong
R1263
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What do you mean, "what's your point"? The point is the Catholic Church does not conduct a meeting of the saints the way Paul says to. But the Catholic Church is sure they are the most accurate church in existence.
No, that does not offend me. What offends me is the church, especially the Catholic Church, does that to the exclusion of 1 Corinthians 14:26-31.
Churches think one draws close to God through rituals and liturgy. In the case of Communion, it isn't the ritual that draws one close to God. It's the remembering of Christ's love on the cross for us that draws us into fellowship with the Spirit. But churches, especially the Catholic church turn the outer trappings of worship into the actual thing that draws us close to God. That, my friend is cold, dead 'religion'. Once you fellowship, and praise and worship in a Spirit-filled meeting of the saints conducted in accordance with the Bible you will never go back to the cold, dead liturgy of the mainline churches.
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
Repectfully, Phillip, whose heart and mind are you talking about? The verses in 1 Cor 14 show God's heart and mind as believers are led by the Holy Spirit in worship and the sharing of their spiritual gifts. Can you honestly say that the Catholic liturgy resembles what Paul describes in the slightest? I don't see that "high church" in any denomination resembles the gathering of the early Christians as they were moved by the Holy Spirit to prophesy and speak in tongues and issue words of knowledge, etc.
It is the Holy Spirit's mind and heart that should be demonstrated as Christians gather to worship and minister to one another using the gifts of the Spirit. I have seen this work in today's church where believers were under the power and control of the Holy Spirit!! Many Catholics and Protestants alike reject certain gifts of the Spirit, and it's a shame! I believe that revival will come to the West, and believers who have rejected these gifts will see that all of the gifts of the Spirit listed in the Bible are still in operation and needed in the church today. This is my earnest prayer!
.
Just because in your own mind you believe you're a believer of Christ, doesn't make you a believer.
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6:47
So you're a Calvinist?
This makes absolutely no sense. If the real reason the disciples left Jesus was because they were not drawn by the Father, not by lack of faith, then this would prove that believing in Jesus does not guarantee eternal salvation, and that our loving God may reject faithful obedient disciples of Christ.
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6:47
So you're a Calvinist?
Philip James
Well-Known Member
The heart and mind of the Church, which is the heart and mind of Christ.
I think so, yes.
At Mass today, a member began with a beautiful hymn, accompanied by another member on piano, the rest of us joining in as we were able..
After confessing our responsibility for our faults and asking all our brothers and sisters to pray for us, we implored Jesus for His mercy, asking it for all..
Then a member stood and shared a word from Ezekiel, that the righteous if they turn from doing right and act wickedly will die, and that the wicked if they turn from their wickedness and act righteously will live..
when they were done, we all gave thanks to God.
Then a member sang a psalm to which we responded 'remember Your mercy, O Lord'
Then a member stood and shared a word from Paul, that we are called to be of one mind and one love, to walk humbly with each other, esteeming one another as better than ourselves..
for which we again gave thanks to God
then another member sang the Gospel acclimation and we joyfully accompanied with alleluias..
Then our presbyter shared a word from Jesus, the story of the two sons, one who said yes to his father and then did not obey, and they other who said no, but then did his fathers will..
after which we all gave praise to our Lord, Jesus Christ.
there followed a homily from our presbyter exhorting us to remember these things and apply them to our lives, that we may not just be hearers of the word but doers of our Father's will...
This we call the liturgy of the Word, and yes I would say that resembles what Paul described, everything done in peace and order, in the unity of the Holy Spirit.
It was followed by the liturgy of the Eucharist wherein we offered the pure sacrifice foretold in malachi 1:11.
Peace be with you!
Would the US government allow anyone to interpret the US constitution without the court system guiding them? If anybody can determine law by their own interpretation, we would have complete chaos! This is what we have in non-catholic christian religions, interpretation chaos. Though you may have a good heart and mean well, how many people have you misguided over the years. You need to put common sense into play my friend.
Here's some common sense:
- Jesus established a Church and gave the Church the keys to the kingdom of heaven, along with binding and losing authority - Matt 16
- Only the Catholic Church can claim that it was established by Jesus
- The early Church Fathers are Catholic
- Who owned back then and still owns the ancient write scripture scrolls? The Church did and still does; located at the Vatican in their massive library
- The Bible was not created until around the 4th century
- If there was no bible, who did the teaching? The Church that Jesus established did the teaching with the scripture scrolls
- Very few people could read back then
- There was no printing press; it took a year for a scholar writer to write out the Bible
- The Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church using her binding and losing authority, which you believe in indirectly
- Thousand of writings were voted on; the Church used her binding and losing during several Catholic Councils including the Council of Rome to compile the Bible
- You follow an ex catholic priest via the protestant reform of the 1500s - a human being
- etc...
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Tong2020 said:
My first post under this thread was my answer to that question. That's post #28.
"Because it has not been granted to them by the Father. They were not given by the Father to the Son for salvation."
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
And no, I am not a Calvinist. I don't follow Mr. Calvin. I am a Christian. I follow Christ. How about you, whom do you follow?
Tong
R1264
My first post under this thread was my answer to that question. That's post #28.
"Because it has not been granted to them by the Father. They were not given by the Father to the Son for salvation."
Perhaps no sense to you. But for those who believe in the words of Jesus Christ, it definitely make sense.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
And no, I am not a Calvinist. I don't follow Mr. Calvin. I am a Christian. I follow Christ. How about you, whom do you follow?
Tong
R1264
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, and I do not ever want to go one. I've been subjected to enough dry, boring, dead liturgy in the Protestant church to know I don't need any more. I will never go back to a church like that. The Spirit of God inhabits the meeting of the saints when conducted the way Paul says to do it. I know this from experience.
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Brother,
Is it fair to say we have a dead liturgy if you have never been to one?
Come to the Paschal Vigil this year and see. Try the Orthodox liturgy if you prefer...
experience the meeting of the Eternal and His people...
Peace be with you!
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
Hi, Phillip, I’m glad that you had a blessed time at church today. I just have one question for you.
Were all believers welcome at the Lord’s Table?
.
Philip James
Well-Known Member
All who believe are welcome to come to the Feast,
However, we have a duty to ensure one does belive
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself
And that they are properly prepared
But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment.
He said to him, 'My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?' But he was reduced to silence.
Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.'
And that they are properly disposed to receive the King of Glory,
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord
Do you believe?
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water
Peace be with you!
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
So, how does this work? Could someone who is not a member of the Catholic Church "come to the Feast?" IOW, could they partake of the "Eucharist"?
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