More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

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Timtofly

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You do not seem to have a clue what redemption truly means and entails. How can you be redeemed if you were never a sinner? That is nonsensical.



Are you talking about? Billions in the millennium are deceived by Satan. You are living in a fantasy world.



1. So, according to you, turning your back on Jesus is not sin?
2. Embracing Satan and becoming a follower of him is not sin?
3. Mobilizing in Satan's army to destroy "the camp of the saints" is not sin?



Do you consider people turning their backs on Christ, rejecting His commands, embracing Satan and then attacking the people of God to be disobedience?
You don't seem to have a single clue about the Millennium. No wonder you jumped out of the pot into the fire.

Because the offspring of redeemed people without sin will be more redeemed people without sin. That is how sin is not passed down from generation to generation.

If Adam never disobeyed God, Paradise would be full of non sinners never redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Paradise is still full of non sinners because of the obedience of Jesus. But it would have saved a lot of trouble had Adam never disobeyed.

So those "billions" don't bring sin into the world because they are consumed by fire and won't have any offspring punished because they were about to disobey God.

You cannot pass on Adam's dead corruptible flesh of no one has Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
 

covenantee

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Israel is currently not a nation free of sin and enjoying everlasting righteousness.

You have hijacked the promise to Israel and applied it symbolically to yourself.

I am not talking about your symbolism. I have no argument with that.

You cannot accept the point that the time up in Revelation 10 is the 70 weeks. Because that is the time given by the prophet Daniel to be completed. Daniel was given 70 weeks that will be declared complete and ended at the 7th Trumpet. There will be no more mystery or prophecy left and the deal will be sealed. That cannot happen until the Prince to come, Jesus as King sets up His throne and removes sin from creation, and declares everlasting righteousness.

You may be enjoying your symbolism, but the guy down the street from you is not.
Those in Christ are a nation (1 Peter 2:9) whose sins are forgiven and ended, and who enjoy everlasting righteousness.

You have hijacked the promises to those in Christ and attempted to restrict them to an apostate antichrist nation.

You cannot accept that the 70 weeks were completed 2,000 years ago with the complete fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 in Christ's Sacrifice at Calvary.

Those in Christ are the recipients and beneficiaries of that fulfillment since Calvary.

That includes every guy down the street, and around the world, who is in Christ.
 
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WPM

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You don't seem to have a single clue about the Millennium. No wonder you jumped out of the pot into the fire.

Because the offspring of redeemed people without sin will be more redeemed people without sin. That is how sin is not passed down from generation to generation.

If Adam never disobeyed God, Paradise would be full of non sinners never redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Paradise is still full of non sinners because of the obedience of Jesus. But it would have saved a lot of trouble had Adam never disobeyed.

So those "billions" don't bring sin into the world because they are consumed by fire and won't have any offspring punished because they were about to disobey God.

You cannot pass on Adam's dead corruptible flesh of no one has Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

If Adam never disobeyed God he would never have needed to be redeemed. Only sinners need redeemed. Hello! You are all over the place in your theology.

1. So, according to you, turning your back on Jesus is not sin?
2. Embracing Satan and becoming a follower of him is not sin?
3. Mobilizing in Satan's army to destroy "the camp of the saints" is not sin?
 
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Timtofly

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Those in Christ are a nation (1 Peter 2:9) whose sins are forgiven and ended, and who enjoy everlasting righteousness.

You have hijacked the promises to those in Christ and attempted to restrict them to an apostate antichrist nation.

You cannot accept that the 70 weeks were completed 2,000 years ago with the complete fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 in Christ's Sacrifice at Calvary.

Those in Christ are the recipients and beneficiaries of that fulfillment since Calvary.

That includes every guy down the street, and around the world, who is in Christ.
You are not listening to Scripture.

I have done nothing but pointed out Scripture.

I said your symbolism is fine. Your application to reality is not. You have an idealistic approach to reality that does not line up with reality. All you have to claim now is we are living in the NHNE and the New Jerusalem is you yourself. This is your eternity we are currently living in, because time was up in 30AD. And that is when your eternity started.
 

Timtofly

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If Adam never disobeyed God he would never have needed to be redeemed. Only sinners need redeemed. Hello! You are all over the place in your theology.

1. So, according to you, turning your back on Jesus is not sin?
2. Embracing Satan and becoming a follower of him is not sin?
3. Mobilizing in Satan's army to destroy "the camp of the saints" is not sin?
No, Adam's disobedience allowed sin into the world. Listening to Eve was not sin. Disobedience to God is sin. But Adam was not a sinner until after he physically and spiritually died, immediately upon eating himself. Sin did not enter the world when Eve ate.
 

covenantee

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You are not listening to Scripture.

I have done nothing but pointed out Scripture.

I said your symbolism is fine. Your application to reality is not. You have an idealistic approach to reality that does not line up with reality. All you have to claim now is we are living in the NHNE and the New Jerusalem is you yourself. This is your eternity we are currently living in, because time was up in 30AD. And that is when your eternity started.
There is no greater reality than Calvary, and what Christ accomplished at Calvary.

Daniel 9:24.

That is my reality.
 

WPM

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No, Adam's disobedience allowed sin into the world. Listening to Eve was not sin. Disobedience to God is sin. But Adam was not a sinner until after he physically and spiritually died, immediately upon eating himself. Sin did not enter the world when Eve ate.

You didn't answer my questions again. You avoided them. You would make a good politician.

It seems like you are redefining sin to suit your theology. What is Christ's command and demand in your future millennium?
 

Timtofly

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There is no greater reality than Calvary, and what Christ accomplished at Calvary.

Daniel 9:24.

That is my reality.
That is not what Daniel 9:24-27 declares. It says Messiah would be cut off, but not for Himself. The Prince to come part would complete the 70th week.
 

Timtofly

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You didn't answer my questions again. You avoided them. You would make a good politician.

It seems like you are redefining sin to suit your theology. What is Christ's command and demand in your future millennium?
Do you not understand that sin stops prior to the Millennium?

Why do you foist sin into the Millennium with your silly questions that don't even pertain to the Millennium? After the Millennium, when they are decieved may be a whole different ball park. Those people are consumed by fire instead of becoming sinners living for eternity in their disobedience.

You have not posted the rules of the Millennium they broke to even be disobedient and allow sin into the world.

Is there a law that states: thou shalt not be deceieved by Satan?

Is there a law that states: thou shalt not travel more than 100 miles?

Is there a law that states: thou shalt not gather in groups over 100?

Give me the Scriptures that declare they disobeyed a rule under the iron rod reign of Jesus after the Millennium is over.
 

covenantee

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That is not what Daniel 9:24-27 declares. It says Messiah would be cut off, but not for Himself. The Prince to come part would complete the 70th week.
Messiah, the Prince who came, was cut off for the world in the 70th week at Calvary.

Accomplishing Daniel 9:24.
 

WPM

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Do you not understand that sin stops prior to the Millennium?

Why do you foist sin into the Millennium with your silly questions that don't even pertain to the Millennium? After the Millennium, when they are decieved may be a whole different ball park. Those people are consumed by fire instead of becoming sinners living for eternity in their disobedience.

You have not posted the rules of the Millennium they broke to even be disobedient and allow sin into the world.

Is there a law that states: thou shalt not be deceieved by Satan?

Is there a law that states: thou shalt not travel more than 100 miles?

Is there a law that states: thou shalt not gather in groups over 100?

Give me the Scriptures that declare they disobeyed a rule under the iron rod reign of Jesus after the Millennium is over.

Revelation 20 locates sin and sinners in the millennium. They did not just arrive at the end of the millennium. They were there during the millennium. Hello! There are billions of wicked turn their backs on Christ, reject His commands, embrace Satan, and then attack the people of God. Your theology is stopping you see the obvious.

You then have God pouring His wrath upon the righteous (your supposed sinless sinners). It is ridiculous. It is a sham.

Deception is classic evidence of sin. Deception comes from being beguiled by a lie. Most often it comes from embracing the lie of the devil. It is when we are foolish enough to embrace dishonesty and rebellion over the truth of God that we are deceived. This is ultimate foolishness. This is flagrant sin. This is what happens at the end in Revelation 20 in Satan’s little season. Billions of wicked that overrun the millennium embrace the lie of Satan at the end and reject Christ, follow Satan and turn against the people of God.
 
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Timtofly

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Messiah, the Prince who came, was cut off for the world in the 70th week at Calvary.

Accomplishing Daniel 9:24.
Show from Revelation where the Prince to come part happens.

Being cut off is not synonymous with fulfilled and completed.
 

covenantee

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Show from Revelation where the Prince to come part happens.
He had already come, decades before John wrote.

Revelation 1
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Now show from Revelation where your "Prince to come part happens."
Being cut off is not synonymous with fulfilled and completed.
Isaiah 53
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Did Messiah's "cut off" death fulfill Isaiah 53:8-10?
 
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Timtofly

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Revelation 20 locates sin and sinners in the millennium. They did not just arrive at the end of the millennium. They were there during the millennium. Hello! There are billions of wicked turn their backs on Christ, reject His commands, embrace Satan, and then attack the people of God. Your theology is stopping you see the obvious.

You then have God pouring His wrath upon the righteous (your supposed sinless sinners). It is ridiculous. It is a sham.

Deception is classic evidence of sin. Deception comes from being beguiled by a lie. Most often it comes from embracing the lie of the devil. It is when we are foolish enough to embrace dishonesty and rebellion over the truth of God that we are deceived. This is ultimate foolishness. This is flagrant sin. This is what happens at the end in Revelation 20 in Satan’s little season. Billions of wicked that overrun the millennium embrace the lie of Satan at the end and reject Christ, follow Satan and turn against the people of God.
No, Revelation 20 does not locate sin and sinners in the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

They are all killed at Armageddon. There are no humans left in Adam's dead corruptible flesh at the start of the Millennium.

You would have to conclude that Adam's flesh continues on into eternity, and contradict your own erroneous teachings. Sinners are mentioned in Isaiah 65 which you teach is the age to come, ie your eternity. The word sinner is not found once in Revelation 20. You foist that onto the text to prop up and defend you erroneous and Scripture contradicting eschatology. You wave sin away with general sweeping symbolism from Isaiah 65. So wipe it away from Revelation 20 as you did for Isaiah 65, as Isaiah 65 is the same time period as Revelation 20.

I said those in Revelation 20 were sinners after they were consumed by fire, and existing in the LOF. They were not born into sin nor sinners at birth. They were deceived by Satan and then physically dead sinners. That is how disobedience works. They are not a sinner until after they disobey God. Adam and Eve were dead sinners after Adam disobeyed God, not prior to Adam's disobedience.

Do we sin because we are born sinners, or because we consistently disobey God? Are you saying sinning is genetic and passed down from generation to generation?

What is passed down is the state of death. No one becomes mortal after their first act of disobedience. They are born in Adam's mortal image. Has nothing to do with being a sinner nor sinning. That is when an individual disobeys God.

You have yet to point out the laws of the Millennium. Current laws don't count. You claim the OT law is not re-instated, so the OT laws don't count. You claimed Eve was a sinner because she was deceived. That is not possible. It was deception that made her eat and give a bite to Adam. Eve did not disobey God. Adam did. Paul said Adam brought sin into the world, not Eve. Being decieved is not sin. Disobedience to God is sin. Marching across the earth is not sin. Unless you provide the Scripture that claims marching across the earth in large numbers is against the law.

You are making stuff up in your imagination, and calling it sin. If I did that, you would call that nonsense. So call your imagined excuses why there cannot be a sin free Millennium just your own nonsense.
 

Timtofly

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He had already come, decades before John wrote.

Revelation 1
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Now show from Revelation where your "Prince to come part happens."

Isaiah 53
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Did Messiah's "cut off" death fulfill Isaiah 53:8-10?
We are not talking about whether cut off was fulfilled.

Your verse calls Jesus Prince. Jesus was Prince prior to creation.

Your verse does not say Jesus came as prince.

Revelation 6:12-17
 

covenantee

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We are not talking about whether cut off was fulfilled.
What are you talking about?
Your verse calls Jesus Prince. Jesus was Prince prior to creation.
Certainly.
Your verse does not say Jesus came as prince.
He was a Prince prior to creation, as you stated.

He did not cease to be a Prince when He came.
Revelation 6:12-17
Provide a verbatim quote of the verse containing the word "prince" in that passage.
 

WPM

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No, Revelation 20 does not locate sin and sinners in the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

They are all killed at Armageddon. There are no humans left in Adam's dead corruptible flesh at the start of the Millennium.

You would have to conclude that Adam's flesh continues on into eternity, and contradict your own erroneous teachings. Sinners are mentioned in Isaiah 65 which you teach is the age to come, ie your eternity. The word sinner is not found once in Revelation 20. You foist that onto the text to prop up and defend you erroneous and Scripture contradicting eschatology. You wave sin away with general sweeping symbolism from Isaiah 65. So wipe it away from Revelation 20 as you did for Isaiah 65, as Isaiah 65 is the same time period as Revelation 20.

I said those in Revelation 20 were sinners after they were consumed by fire, and existing in the LOF. They were not born into sin nor sinners at birth. They were deceived by Satan and then physically dead sinners. That is how disobedience works. They are not a sinner until after they disobey God. Adam and Eve were dead sinners after Adam disobeyed God, not prior to Adam's disobedience.

Do we sin because we are born sinners, or because we consistently disobey God? Are you saying sinning is genetic and passed down from generation to generation?

What is passed down is the state of death. No one becomes mortal after their first act of disobedience. They are born in Adam's mortal image. Has nothing to do with being a sinner nor sinning. That is when an individual disobeys God.

You have yet to point out the laws of the Millennium. Current laws don't count. You claim the OT law is not re-instated, so the OT laws don't count. You claimed Eve was a sinner because she was deceived. That is not possible. It was deception that made her eat and give a bite to Adam. Eve did not disobey God. Adam did. Paul said Adam brought sin into the world, not Eve. Being decieved is not sin. Disobedience to God is sin. Marching across the earth is not sin. Unless you provide the Scripture that claims marching across the earth in large numbers is against the law.

You are making stuff up in your imagination, and calling it sin. If I did that, you would call that nonsense. So call your imagined excuses why there cannot be a sin free Millennium just your own nonsense.

Imaginations? That is what it is to think billions of wicked turning their backs on Christ, rejecting His commands, embracing Satan, and then attacking the people of God is not sin and sinners. That is delusionary.

Isaiah 65?

The inclusion of the phrase “Accursed an hundred years old sinner” is simply a solemn reminder to the reader that the fate of the unbeliever is starkly different to that being depicted for the believer on the new earth. In the midst of his joy at the revelation of the new earth the Old Testament prophet compares the bliss, blessing and perfection of the glorified new earth and the horror of the fate of the wicked in hell. The solemn thought is: the eternal horror and hopelessness that will be the lot of the wicked is not just for a short time, it is forever. There is no sense that the wicked are on the new earth here. Isaiah is not describing more of the same as Premil teaches. The new earth is not a repeat or rehash of this corruptible age. This must be forced into the text.

The writer is simply making a comparison (in the midst of his joy at the thought of the new earth) between the bliss and perfection of the glorified new earth and the horror of the fate of the wicked in the lake of fire. There is no sense that the wicked are on the earth here.

The sinner will indeed be accursed in eternity. Throughout Scripture God concentrates on the elect, and often attaches a postscript in regard to the wicked. That is all we are looking at in the phrase: “sinner old hundred years is cursed.” Their condition is eternally sealed and irreversible - it is hopeless.

There is no record of death on the new earth for the elect in the original Hebrew; only for the wicked who are experiencing eternal wrath in the Lake of Fire. Here is a notable difference between Amil and Premil, Amils believe the wicked are all judged when Jesus comes and banished into a lost eternity, Premil on the other hand (amazingly) rewards the wicked at the end (especially those who fight against Jerusalem at the end) by allowing them to inherit the new earth. The gorge between these two views couldn't be further.

The result of the fall and the damage of the curse continue on, however, not on the new heavens and new earth. The wicked have their own eternal abode – the Lake of Fire. The wicked will remain in the awful ongoing reality of the curse for time and for eternity. This is too terrible to even contemplate. This text is definitely not saying there will be mortal sinners on the new earth after the coming of Christ, as some argue. It is just saying sinners will remain accursed (even a hundred years after the appearing of the new heavens and earth). It could easily have said a thousand years or a million years. In short: They will remain accursed for all eternity.

So what is the meaning of Isaiah 65:20? It is simply presented in such a way as to indicate that there will be no ageing or death during the eternal state. It cannot in any way indicate that righteous children will die in eternity – a fact that few would deny. Such an absurd notion would obviously disregard plain truth, and contradict repeated Scripture to the contrary. This assumption is reinforced by the introductory language of same passage in question, which says, “there shall be no more thence an infant of days.” This seems to be worded in such a way as to in some way explain the great mystery of eternity. It appears to be contrasting what we on earth would deem long-life to what in eternity would be considered mere infancy. Scripture tells us, death is totally and finally destroyed at the Second coming for the believer.

As we have already stated, we can be assured Scripture never in any place contradicts itself. Therefore, it is either our understanding that is limited or the original Hebrew that is imperfect. We know it can’t be the latter. Common-sense alone tells us there must either be infants after Christ’s coming or else no infants. There are plainly no in-betweens. Such an absurd notion is impossible. The language of Isaiah 65:20 seems to be used in order to impress the idea that there will be no more growing old and no dying during this time. Anyway, if a natural child was to literally live to be a hundred years old then it would no longer be a child. So, it seems to be a hyperbole statement used to underscore the spiritual truth that there will be no more death or sorrow.
 

Keraz

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So what is the meaning of Isaiah 65:20?
It means that during the Millennium, people will still die. They will marry and have children and there will be animals, etc.
Isaiah 65:18-25 is a Prophetic description of the thousand years that Jesus will rule the physical world.

Isaiah 65:17 refers to Eternity: stated as an assurance of that final reality.

Your 'hyperbole stakemen', above is complete nonsense and make a mockery of Bible Prophecy.
 

WPM

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It means that during the Millennium, people will still die. They will marry and have children and there will be animals, etc.
Isaiah 65:18-25 is a Prophetic description of the thousand years that Jesus will rule the physical world.

Isaiah 65:17 refers to Eternity: stated as an assurance of that final reality.

Your 'hyperbole stakemen', above is complete nonsense and make a mockery of Bible Prophecy.

Your hermeneutics are totally messed up. Context and wording mean little to you. Whatever facilitates your beliefs is what is used to achieve a pre-determined end. Your tactics are plagued by incredible bias. There is zero objectivity in your writing on end-times.

Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate. Whilst there are challenging parts to this passage, we can be sure of the fact that the detail described will be fulfilled in the “new heavens and a new earth.” In fact, the wording is so explicit in relation to the time-period that it removes any ambiguity or uncertainty for the reader on that front. This is the first absolute we can establish with this reading.

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter means letting New Testament Scripture locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” Various passages show the removal of the old corrupt heavens and earth at the coming of Christ and their replacement with the new perfect heavens and earth. Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-37: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.”

Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

This is beyond dispute. Any other understanding is contradicting Scripture. Notwithstanding, this doesn’t stop some Bible students forcing this passage into a supposed future millennium in between this current age and the new heavens and a new earth in the age to come. This can only occur if one is to ignore the setting clearly outlined by the Holy Ghost elsewhere in Holy Writ.

The next absolute we know from interpreting Scripture with Scripture is that there is no sin or corruption in the new heavens or on the new earth. There is therefore no death or decay, sickness or rebellion. It is a perfect holy environment that is free of iniquity. 2 Peter 3:13 confirms: we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” The Bible makes clear that this current earth is purged at the Second Coming of all the repercussions of the fall and perfected for His glory.
 

Keraz

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This is beyond dispute. Any other understanding is contradicting Scripture.
I dispute the idea Isaiah 65:18-25, refers to Eternity. That Prophecy simply cannot belong in the spiritual realm.

It is the AMill view which contradicts scripture. You fail to take note of how most of Prophecy is mixed and is distributed throughout the Bible. Isaiah 28:13