My theory about the "Word" in John 1:1

[Heyzeus]

So because you do not accept scholars understanding and accept the fact that the term angel was not known by Job (BTW sons of God in the OT occurs only 3X), you have decided to create an entire scenario based on unknowns , assumptions and guesses about what you sdon't know? do you really think that is authoritative????

I do accept scholars understanding. "Son's of God appears more than 3 times" but what difference does it make how many times it appears ?

Modern Scholars know what was meant by "Sons of God" We know the Israelite's believed in a Divine Pantheon - not just through history - archaeology and other "external sources" .. but from the Bible.

"In the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) translation of Deut 32:8–9 we find evidence of Yahweh being a son of El,"

Deut 32:8-9 “When the Most High (El -Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the sons of the divine: For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance

Deut 32:43
O heavens, rejoice with Him, Bow to him all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with his people and let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him
For He’ll avenge the blood of His Son’s, Be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
Requite those who reject Him, and the Lord will Cleanse his peoples land.

Job 1 "One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.7“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan"

You mentioned modern scholarship. Modern scholarship states that the God of Abraham was "El" El Shaddai - God of the Mountain - The Father - Creator .. and so on .. detailed further here https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=studiaantiqua or you can just look it up in the Encyclopedia Britannica Abraham | Facts & Significance

We know that the ancient Israelite's believed in a "Divine Pantheon" - they were not however Polytheistic The believed in the existence of other Gods but only worshiped one .. YHWH.

Now to the text - what do we learn ?

1) YHWH is a son of El - "the most high"
2) YHWH was apportioned the people of Israel - the other "Sons of God" got other peoples.
3) These other divinities visit with God from time to time .. and converse with God .. and they are clearly not Angels .. as Deut 32:34 lists both Angels and the Son's of God.
4) Satan is not an Angel .. He is Jesus's brother from another Mother .. and as per the rest of Job .. Satan does not act outside of God's will.
5) The relationship between Satan and God is depicted in Job as a Father/Son relationship.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do accept scholars understanding. "Son's of God appears more than 3 times" but what difference does it make how many times it appears ?

Modern Scholars know what was meant by "Sons of God" We know the Israelite's believed in a Divine Pantheon - not just through history - archaeology and other "external sources" .. but from the Bible.

"In the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) translation of Deut 32:8–9 we find evidence of Yahweh being a son of El,"

Deut 32:8-9 “When the Most High (El -Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the sons of the divine: For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance

Deut 32:43
O heavens, rejoice with Him, Bow to him all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with his people and let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him
For He’ll avenge the blood of His Son’s, Be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
Requite those who reject Him, and the Lord will Cleanse his peoples land.

Job 1 "One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.7“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan"

You mentioned modern scholarship. Modern scholarship states that the God of Abraham was "El" El Shaddai - God of the Mountain - The Father - Creator .. and so on .. detailed further here https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=studiaantiqua or you can just look it up in the Encyclopedia Britannica Abraham | Facts & Significance

We know that the ancient Israelite's believed in a "Divine Pantheon" - they were not however Polytheistic The believed in the existence of other Gods but only worshiped one .. YHWH.

Now to the text - what do we learn ?

1) YHWH is a son of El - "the most high"
2) YHWH was apportioned the people of Israel - the other "Sons of God" got other peoples.
3) These other divinities visit with God from time to time .. and converse with God .. and they are clearly not Angels .. as Deut 32:34 lists both Angels and the Son's of God.
4) Satan is not an Angel .. He is Jesus's brother from another Mother .. and as per the rest of Job .. Satan does not act outside of God's will.
5) The relationship between Satan and God is depicted in Job as a Father/Son relationship.

Are you Mormon?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do accept scholars understanding. "Son's of God appears more than 3 times" but what difference does it make how many times it appears ?

Modern Scholars know what was meant by "Sons of God" We know the Israelite's believed in a Divine Pantheon - not just through history - archaeology and other "external sources" .. but from the Bible.

"In the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) translation of Deut 32:8–9 we find evidence of Yahweh being a son of El,"

Deut 32:8-9 “When the Most High (El -Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the sons of the divine: For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance

Deut 32:43
O heavens, rejoice with Him, Bow to him all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with his people and let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him
For He’ll avenge the blood of His Son’s, Be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
Requite those who reject Him, and the Lord will Cleanse his peoples land.

Job 1 "One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.7“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan"

You mentioned modern scholarship. Modern scholarship states that the God of Abraham was "El" El Shaddai - God of the Mountain - The Father - Creator .. and so on .. detailed further here https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=studiaantiqua or you can just look it up in the Encyclopedia Britannica Abraham | Facts & Significance

We know that the ancient Israelite's believed in a "Divine Pantheon" - they were not however Polytheistic The believed in the existence of other Gods but only worshiped one .. YHWH.

Now to the text - what do we learn ?

1) YHWH is a son of El - "the most high"
2) YHWH was apportioned the people of Israel - the other "Sons of God" got other peoples.
3) These other divinities visit with God from time to time .. and converse with God .. and they are clearly not Angels .. as Deut 32:34 lists both Angels and the Son's of God.
4) Satan is not an Angel .. He is Jesus's brother from another Mother .. and as per the rest of Job .. Satan does not act outside of God's will.
5) The relationship between Satan and God is depicted in Job as a Father/Son relationship.

YOu are using a paraphrase to quote these verses and not a translation. Not one Hebrew manuscript show it as sons of the divne but children of Israel! What paraphrase are you using in this?

Satan is not an angel- He is a cherub the highest order of spiritual being! Show women prior to creation in heaven.

 

[justbyfaith]

So you agree with the standard Trinity Doctrine " There are three persons within the Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons have equal status and are equally divine"

Yes/No/Other

I believe that there are three Persons; but that they are also one Person.

Did you read the posts in the thread that I sent you to?

 

[justbyfaith]

Just because Jesus was the only "Son of God" - Begotten = Born of a Human .. does not mean there are not other Gods.

However, such passages as Deuteronomy 6:4 and James 2:19 do mean to tell us that there is only one God.

 

[Heyzeus]

I believe that there are three Persons; but that they are also one Person.

Did you read the posts in the thread that I sent you to?

Sorry but I have a ton of posts to respond to .. and your thread is not going to change the fact that at least two of the 3 "Persons" in the Trinity are not people.

3 hypostasis is not "3 people" in the modern Trinity Doctrine .. this is a rancid mistranslation and not what the council of Nicea stated .. nor the one that came after.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sorry but I have a ton of posts to respond to .. and your thread is not going to change the fact that at least two of the 3 "Persons" in the Trinity are not people.

3 hypostasis is not "3 people" in the modern Trinity Doctrine .. this is a rancid mistranslation and not what the council of Nicea stated .. nor the one that came after.

Take your time to get there if you need to...but get there.

 

[Heyzeus]

Take your time to get there if you need to...but get there.

sure .. but repost por favor.

 

[justbyfaith]

sure .. but repost por favor.

True Trinity.

 

[Heyzeus]

Thanks .. I only looked at the passages from Matt/Mark/Luke aka "Synoptics" all of which were "anti" Trinity. If one wants to claim there is a Trinity in other scriptures .. they have to refute the contradiction in the Synoptics in my books.

But lets look to the OT for some guidance on "The Father" - perhaps this will help resolve some things.


"In the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) translation ( and the LXX translation) of Deut 32:8–9 we find evidence of Yahweh being a son of El,"

Deut 32:8-9 “When the Most High (El -Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the sons of the divine: For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance

Deut 32:43
O heavens, rejoice with Him, Bow to him all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with his people and let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him
For He’ll avenge the blood of His Son’s, Be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
Requite those who reject Him, and the Lord will Cleanse his peoples land.

Job 1 "One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.7“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan"

1) YHWH is a son of El - "the most high"
2) YHWH was apportioned the people of Israel - the other "Sons of God" got other peoples.
3) Note the distinction between Angels and "Sons of God" in Deut 32:43 !
4) These other divinities visit with God from time to time .. and converse with God .. and they are clearly not Angels .. as Deut 32:34 lists both Angels and the Son's of God.
5) Satan is not an Angel .. He is also a "Son of God" .. and as per the rest of Job .. Satan does not act outside of God's will.
6) The relationship between Satan and God is depicted in Job as a Father/Son relationship.

Problem Solved .. We have one Almighty God .. who descended upon a man - at his baptism - and made him divine .. or at his birth if we Go with Matt .. or incarnate if we go with John .. hanging out with God and the rest of his numerous brothers and sisters ... just yet not chosen to be the "Son of Man" - Satan was apparently having all the fun .. but acting only within the will of the Father.

That's what the Bible tells us - or should I say - That is what the older Bibles tell us .. the good stuff about other divinities was mostly wiped clean during 700-900AD during the writing of the Masoretic Text... See page 7 and make sure to read what is written underneath. http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DT32BibSac.pdf

 

[justbyfaith]

Problem Solved .. We have one Almighty God .. who descended upon a man - at his baptism - and made him divine ..

Except that that is a heresy called adoptionism.

 

[Heyzeus]

Except that that is a heresy called adoptionism.

Who cares if "adoptionism" is a heresy ... so was the Trinity for roughly 250 years after Christs death ..

It is not my fault that the Jesus of Mark puts forth an "adoptionist" perspective. It is what it is. I don't think the Gospel of Mark is Heresy .. quite the contrary.

 

[justbyfaith]

Who cares if "adoptionism" is a heresy ... so was the Trinity for roughly 250 years after Christs death ..

It is not my fault that the Jesus of Mark puts forth an "adoptionist" perspective. It is what it is. I don't think the Gospel of Mark is Heresy .. quite the contrary.

But apparently you think that the gospel of John is heresy...which shews forth clearly in the first chapter that Jesus was God before He was even born as a Man/incarnated.

 

[Heyzeus]

But apparently you think that the gospel of John is heresy...which shews forth clearly in the first chapter that Jesus was God before He was even born as a Man/incarnated.

This is a good question/distinction you have unveiled .. just posted to someone in another thread what my true heresy is .. and there is a name for it .. just none of you have guessed correctly yet .. interestingly I mention the name in the last post I just wrote.. so I am going to direct you to that post .. and you want to read what I was responding to and the discussion because it is quite good .. and Charismatic gal gives an interesting perspective "Story" that I liked .. and then of course added to and clarified .. but very specifically from a doctrinal perspective.

 

[Heyzeus]

But apparently you think that the gospel of John is heresy...which shews forth clearly in the first chapter that Jesus was God before He was even born as a Man/incarnated.

. Post 194 " That's a nice story - just as long as we know that one is separate from the other .. and one subordinate to the other. Its funny how so many on here have been trying to guess at this doctrine .. not not yet got it .. you have Big Chief .. you have Little Chief .. and do not confuse one - with the other ... yet they are one in spirit."

All the fulness of Deity dwells in Him Bodily !

 

[justbyfaith]

. Post 194 " That's a nice story - just as long as we know that one is separate from the other .

They are not separate but distinct....even according to the creeds.

 

[Waiting on him]

John 1:12-13 KJV
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[reformed1689]

I think that the Word in John 1:1 is the speech of God, which means that God created the world by speaking. If you look at Genesis 1 you will see that every time before God created something it says "and God spoke". Also in Psalm 33:6 it is written "By the word of the Lord the heavens were created,for he spoke and it was". If this theory is true, if the Word is the spoken word of God, then the "Word" is the expression of the spirit that expresses the thoughts of a person. This then means that the Word of God in John 1:1 is actually God the father himself. The Word is, so to speak, the spirit of a person. It is written that the Holy Spirit came to Mary, and then the Son of God was begotten, the Holy Spirit is accordingly the Word who became flesh, God himself became flesh, his spirit manifested in the flesh.
So there was no "Son of God" before the Incarnation, and so no Trinity either.

What's your opinion on that?

My opinion is that you have to take John 1:1 out of context to arrive at that because later in the chapter it explains clearly the Word is Christ.

 

[Heyzeus]

They are not separate but distinct....even according to the creeds.

Yes .. distinct Substances ... yet the same at the same time. and now you have finally arrived at the Trinity Contradiction .. that everyone admits is a contradiction .. a direct one. "Beyond Your Ability to Comprehend" - in a fallacious call to ignorance follows.

The other way to look at it - and this is wayyyy discussed in theological teachings and circles .. are the various ways to conceive / "Make sense Of" the Trinity doctrine as is..

but first we had to understand what it was .. which you now do .. 3 distinct / different/ somehow not the same substances - but at the same time Homoousious - "Of the same Substance" One Substance With the Father .. from whom all things are made .. "Jesus IS God" for the first time in doctrine with this statement..

In Greek Philosophy/Religious thought - there were 2 kinds of substances .. that which God was Made of .. and that which everything else was made of - Trees humans planets .. "the ether" everything else was made of a different substance.

So either you are one substance .. or the other. When Constantine inserted the term "Homoousios" he was saying that Jesus was of the same substance .. as Big Chief "The Father" .. it was over that word that Eusebius was exiled for refusing to sign off .. This was over the top. To many of the Bishops in attendance this was heresy .. and/or "near heresy" because unless one knows the complications of the time with respect to doctrine ... Lots were not happy .. hence it taking another 500 years of persecution of other Christians .. for this doctrine to prevail. What followed was not a pretty time in history .. the "Thousand Years of Horror"

You like prophecy ? I bet you do .. The Arians were Sitting on the Throne in Rome until the last Lombard round 770 .. but the last generations were only "semi arian" ... the one's before being full on .. you also had the Eastern orthodox Church holding onto non trinitarian beliefs very late in the game ..and these two never got along well .. splitting completely round 1000 or so.

so 3 distinct "insert any adjective you like that means "Not the Same" Substances ... NOT Persons ..and this is admitted a bad translation immediately by any clergy that has proper training ... it is an intentional deflection and obfuscation of the truth .. sorry .. but if you want to play on my team .. sometimes the truth hurts .. and ya got to take a few bumps..

and if your foundation can not take a few bumps .. I suggest you check scripture .. the good stuff .. and not all this Pauline stuff you been trying to feed me.. incessantly .. cause your foundation needs improvement.

but if you stay the course .. I promise there is a light at the end of the Tunnel ... ...
but

 

[justbyfaith]

You are not going to be able to get me to reject Pauline scripture as uninspired, sorry.