New But Not Improved
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Crucified only means nullified from the old man's damnation and dominion, but not from his presence and temptings! If you're old man was gone you wouldn't be sinning at all, which is not the case.
Paul in Ro 7:14-25 just shows that he still sins, even though he is a Christian, but he doesn't want to sin. Nobody can say they have no sin or doesn't sin.
Romans 7:21-25 YLT
21) I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present,
22) for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
23) and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that is in my members.
24) A wretched man I am ! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25) I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.
Who then is this "inner man" who is not subject to the law of sin that pertains to the body (in my members)?
You are basically saying this is an unregenerate man who somehow has an inner man that is not under the law of sin.
But that inner man can only have come by rebirth in Christ.
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure which verses you are referring to. Look at Romans 7:5.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
That is referring to the 'past.' Romans 8 is now. But Paul was referring back to the past when he describes what it was like in Romans 7:14-25.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? I don't have any desire to sin. I actually felt my old man of sin leave my body back in 1977. I felt light as a feather. That is what the Spirit does when you are filled with the Holy Spirit. We are no longer IN THE FLESH.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Verse 25 is the culmination of 7:14-23 (it still has the "flesh")
Romans 8:9 we are NOT IN THE FLESH
This is how Paul could write,
Romans 7:20-25 YLT
20) And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.
21) I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present,
22) for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
23) and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that is in my members.
24) A wretched man I am ! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25) I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.
"I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God", this is not said by a man who is not reborn. While at the same time, "and with the flesh, the law of sin". The spirit is reborn, new, righteous, holy, the flesh remains Adamic, corrupted by sin, with corrupt lusts.
In trusting in Christ we overcome those lusts. Sometimes God gives us that overcoming as an immediate gift. Sometimes God trains us in trusting Him as we learn to endure through those times of testings. It seems to me each of us show both kinds of God's work in us.
"The flesh" refers to the Adamic person, the old man, the one we were before we were born again. This is the person born from our human parents, and our minds are corrupted to sin because we've received that from our parents, who received it from theirs.
We are not in flesh, but in spirit, if the Spirit of God dwell in you. That is, we do not derive our life from the fact that we live in flesh bodies, we derive our life from the fact that the Spirit of God lives in us. Now, being alive in the Spirit, if you take away the body, that doesn't change that we are alive in the Spirit.
Romans 8:5-11 YLT
5) For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
6) for the mind of the flesh is death, and the mind of the Spirit—life and peace;
7) because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
8) for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
9) And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ—this one is not His;
10) and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
11) and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.
Throughout this passage God contrasts the flesh and the spirit, and is, as in other passages, equating flesh and body. The body is dead in sin.
He speaks the same way here,
Romans 6:6 YLT
6) this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
Romans 6:9-12 YLT
9) knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;
10) for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God;
11) so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not then the sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires;
And so Paul wrote, "In me . . . that is, in my flesh", why the distinction? In my flesh nothing good lives. And he goes on the describe this very thing, that we've been separated from our corrupted body of flesh, and being joined to Christ, being immersed into Him, joined by the Holy Spirit to God Himself. While still remaining in these bodies, though God will fix that also.
Philippians 3:20-21 YLT
20) For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await—the Lord Jesus Christ—
21) who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
When Paul uses the word, "flesh" he is not talking about our body. He is talking about our nature. Our nature, the spirit and soul, is what is reborn now to be like the divine nature of God, 2 Peter 1:4. That was the old man that died.
Our body must yet die physically, in order to be reborn spiritually upon our resurrection.
I know many people get confused by Paul's writing. And John's too. (1 John 1:8 is before Christ, just as Romans 7:14-25 is before Christ that can only be seen by the whole context) That is why I always stress 'context.'
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I simply urge you to read and understand the words God puts in His Word, and let them speak. Yes, I agree, many people are confused by these things, but I believe that if you simplify how you read it that confusion goes away.
Much love!
And yet this assertion is shown incorrect by several passages. I've listed these for you in times past. Shall I again?
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
To not be confused that our body is not the flesh Paul is speaking about, he includes the next verse to clear up any confusion, yet it doesn't seem to stop confusing people. LOL
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
This is telling you the same thing as this,
Romans 7:20 YLT
20) And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.
And here,
2 Corinthians 10:2-4 KJV
2) But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
Much love!
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
The Bible has been hijacked by the Devil and his children.
He provides the seminary institutions.
He provides the study books/commentaries.
He deceives by appealing to the flesh of men and their carnal fleshly minds.
The faithful Bible reader is vastly outnumbered by high margins…
Lord help us.
He provides the seminary institutions.
He provides the study books/commentaries.
He deceives by appealing to the flesh of men and their carnal fleshly minds.
The faithful Bible reader is vastly outnumbered by high margins…
Lord help us.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Jesus takes away our sin, so that it is no longer "dwelling in me." That was talking about the Jews who have the Law in their mind, but sin in their flesh, because it only departs through Christ.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Romans 7:24-25 KJV
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
This sums it all up right here. Jesus Christ our Lord delivers us from the body of this death, so then with the mind I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh sin's law.
Galatians 5:16-18 KJV
16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
and . . .
Galatians 5:25 KJV
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Netchaplain,
No verse in the NT says that "Paul sinned", after His conversion.
He did say .....that based on His desire to get rid of Christians and Christianity as a Pharisee, he was found consenting to the death's of believers, and to their beatings., before he was born again.
Later, after His conversion "in Christ".., He gave an astounding Testimony that stated that God took such a person, who abused Christians, and worse, .. that Christ The Lord took this "chief of sinners", as Paul considered his behavior prior to conversion as the worst of the worst type of sinner or "Chief", and allowed Him to become a fire brand of anointing and the "apostle to the Gentiles", and Paul also wrote most of the Epistles in the New Testament.
Paul is showing us, by His TESTIMONY = the incredible Mercy and Grace of God that is available for us all to receive.
Heretics, who dont study the bible, and dont understand the Grace of God, proclaim that Paul was a "sinner" and knew it.
Yet never in the NT does he state that he sins, and never in the NT does he state he ever confessed a sin once he was born again.
Not one verse, not one time.
Not EVER.
So, when you read the blatantly false innuendo that deceived heretics post against the greatest Christian who ever lived, you are to mark them as deceivers, as "dark lights"....Luke 11:35.... who would purposefully have you believe that your Christianity is nothing more then to sin and confess and repeat.
Beware of these liars, as they will destroy your faith, which is their ministry as found on every Forum they infect with their Cross Denying Legalism.
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1 Corinthians 4:1-5 KJV
1) Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2) Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
In this passage Paul explained how he didn't judge himself, and that only Jesus was a fit judge. He conscience was clean, but he recognized that wasn't the final word on the matter.
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Even though our nature is free from sin, we still have free will. When Adam was first created, he was free from sin until he sinned. This is why Paul commanded "do not quench the Spirit." But what we have that Adam didn't have was the power of the Holy Spirit.
What we can agree on I hope is that when we live up the the level of obedience that the Holy Spirit has written on our conscience, we are sinless. But there are more levels of obedience that are going to be written on our conscience in the future, and when those commandments come up to our consciousness, we should live up to that level too and are again sinless. That is what is meant by "revealed from faith to faith." It is the power of God.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Behold
Well-Known Member
Judge this, if you are born again., as """"""he that is spiritual judges all things.""""""
"""""" Paul is the Teacher who said that Jesus became your sin, and you became the Righteousness of God in Christ.
Paul is the Teacher who wrote that you are One with God.
Paul is the Teacher who wrote that you are IN Christ
John is the Teacher who wrote that As Christ is, so are the born again in this world.
Paul is the Teacher who wrote that you are A/The Temple of the Holy Spirit.
Paul is the Teacher who wrote that Christ in you, is the Hope of Glory
Paul is the Teacher who stated that you are currently seated in Heavenly places in Christ.""""""
So, if all that is true, then there is no sin found where all that exists.
And all that exists as the born again Christian., and if you are born again, then you dont have to wait for Jesus to judge what He has already completed for you.
See that list for an update on what is COMPLETED.
What isn't completed?
Your "course', your death , your new body on you, and to be finally "conformed into the very image of Christ", and you get some Heavenly "inheritance" that is waiting on you, if you are born again.
Same as the rest of us who are truly born again.
