let me make this clear, neither I , nor you establish reality. It is God Who establishes reality.
Nobody says otherwise.
so then, when Jesus says 'this is my body', it is either true or not true independently of my belief, or your unbelief.
But Jesus speaks either literally or figuratively. So that is the first thing the reader should be able to determine, right Philip?
For 2000 years the Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria, and the Church in Constantinople have professed that Jesus really meant what He said and that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and that this we have received from the apostles...
Where is the 2000 year old Christian community that says otherwise?
Not that some man from some 2000 years ago professed that the bread transforms into the literal body of Jesus and the wine into the literal blood of Christ, and was passed on by tradition to you, necessarily makes it the truth. You yourself know that during those times, scriptures was not available to people as it is now. Only the privileged few, the leaders and elders of the church, and perhaps a few very very rich, who have a copy of the scriptures, and those who are literate can go to scriptures and read. The rest of the people have no other recourse but to believe what these people tell them is the truth. And these people who read the scriptures do make mistakes. So, if there is a mistake, and they taught it to be the truth, to the people, these mistakes becomes the truth to them. And because the people have no way to examine such teaching, whether they are in keeping with scriptures or not, such mistake is not corrected but passed on by tradition to be the truth, though it is not. But today we have the scriptures to go to, to examine whether a certain teaching passed on by tradition is in keeping with scriptures or not. For only the words of God in scriptures is infallible and unchanging and is the truth.
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Tong2020 said:
And by the way, how are the words of Jesus spirit? Here were the words of Jesus in John 6:55, "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." Can you explain to us how those words are spirit?
Jesus' words are spirit because they are Truth! And the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Truth!
This is what Jesus said "The words that I speak to you are spirit, and
they are life.", which is different from what you say "Jesus' words are spirit because they are Truth!".
The question is how are the words of Jesus, spirit?
So you get what I am asking, let me ask in addition, are the words of Satan, spirit?
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Tong2020 said:
My question, do you say that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ at that supper?
If Jesus said that, I too will believe Him. But where did Jesus said that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally His body and blood?
This is my Body. Take and eat
Different statement than saying that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally His body and blood. So, there is the problem.
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Tong2020 said:
Anyway, so you believe that. In your belief then, all the apostles ate of the literal flesh of Jesus and had drank of the literal blood of Jesus at the last supper, right? Right. And what did Jesus said when one eats of His flesh and blood? Did not Jesus said "This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."? However, all the apostles are dead...
Have you not heard? Our God is the God of the living!
Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,
and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
The apostles are very much alive.
All you holy apostles, pray for us!
In a wedding, Jesus transformed water into wine, so that, the guests literally drank not literal water, but drank literal wine. That was just a simple wedding event. But in this very significant last supper, Jesus did not transform the bread into His literal flesh and the wine into His literal blood. Just a thought for you.
So, clearly you believe that the bread and the fruit of the vine became literally the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ at that supper. In your belief, at the last supper, the apostles (including Judas) ate of the literal bread (transformed into the literal body of Jesus), and they drank of the literal wine (transformed into the literal blood of Jesus). And Jesus too ate and drank, right? And like the apostles, He believed too that the bread and wine, while they remain literal bread and wine, were transformed into His literal flesh and blood, right? Well, there it goes....
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Tong2020 said:
Yes. It was for in remembrance of Jesus Christ, that they are to break bread as they did in that night before His death. Also, scriptures said that as often as they do that, they proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. There is not in scriptures that speaks of any other purpose or reason pertaining to the coming together of the brethren to eat the Lord’s Supper, than those.
Ex 12:6
1Cor 10:16-18
Mal 1:11
Heb 13:10
ezek 37:27
Eph 5:31-32
You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!
Peace be with you!
Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
Not one of those cited scriptures tells us of a reason or purpose pertaining to the coming together of the brethren to eat the Lord’s Supper. Misuse of scriptures there, if they are made to speak what they don't.
Tong
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