Justification the same as Sanctification?
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Thank you for your response!RANDOR said:BOTH and at the same time......as the angels in heaven are rejoicing......simplified
You're of a higher paygrade than I thought thus both at the same time, but is it a forensic secret judgment call from heaven or a public judgment? Agape those angels rejoicing part big time! A fact we can take to the bank and it'll clear.
Old Jack
me don't understand......secret judgment call ?? standing by for futher clarification....10...9....8....7....6...5...4...3...2...........shturt678 said:
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I think Paul indirectly answers this question. Both works of God, justification and sanctification, are simultaneous events.shturt678 said:
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Justification = Justification is the work of God whereby the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner, so the sinner is declared by God to be righteous under the Law.
Sanctification = Sanctification is the work of God whereby those who are justified are reckoned to be purified and dedicated to the service of God.
Thank you for your response again!RANDOR said:
Good, you're at my paygrade thus can talk straight accross, amen! Scriptures speak of two judgments, ie, one that is secret that occurs now duing one's earthly life thus upon the Return of Jesus, already determined which side one will be on - left or right. This issue is one of the most difficult issues in the N.T. dealing with the "elect," ie, "secret judgment part."
Because this issue can quickly cause divisions, will only say for now, go with a public judgment where the ministers publically gets the deceased into heaven so the economics stays in the black. Would only encourage you to eyeball the "doctrine of election" again for another thread at another time my brother. I was going to let the "secret" part go, but what the heck - blood and guts my brother - lol with you,
Old Jack, no pain, no gain
Nomad said:
Sorry Jack..........still don't understand the two judgments....in a twinkling of the eye....is usually how it happens to born again believers...all at once...you know it, you feel it......and you know Who did it....for He lets you know.....it was I.shturt678 said:
I'm curious though.........
God Bless ya Jack...................stay balanced
Thank you for your response again!RANDOR said:Sorry Jack..........still don't understand the two judgments....in a twinkling of the eye....is usually how it happens to born again believers...all at once...you know it, you feel it......and you know Who did it....for He lets you know.....it was I.
I'm curious though.........
God Bless ya Jack...................stay balanced
Soon as I pass on, I will awake one of two places due to a judgment from God either secretly or publically before the "twinkling of an eye."
Good job brother RANDOR.
Old Jack trying to develop his humor to be balanced on the tightrope of life.
Romans 8:28-30shturt678 said:
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Where's RANDOR when you need him?StanJ said:
Perfect my brother!
Old not so perfect Jack, still being "sanctified."
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
The OP posed a question regarding justification and sanctification. Where do you see the word "sanctification" anywhere in Romans 8:28-30???StanJ said:
Nomad, I'm not quite sure why you have such reading problems, but I answered the OP to his total satisfaction as he commented. Apparently you didn't see the "OR?" at the end of the OP. I quoted scripture. Simple, straightforward.Nomad said:
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Yes it's true that "washed" is in the middle voice, which probably indicates one who submits to baptism, whereas "justified" and "sanctified" are in the passive voice, which means that one receives the action of the verb apart from any action on their part. However, I don't think that the order of the verbs tells us anything regarding the order of salvation. For example, the Ethiopian eunuch was told that he may be baptized if he believes, not the other way around. I don't think that Paul intended to give us the "ordo salutis" in that verse. That wasn't his point.shturt678 said:
I'm afraid that the reading problem is all yours as clearly seen in other threads. I did in fact see the word "or" in the OP. However "or" is irrelevant seeing that a passage exists that contains both of the words that the OP was seeking. In other words, the OP wanted to know if "justification" and "sanctification" were simultaneous events. I presented a passage that clearly demonstrated that they were. Your passage, on the other hand, didn't even contain the word "santification." You seem to have a penchant for firing off proof texts that have very little to do with what you're trying to prove, while at the same time twisting passages that contradict your desired point of view. Very sad.StanJ said:
FHII
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It takes someone who is.... special.... To ask such a question. Why look for a difference when the Bible says, "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast".
Well, lets see... Am I saved; but not justified or sanctified? Am I saved and justified; But not sanctified? Am I sanctified and justified; but not saved? Am I saved and sanctifeid; but not justified? Or all three? Or none? Ah heck.... Give me a Pork chop and a beer.... I'll stick with by grace ye are saved! I'll let you folks argue the rest and I'll let God ignore your decision!
Well, lets see... Am I saved; but not justified or sanctified? Am I saved and justified; But not sanctified? Am I sanctified and justified; but not saved? Am I saved and sanctifeid; but not justified? Or all three? Or none? Ah heck.... Give me a Pork chop and a beer.... I'll stick with by grace ye are saved! I'll let you folks argue the rest and I'll let God ignore your decision!
Thank you for caring again!Nomad said:
Rom.8:30, "declared righteous....declared righteous" (A.V. "...justified...justified...") has always been my take off passage for the concept of "justification." "Righteous" is where I usually refer back to Rom.3:24 contextually where the passive occurs. "Justification again is that act of our Lord by which He, of pure grace, for the sake of the merits of Christ, pronounces a poor sinner, who truly believes in Christ, from guilt and declares him just."
This again is an excellent definition . The act is forensic and secret upon each one's passing, takes place in heaven the instant when the call kindles faith.
Old Jack that agapes that ol' Rom.8:30, and you folks.
Nomad said:
Thank you for your response sir!FHII said:
Only a head's up. Why I make such a fuss about the OP is due to Matt.7:22 only for openers. We can have faith that could move mountains yet be rejected construed with ICor.9:27 only for openers. BTW Eph.2:8, 9 is after v.5, "he quicked" namely making us alive with Christ, was mediated for us by water baptism thus there is quite a bit more to this my brother.
Also one was "justifed" even prior to Eph.2:5 at one's 'instant of faith.'
Old insignificant Jack scratching below the surface.
This kind of supercilious response indicating you know better than the OP does about his own post is what is sad.Nomad said:
Looks like there is no getting through that RT wall you have setup, so there's really nothing to say to you that you won't get vehement about. Sadly these kind of responses are typical of RT fanatics of your ilk. You think your answers are the only correct ones, regardless if all someone gives is a scripture. That type of condescension is also typical of those in RT who think only they know the Word of God.
When you have something to say about the Word and can properly exegete it, I may respond to you, but until then I'll not waste my time.
Justification takes place @ your Passover experience. The moment that you believe Jesus
is the Lamb that covered your sins by His Blood, your spirit has been justified and preserved
unto the coming of the Lord. By faith you have been sanctified and glorified in your spirit. An
embryo has been begotten inside of your heart, which is the new creation man that Paul spoke
about.
However, sanctification is when you have your Pentecostal experience. It is an ongoing
process that takes place through this journey called life. Where justification is a one time
experience, sanctification deals with your soul, mind, and emotions for the purpose of
your soul coming back into compliance with your spirit. Our souls have been exposed to all
the elements of the world and we aren't capable of knowing the Laws of the Kingdom. At
Pentecost, God separates us from the things that have us bound through the Holy Spirit and
fire.
Most Christians think I am talking about speaking in tongues, but I'm not talking about that,
although you may be given a pray language in that process. I am talking about receiving
spiritual eyes and ears to hear and see what the Spirit is saying to you. As we mature in this
process called sanctification, we learn that God wants us to become obedient unto His Word.
That is what sets us apart so God can use us in the Ages to come. It is what makes us an
overcomer that will qualify us to receive immortality first. We will become first fruits unto God.
Glorification is when you have your Tabernacles experience. It is what we are waiting for,
because as Passover and Pentecost has come historically, the feast of Tabernacles can only
be accessed through faith because it is a future historical event.
In other words, the redemption of our bodies ( Rom. 8:23 ) is in the future, so we must believe
that one day Jesus will give us this experience. At the moment, we are being preserved until we
receive our full salvation, which comes when we receive immortality at the great feast. 1st Thess.
5:23 says,
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely ; and may
your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
is the Lamb that covered your sins by His Blood, your spirit has been justified and preserved
unto the coming of the Lord. By faith you have been sanctified and glorified in your spirit. An
embryo has been begotten inside of your heart, which is the new creation man that Paul spoke
about.
However, sanctification is when you have your Pentecostal experience. It is an ongoing
process that takes place through this journey called life. Where justification is a one time
experience, sanctification deals with your soul, mind, and emotions for the purpose of
your soul coming back into compliance with your spirit. Our souls have been exposed to all
the elements of the world and we aren't capable of knowing the Laws of the Kingdom. At
Pentecost, God separates us from the things that have us bound through the Holy Spirit and
fire.
Most Christians think I am talking about speaking in tongues, but I'm not talking about that,
although you may be given a pray language in that process. I am talking about receiving
spiritual eyes and ears to hear and see what the Spirit is saying to you. As we mature in this
process called sanctification, we learn that God wants us to become obedient unto His Word.
That is what sets us apart so God can use us in the Ages to come. It is what makes us an
overcomer that will qualify us to receive immortality first. We will become first fruits unto God.
Glorification is when you have your Tabernacles experience. It is what we are waiting for,
because as Passover and Pentecost has come historically, the feast of Tabernacles can only
be accessed through faith because it is a future historical event.
In other words, the redemption of our bodies ( Rom. 8:23 ) is in the future, so we must believe
that one day Jesus will give us this experience. At the moment, we are being preserved until we
receive our full salvation, which comes when we receive immortality at the great feast. 1st Thess.
5:23 says,
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely ; and may
your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
Thank you for caring again, and not really wanting the last word, ie, only a head's up.
Justification (at one's instant of faith') is distinct from, and is also prior to one's sanctification which occurs at one's water baptism.
Old Jack
Justification (at one's instant of faith') is distinct from, and is also prior to one's sanctification which occurs at one's water baptism.
Old Jack
Ya, no, sorry Jack, Logabe had it right, it is when you are baptized with fire that you are sanctified, and THAT is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John's baptism was to proclaim the coming of the savior. After we receive Him, Jesus baptizes us with the fire of the Holy Spirit. Luke 3:16 NIVshturt678 said:
Thank you for your response!StanJ said:
Per IICor.6:11, I had always thought one is sanctified at one's water baptism after one's instant of faith - justified at one's instant of faith. If you could show me a discrepancy using this passage, I sure would appreciate it. I'm on the run right now, and will look at Lk.3:16 again when get back home, ie, am very familiar with Corinthians in the mean time
Old Jack's opinion.
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