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Featured "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Phoneman777, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. Plenty of "non-denom", "emergent church" fly-by-night wolves in sheep's clothing who are only there to exploit children and wallets and flee if the system begins to catch up to them. It's unfair to sully the sterling reputation of mainline, Bible-thumping Protestantism and its properly trained, ordained, dedicated faith leaders with those whose father is the devil.

    However, catholicism boasts to be "the one united universal church". Catholic faith leaders have no opportunity to declare themselves "called by God" on Sunday and then be molesting the children of their new church members by Wednesday, as in the case of many fake preachers in what is unfairly claimed to be "Christian" or "Protestant".
    Yes, as did the millions of Christians throughout the Christian world did since the time of Luther and before as well. And can you fault us? The papacy itself claims to be "anti-Christ".
    The people that "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus Christ". Catholicism claims to have changed God's commandments into their own commandments, and faith in the priesthood to impart salvation to us irrespective of any sacrifice of Christ is all that is necessary, and that Christ's primary use to us is for His merit of good deeds to lessen our time in purgatory.
     
  2. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Dead Bread, I don't know whats worse; you pretending there's no Google for anyone to discover the blasphemous, bigoted, outrageous statements of the papacy that I and others have posted here, or a priest pretending that he is "the creator of his Creator" and claiming to change a stale, crusty piece of bread and a cup of booze into "the body and blood of Christ" by uttering a few magic words.
     
  3. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    STILL showing up to a gunfight with a pea-shooter, I see.
    Look – if you can’t substantiate your idiotic claims – then just admit it and move on.

    It’s better than showing up with empty pockets every time . . .

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    How do you determine who are the "wolves in sheep's clothing" and "fake preachers"?

    Curious Mary
     
  5. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Active Member

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    And you fail to realize that FREE WILL is not found in Scriptures! Find me the verse that expressly states that man has a free will. It is impossible because our wills are enslaved to sin. The only kinds of people who have a problem with admitting this are those who are to high on arrogance and self righteousness to accept their own lowly condition. And I don't care what Greek word you try to vomit out there, I studied Greek, and still don't buy this. Epignosis has many different uses!!
    NAS Word Usage - Total: 20
    acknowledge* 1, knowledge 14, real knowledge 1, true knowledge

    Sometimes, Epignosis just means knowledge!! Not 100% of the time does epignosis mean full complete knowledge. Now that we've dealt with that, maybe we can move on.... probably not.

    I am not usually this blunt with people but you seem to be a pretty tough skinned person, I'm sure you don't mind.

    Also, I'd like to point out that no matter how you try and regurgitate the cud, it always comes out as works righteousness. If it is up to us to keep our hearts changed, then we are not saved by Christ's blood alone, as the Scriptures say, but rather a joint salvation; partly Christ's blood and partly man's ability to keep his blood effective. THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL AT ALL!!

     
  6. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhh – another Scriptural absolutist . . .

    Are the words “Free will” in Scripture? No - however, the TEACHING certainly is.
    Is the term “Trinity” in Scripture?
    NO – but the teaching is there.

    Is the term “Incarnation” in Scripture?
    NO – but the teaching is there.

    Gen. 2:16-17
    And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are FREE to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

    Gal. 5:13
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your FREEDOM to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

    Gal. 5:16-17
    So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do WHATEVER YOU WANT.

    1 Cor. 10:13
    No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are TEMPTED, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

    John 7:17
    Anyone who CHOOSES to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

    As for Epignosis – I gave you several definitions from PROTESTANT scholarship. If you have a problem with them – then take it up with your own . . .

    As for “works righteousness”WHO said it is by our own doing that our hearts remain changed.
    My heart is changed because of the Christ ALREADY did. HOWEVER, unless I cooperate with that grace – I cannot HOPE to be changed – or remain changed.

    God’s gift of salvation requires our RESPONSE . . .
     
  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    WRONG.

    Here are your fellow PROTESTANTS disagreeing with you.
    Take special note of the definition in RED . . .

    EPIGNOSIS
    Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary

    C2. Know, Known, Knowledge, Unknown [Noun] epignosis akin to epiginosko, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition," and is a strengthened form of gnosis, expressing a fuller or a full "knowledge," a greater participation by the "knower" in the object "known," thus more powerfully influencing him. It is not found in the Gospels and Acts. Paul uses it 15 times (16 if Heb 10:26 is included) out of the 20 occurrences; Peter 4 times, all in his 2nd Epistle. Contrast Rom. 1:28 (epignosis) with the simple verb in Rom 1:21. "In all the four Epistles of the first Roman captivity it is an element in the Apostle's opening prayer for his correspondents' well-being, Php 1:9; Eph 1:17; Col 1:9; Php 1:6" (Lightfoot).

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
    epignōsis
    1) precise and correct knowledge
    1a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

    Strong's #1922: epignosis (pronounced ep-ig'-no-sis)
    from 1921; recognition, i.e. full discernment, acknowledgement:--(ac-)knowledge(-ing, - ment).

    R. H. Strachan, "The Second Epistle General of Peter," The Expositor's Greek Testament, W. Robertson Nicoll, editor (Grand Rapids: Wm.B. Eerdmans, 1951), V, 127. ans 1: 9. Citing Chrysostom, Justin Martyr, and 1 Corinthians 13: 12, he concludes:
    “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger, more thorough knowledge ... Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge.”6

    John Macarthur (The Master’s Seminary Journal)
    Gnosis gives place to epignosis—faith to rational conviction— and we rest in the joyful and unshaken certainty that we possess a Bible written by the hands of man indeed, but also graven with the finger of God.

    The Doctrine of Epignosis (Wenstrom Ministries)
    A.
    The noun epignosis comes from the ginosko word group:
    1. Ginosko (ginwskw) (verb), “to know personally, intimately and experientially.”
    2. Gnosis (gnosi$) (noun), “knowledge that is the intelligent comprehension but is not personal and experiential.”
    3. Epignosis (epignosiv$) (noun), “intimate, personal, experiential knowledge.”

    D. Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

    E. He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

    M. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
    1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God

    2. CHRISTIAN FAITH

    N. Epignosis … in the Greek New Testament:
    2. Experiential knowledge (of God and Christ).
     
  8. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Active Member

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    The d
    ... thank you for validating my point for me. You choose to acknowledge only the one definition of the word, and insist that every single use of it clings to this definition. Using your logic, If I here someone say that a girl is their "flame", they must mean that this girl is literally a walking flame... because one definition of the word "flame" is a fire. Of course, others would try to explain to me the other definitions, but since I'm using your logic, I'm just going to pound the dictionary and tunnel vision on the definition that suits what I perceive is right... do you see the problem here?
     
  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    ????

    I can produce further documentation that speaks of the specific verses I presented. I just thought these would be enough for you.
    I don't think those will change your mind either.

    Spiritual pride is an ugly thing . . .[/QUOTE]
     
  10. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Active Member

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    ... says the one who believes in works righteousness
     
  11. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Not ME.
    I believe in what the Bible teaches (Matt. 7:21, James 2:14-26) - that TRUE Faith = Belief + Obedience (works).
    Belief alone doesn't save you - and neither do works alone.
     
  12. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Active Member

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    So, in essence, what you are saying is that Christ's work isn't enough without your works..... works righteousness.
     
  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Not at ALL.
    It is BECAUSE of Christ that I can do works that are pleasing to God - which HE prepared for me to do (Eph. 2:10).
     
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  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    MORE Protestant scholarship on Epignosis . . .

    Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

    Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

    He goes on to say on the same page, “ALL Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”
     
  15. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Active Member

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    But it is YOU doing them... adding to Christ's own work, correct? And these works take part in your salvation, yes?

    ...... works righteousness. Perhaps 3rd times the charm...
     
  16. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Still sticking your head in the sand and pretending that no one can Google the blasphemous heresies that the papacy claims about itself and Christ and exposes it as the Man of Sin that it is, huh?
     
  17. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 20:8 KJV
     
  18. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    They are not MY works - but works prepared FOR me to do by GOD.

    I don't take credit for them.
    I simply cooperate with His grace to perform them.
     
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  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Come back when you wanna have a grown-up debate - where you actually produce EVIDENCE for the things you claim.
    I'll go ahead and claim victory by default . . .
     
  20. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    I can't find Isaiah 20:8 in scripture
     
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