JOHN'S BAPTISM

[Doug]

1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. JOHN 1:31


It can be seen here that John's baptism was to prepare Israel to recognize the promised coming Messiah.

John's baptism was to identify Jesus as the Christ, The Son of God to Israel; to prepare Israel for the coming kingdom.

John's baptism is not for us, it was for Israel.

 

[Episkopos]

1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. JOHN 1:31


It can be seen here that John's baptism was to prepare Israel to recognize the promised coming Messiah.

John's baptism was to identify Jesus as the Christ, The Son of God to Israel; to prepare Israel for the coming kingdom.

John's baptism is not for us, it was for Israel.

John's baptism established an authority outside the religious structures that men had erected. God always does this. He does not come under an established authority of men.

So then John prepared a people to receive a man under God's authority...apart from what men recognize as religiously correct.

But men are stubborn that way...refusing to come under God's authority.

Mat. 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

 

[Helen]

1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. JOHN 1:31


It can be seen here that John's baptism was to prepare Israel to recognize the promised coming Messiah.

John's baptism was to identify Jesus as the Christ, The Son of God to Israel; to prepare Israel for the coming kingdom.

John's baptism is not for us, it was for Israel.

I totally agree with this..

 

[Nancy]

What should we do with the NT scriptures telling us to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

 

[larry2]

What should we do with the NT scriptures telling us to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

There are different orders concerning baptism, and to be applied for different contexts, and dispensations.
One was for Israel according to John’s baptism, and that to make them ready to receive Jesus’ coming ministry.

John the Baptist
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Peter
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them (To Who? Israel), Repent (Think differently), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In other words, Israel you haven’t kept the law, and without Jesus there is no remission of sins.
What of water baptism for the remainder of humanity? Peter even follows this in 1 Pet 3:21? The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Even now much of the Church doesn’t understand the separation of the order of Jesus in Mar 16:15. And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized (what baptism?) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
by A.S. Copley
"One baptism." This cannot be baptism in water; for that is only a memorial, a symbolic baptism. Water baptism answers to circumcision under the Old Covenant, which was a "sign," "a seal" - Romans 4:11. If baptism in water were the "one baptism," then the baptism in the Spirit would be no baptism or it would have a secondary place only which is impossible. How unworthy of the dear Holy Spirit, to presume to assign to a symbol what belongs to one of the three Persons of the Godhead. The "one baptism" is unmistakably the baptism in the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist and Jesus both spoke of this baptism - Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5. This baptism occurred on the day of Pentecost. Study the following verse: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" - I Corinthians 12:13. In this citation, we read plainly of the first, of the second, and of the sixth "ones" - the "one Body," the "one Spirit," and the "one baptism." The mystical Body of Christ, called the Church, was sovereignly constituted on the day of Pentecost.”

Where was the gospel preached?
Col 1:23 . . . be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
What about Jesus telling the apostles in Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (When are nations going to be dealt with?), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
For this present time we were told in Col 3:17, And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Enough for now.

 

[Enoch111]

John's baptism is not for us, it was for Israel.

John's baptism was indeed for Israel, and was not identical to Christian baptism. Both were by immersion (or submersion as expressed by baptisma), but that is where the similarity ended.

JOHN'S BAPTISM UNTO REPENTANCE
Then went out to him [John] Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, [exclusively Jews] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins...Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance... I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire... (Mt 3:5-11).


CHRISTIAN BAPTISM UNTO NEWNESS OF LIFE
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, [both Jews and Gentiles] baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mt 28:18-20)

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him... (Rom 6:3-8)

 

[Enoch111]

What should we do with the NT scriptures telling us to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Obey that command unquestioningly. Those are the words of Christ, to whom all power in Heaven and earth was given.

 

[Helen]

Good post @larry2

 

[Nancy]

There are different orders concerning baptism, and to be applied for different contexts, and dispensations.
One was for Israel according to John’s baptism, and that to make them ready to receive Jesus’ coming ministry.

John the Baptist
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Peter
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them (To Who? Israel), Repent (Think differently), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In other words, Israel you haven’t kept the law, and without Jesus there is no remission of sins.
What of water baptism for the remainder of humanity? Peter even follows this in 1 Pet 3:21? The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Even now much of the Church doesn’t understand the separation of the order of Jesus in Mar 16:15. And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized (what baptism?) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
by A.S. Copley
"One baptism." This cannot be baptism in water; for that is only a memorial, a symbolic baptism. Water baptism answers to circumcision under the Old Covenant, which was a "sign," "a seal" - Romans 4:11. If baptism in water were the "one baptism," then the baptism in the Spirit would be no baptism or it would have a secondary place only which is impossible. How unworthy of the dear Holy Spirit, to presume to assign to a symbol what belongs to one of the three Persons of the Godhead. The "one baptism" is unmistakably the baptism in the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist and Jesus both spoke of this baptism - Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5. This baptism occurred on the day of Pentecost. Study the following verse: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" - I Corinthians 12:13. In this citation, we read plainly of the first, of the second, and of the sixth "ones" - the "one Body," the "one Spirit," and the "one baptism." The mystical Body of Christ, called the Church, was sovereignly constituted on the day of Pentecost.”

Where was the gospel preached?
Col 1:23 . . . be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
What about Jesus telling the apostles in Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (When are nations going to be dealt with?), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
For this present time we were told in Col 3:17, And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Enough for now.

So then you do not see "water baptism" as necessary?? Because if you say you do see it as Jesus command then, there is no more "one baptism"- it becomes two. if you say you do not find it to be necessary then you outwardly disobey Jesus command TO be baptized, and His disciples DID baptize many in water. JMO ♥

 

[Helen]

So then you do not see "water baptism" as necessary?? Because if you say you do see it as Jesus command then, there is no more "one baptism"- it becomes two. if you say you do not find it to be necessary then you outwardly disobey Jesus command TO be baptized, and His disciples DID baptize many in water. JMO ♥

I was baptised in water 6 weeks after I became a believer...but personally, unless it is spiritually understand and not just the actual exercise of doing it...it is just an empty ritual with no power.
Just something to check off as a "to do" list that we are told to do when we are new Christians.
The power is in what it stands for, not the actual doing of it...so, I am not a hard and fast believer that it 'must be done.'
But, that's just me.... x

 

[Nancy]

I was baptised in water 6 weeks after I became a believer...but personally, unless it is spiritually understand and not just the actual exercise of doing it...it is just an empty ritual with no power.
Just something to check off as a "to do" list that we are told to do when we are new Christians.
The power is in what it stands for, not the actual doing of it...so, I am not a hard and fast believer that it 'must be done.'
But, that's just me.... x

"unless it is spiritually understand and not just the actual exercise of doing it...it is just an empty ritual with no power. " Indeed. I was baptized as an infant in the CC but, again in 1993 or 4 as an adult. I also do not believe one who has been saved before they CAN be baptized, becomes any less saved or more saved with water baptism...I only did it because Jesus said to, lol! And, to rise from the immersion-symbolically washed of sin into a new creature in Christ confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord...then we all ate.

 

[Helen]

"unless it is spiritually understand and not just the actual exercise of doing it...it is just an empty ritual with no power. " Indeed. I was baptized as an infant in the CC but, again in 1993 or 4 as an adult. I also do not believe one who has been saved before they CAN be baptized, becomes any less saved or more saved with water baptism...I only did it because Jesus said to, lol! And, to rise from the immersion-symbolically washed of sin into a new creature in Christ confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord...then we all ate.

Agree.
Also the beauty of water baptism is a strong weapon in time of spiritual battle...we have a day to point to say say to the devil..."I died with Him...I am raised with Him...I am IN Him..."
We resist from the position of power in Christ.
Not one person told me why I was being baptised, just " Do it, it is required." It meant absolutely NOTHING to me.
About 3 decades later I saw the power in it and what was actually happening in the Spirit at that time!!

 

[Nancy]

Agree.
Also the beauty of water baptism is a strong weapon in time of spiritual battle...we have a day to point to say say to the devil..."I died with Him...I am raised with Him...I am IN Him..."
We resist from the position of power in Christ.
Not one person told me why I was being baptised, just " Do it, it is required." It meant absolutely NOTHING to me.
About 3 decades later I saw the power in it and what was actually happening in the Spirit at that time!!

Yes, I suppose we sure could use this as yet another weapon in our arsenal

 

[Enoch111]

The power is in what it stands for, not the actual doing of it...so, I am not a hard and fast believer that it 'must be done.'

Except that those are not the words of Christ or the apostles. Did the household of Cornelius immediately understand the meaning of water baptism, or the power thereof? Yet Peter COMMANDED them to be baptized. Therefor "it must be done". And Christ commanded Ananias to baptize Paul, although he was totally reluctant to do so.

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (Acts 10:47,48)

"The name of the Lord" is also the name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And that is how the early Christians baptized according to the Didache (The Teachings of the Twelve).

 

[Helen]

I'm not into to arguing with anyone.....I just state what 'I' believe ...I do not believe it is a prerequisite for salvation...

 

[larry2]

So then you do not see "water baptism" as necessary?? Because if you say you do see it as Jesus command then, there is no more "one baptism"- it becomes two. if you say you do not find it to be necessary then you outwardly disobey Jesus command TO be baptized, and His disciples DID baptize many in water. JMO ♥

Hi Sister Grace, I absolutely do not believe that water baptism saves us from hell as it were, but is “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) 1 Pet 3:21.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (What gift was this, and did they need to be saved to receive it?)
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive (you must be saved first), because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If water baptism was the absolute catalyst for our deliverance from the world, other scripture such as Rom 10:13 alone has no truth. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I too have been baptized in the Catholic Church in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and then repeated in a Bible Church later in Jesus’ name, and that because I was doing what was told to me. Was I any more saved? NO, but at the time I thought it was necessary.

Like with Sister ByGrace, I’ll not argue with some just for the sake of debate. Thanks for your reply and be blessed in Christ Jesus.

 

[Enoch111]

I do not believe it is a prerequisite for salvation...

No one said it was a prerequisite for salvation (other than the RCC and perhaps the COC).

But Christian baptism is a commandment of Christ, hence Peter commanded the first group of saved Gentiles to be baptized, just as he commanded the first group of Jews on the day of Pentecost. Anyone who makes light of this, or dismisses it as merely an *option*, is opposing Christ and the apostles. Jesus said "If you love me you will keep my commandments".

By the same token, if a new convert fails to be baptized, it becomes a stumbling block for growth as a Christian. It is an act of obedience, indeed to first act of obedience for a child of God.

 

[epostle]

1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. JOHN 1:31

It can be seen here that John's baptism was to prepare Israel to recognize the promised coming Messiah.

John's baptism was to identify Jesus as the Christ, The Son of God to Israel; to prepare Israel for the coming kingdom.

John's baptism is not for us, it was for Israel.

Israel is the elder brother of the Church, they are the same family.

John 1:32 – when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM - Scripture Catholic

 

[Nancy]

I'm not into to arguing with anyone.....I just state what 'I' believe ...I do not believe it is a prerequisite for salvation...

Neither do I Helen. Like I said before, I did it as a public proclamation of my love for and faith in Jesus and to confess Him wit many witnesses. I think it is symbolic.

 

[Doug]

There are different orders concerning baptism, and to be applied for different contexts, and dispensations.
One was for Israel according to John’s baptism, and that to make them ready to receive Jesus’ coming ministry.

John the Baptist
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Peter
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them (To Who? Israel), Repent (Think differently), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In other words, Israel you haven’t kept the law, and without Jesus there is no remission of sins.
What of water baptism for the remainder of humanity? Peter even follows this in 1 Pet 3:21? The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Even now much of the Church doesn’t understand the separation of the order of Jesus in Mar 16:15. And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized (what baptism?) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
by A.S. Copley
"One baptism." This cannot be baptism in water; for that is only a memorial, a symbolic baptism. Water baptism answers to circumcision under the Old Covenant, which was a "sign," "a seal" - Romans 4:11. If baptism in water were the "one baptism," then the baptism in the Spirit would be no baptism or it would have a secondary place only which is impossible. How unworthy of the dear Holy Spirit, to presume to assign to a symbol what belongs to one of the three Persons of the Godhead. The "one baptism" is unmistakably the baptism in the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist and Jesus both spoke of this baptism - Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5. This baptism occurred on the day of Pentecost. Study the following verse: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" - I Corinthians 12:13. In this citation, we read plainly of the first, of the second, and of the sixth "ones" - the "one Body," the "one Spirit," and the "one baptism." The mystical Body of Christ, called the Church, was sovereignly constituted on the day of Pentecost.”

Where was the gospel preached?
Col 1:23 . . . be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
What about Jesus telling the apostles in Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (When are nations going to be dealt with?), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
For this present time we were told in Col 3:17, And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Enough for now.

There are different orders concerning baptism, and to be applied for different contexts, and dispensations.
One was for Israel according to John’s baptism, and that to make them ready to receive Jesus’ coming ministry.

John the Baptist
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Peter
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them (To Who? Israel), Repent (Think differently), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In other words, Israel you haven’t kept the law, and without Jesus there is no remission of sins.
What of water baptism for the remainder of humanity? Peter even follows this in 1 Pet 3:21? The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Even now much of the Church doesn’t understand the separation of the order of Jesus in Mar 16:15. And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized (what baptism?) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
by A.S. Copley
"One baptism." This cannot be baptism in water; for that is only a memorial, a symbolic baptism. Water baptism answers to circumcision under the Old Covenant, which was a "sign," "a seal" - Romans 4:11. If baptism in water were the "one baptism," then the baptism in the Spirit would be no baptism or it would have a secondary place only which is impossible. How unworthy of the dear Holy Spirit, to presume to assign to a symbol what belongs to one of the three Persons of the Godhead. The "one baptism" is unmistakably the baptism in the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist and Jesus both spoke of this baptism - Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5. This baptism occurred on the day of Pentecost. Study the following verse: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" - I Corinthians 12:13. In this citation, we read plainly of the first, of the second, and of the sixth "ones" - the "one Body," the "one Spirit," and the "one baptism." The mystical Body of Christ, called the Church, was sovereignly constituted on the day of Pentecost.”

Where was the gospel preached?
Col 1:23 . . . be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
What about Jesus telling the apostles in Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (When are nations going to be dealt with?), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
For this present time we were told in Col 3:17, And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Enough for now.