No unity ever

[friend of]

Wish He would come TODAY! lol

Amen sister. Even so, Come Lord Jesus!

 

[Enoch111]

I wonder if the core beliefs would/should be whenever Jesus says "Truly, truly....?

You know that is definitely a worthwhile thought. When Jesus said "Verily, verily" or "Truly, truly" that was God addressing men and telling them what was ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. It is significant to note that only the Gospel of John has Christ using this double "verily". In the Greek it is "Amen, Amen" which means that God guarantees the truth and necessity of what is being said.

THE DEITY OF CHRIST IS A FACT
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. (John 3:11) And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man. (John 1:51)

THE PERFECT HARMONY WITHIN THE GODHEAD
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (John 16:23)

FAITH IN CHRIST RESULTS IN EVERLASTING LIFE
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:25) Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. (John 6:26,27)Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. (John 8:51)

JESUS IS THE BREAD OF LIFE
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:32,33)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. (John 6:47,48) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (John 6:53-56)

JESUS HIMSELF IS THE DOOR TO SALVATION
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:7-9)

SINNERS ARE SLAVES TO SIN
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (John 8:34)

THE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH IS A "MUST"
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

DEATH TO SELF RESULTS IN LIFE
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (John 12:24,25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. (John 13:16,17)

SATAN AND HIS MESSENGERS ARE THIEVES AND ROBBERS
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. (John 10:1)

CHRIST'S MESSENGERS REPRESENT CHRIST
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. (John 13:20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)

JUDAS'S BETRAYAL WAS FULLY ANTICIPATED
When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. (John 13:21)

PETER'S DENIAL WAS FULLY ANTICIPATED
Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. (John 13:38)

PETER'S MARTYRDOM WAS FULLY ANTICIPATED
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. (John 21:18)

CHRIST'S RESURRECTION WAS FULLY ANTICIPATED
Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. (John 16:20)

 

[historyb]

Just one small point. It is never mentioned in a book I am reading that details the life of the NTC and nowhere does it say that the church met for communion.

Than that book is wrong because it is mentioned in the NT by St. Paul. The problem is that if one interprets the Bible anything is possible even the errant views of no communion, no Trinity, and even heresies. We also must remember just because something is not in the Bible didn't mean it didn't happen. The Bible was not for every little thing that happened in the Churches that is why St. Paul says to keep what is written and what they taught which can be seen in the Early Church Fathers. St. Ignatius who was a direct Disciple of St. John, the one who wrote the book of John and Revelation, said this:

They [the Docetists, early Christological heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
​

Also of course St. Paul admonished the Corinthians because they were partaking of the Eucharist in an unworthy manner but that does not mean that Churches didn't partake when they meant. Just because every little thing the early Church did is not in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[historyb]

How can you unite with Christ apart from the Bible?

We can't even unite with a Bible, the idea we could is imo a fantasy

 

[historyb]

And the topic here was unity?

I should have titled the thread disunity .

 

[mjrhealth]

Yeah but how do we come to unity when we all think we agree with Christ.

that’s the issue. When we are dead set against the thought we may be wrong

when we all agree with Christ there will be no more religion, no more denominations no more hierarchy, Jesus will be Lord of all, He will be first in all things, He will be mens teacher and we would have nothing to "argue" over.

Did I leave out, and all men will be Led by teh Spirit not there heads.

 

[mjrhealth]

How can you unite with Christ apart from the Bible?

That depends on wheter Christ is dead to you or the risen Lord. If you got most "christans: to think back to when they gave them selves to Christ if they ever read a bible before they did, many would say no. You all insist that God never changes than insist that He did, God doesnt need teh bible men do. If you want to know Christ you have to go to Christ but if you dont believe you can than all you will ever know is about Him and teh bible, and you wont grow,

48 I am the Bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and died. 50 This is the Bread which comes down from Heaven, so that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the Living Bread which came down from Heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he shall live forever. And truly the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

A plant without nourishment will die just as a flame without oil cannot burn. JEsus is teh ticket to His wedding if you are not in Him you wont get in, the bible wont be accepted.

 

[mjrhealth]

I should have titled the thread disunity .

Well you raised teh question and you can see why there will never be, not while we are on this earth and the devil has free reign.

 

[Marymog]

You know that is definitely a worthwhile thought. When Jesus said "Verily, verily" or "Truly, truly" that was God addressing men and telling them what was ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. It is significant to note that only the Gospel of John has Christ using this double "verily". In the Greek it is "Amen, Amen" which means that God guarantees the truth and necessity of what is being said.

THE DEITY OF CHRIST IS A FACT
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. (John 3:11) And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man. (John 1:51)

THE PERFECT HARMONY WITHIN THE GODHEAD
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (John 16:23)

FAITH IN CHRIST RESULTS IN EVERLASTING LIFE
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:25) Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. (John 6:26,27)Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. (John 8:51)

JESUS IS THE BREAD OF LIFE
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:32,33)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. (John 6:47,48) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (John 6:53-56)

JESUS HIMSELF IS THE DOOR TO SALVATION
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:7-9)

SINNERS ARE SLAVES TO SIN
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (John 8:34)

THE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH IS A "MUST"
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

DEATH TO SELF RESULTS IN LIFE
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (John 12:24,25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. (John 13:16,17)

SATAN AND HIS MESSENGERS ARE THIEVES AND ROBBERS
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. (John 10:1)

CHRIST'S MESSENGERS REPRESENT CHRIST
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. (John 13:20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)

JUDAS'S BETRAYAL WAS FULLY ANTICIPATED
When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. (John 13:21)

PETER'S DENIAL WAS FULLY ANTICIPATED
Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. (John 13:38)

PETER'S MARTYRDOM WAS FULLY ANTICIPATED
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. (John 21:18)

CHRIST'S RESURRECTION WAS FULLY ANTICIPATED
Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. (John 16:20)

Hi,

Thank you for putting together that list.

The tough part Enoch is figuring out what He meant by some of those things OR exactly who he was talking to.

Take for instance John 16:23! I know many prayers that have been asked in His name by my Church, friends, online prayer request etc. and it was not given to them. Some would argue that He was talking only to his Apostles when He said that. Others say it was meant for all Christians.

And of course John 6:53-56 where He says we must eat his body/drink his blood. Some argue that we must do exactly what he said and that we do that in the form of the Eucharist. Others say it’s symbolic or we eat and drink his word.

So I guess my point is even if we take the 20 or so passages that you quoted above, which is a very small part of Scripture, and say that to be a ‘true’ Christian one has to believe in those 20 things since Jesus said “Truly, truly” before he said it....we would still argue what “Truly, truly” truly means to be absolutely essential.

 

[Marymog]

I am and have studied the NTC church in-depth and not once has the word eucharist been mentioned.....

Now you got the Historical Mary chiming in marksman....LOOK OUT

Read the Didache...chapter 9 i think. It speaks of the Eucharist.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Timtofly]

We can't even unite with a Bible, the idea we could is imo a fantasy

Well sure. What is written is open for interpretation and debate. It is a starting point. But even the HOLY SPIRIT is not a sure thing, because there seem to be as many false spirits as posters.

 

[Timtofly]

That depends on wheter Christ is dead to you or the risen Lord. If you got most "christans: to think back to when they gave them selves to Christ if they ever read a bible before they did, many would say no. You all insist that God never changes than insist that He did, God doesnt need teh bible men do. If you want to know Christ you have to go to Christ but if you dont believe you can than all you will ever know is about Him and teh bible, and you wont grow,

48 I am the Bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and died. 50 This is the Bread which comes down from Heaven, so that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the Living Bread which came down from Heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he shall live forever. And truly the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

A plant without nourishment will die just as a flame without oil cannot burn. JEsus is teh ticket to His wedding if you are not in Him you wont get in, the bible wont be accepted.

What if eating the flesh and blood of Jesus is actually reading the Bible? Some would be out of food, and starving without the Bible.

The Word is always the physical aspect of God. The Bible still fits the bill as a physical Word of God.

 

[mjrhealth]

What if eating the flesh and blood of Jesus is actually reading the Bible? Some would be out of food, and starving without the Bible.

The Word is always the physical aspect of God. The Bible still fits the bill as a physical Word of God.

No it is not Gods word is Spirit and it is Life, when we learn hear from Him we receive life , there is no other way but Him though men tend to make there own way.

 

[marksman]

Than that book is wrong because it is mentioned in the NT by St. Paul. The problem is that if one interprets the Bible anything is possible even the errant views of no communion, no Trinity, and even heresies. We also must remember just because something is not in the Bible didn't mean it didn't happen. The Bible was not for every little thing that happened in the Churches that is why St. Paul says to keep what is written and what they taught which can be seen in the Early Church Fathers. St. Ignatius who was a direct Disciple of St. John, the one who wrote the book of John and Revelation, said this:

They [the Docetists, early Christological heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
​

Also of course St. Paul admonished the Corinthians because they were partaking of the Eucharist in an unworthy manner but that does not mean that Churches didn't partake when they meant. Just because every little thing the early Church did is not in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't happen.

In actual fact, the book is very accurate in its portrayal of the new testament community. Until you have read it you cannot comment on it. All you can do is guess and as solid truth is not based on guesses, I guess you are without credibility on that one.

And having spent a lot of time studying this very subject using all sorts of sources and writers plus the Greek, I have found it agrees with what the book portrays. As it says, out of the mouths of many witnesses. I am very fortunate I am not rusted onto denominational dictates so I can see the wood from the trees.

 

[marksman]

That is only partially true. The rest of it is to show Christians how Christian worship is to be conducted, and how the Lord's Supper is to be observed.

I look forward to your exegesis of the passage.

 

[marksman]

It is really annoying when Christians contradict what is clearly stated in the Bible.

When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. (1 Cor 11:20)

What does Paul means by "this is NOT to eat the Lord's Supper"? He was rebuking the Corinthians for abusing the Lord's Supper and failing to observe it as it ought to be observed (as the rest of that chapter shows). But Paul specifically called it "the Lord's Supper" since it was instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ as a Remembrance or Memorial Feast. Before this Memorial Feast, the early Christians had a fellowship meal, but the Corinthians were treating that with contempt, and Paul addresses that.

The Catholic Church calls it "Eucharist" since the Greek word eucharistos means "the giving of thanks", and indeed the Lord gave thanks for both the bread and the cup. And that is the Greek word in the NT.

Had the Catholic Church followed the New Testament pattern, they would have observed it as a weekly Remembrance Feast. Instead, they turned it into the "Mass", which includes (1) a real sacrifice of Christ, on a (2) real altar, by a (3) real priest. And that is not the Lord's Supper at all. It is a RE-SACRIFICE of Christ (even though bloodless) and that makes a mockery of the finished work of Christ.

Yes, I agree and I get annoyed when people make the scripture say what it does not say because they are too lazy to study what it does say.

One. That passage says when you come together it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. ergo.

Two. No where does Jesus say you are to go through the ritual once a week. In the background studies I have done of the NTC they did not do it at all. If you don't like that it is your problem, not mine.

Three. When Jesus gave thanks for the bread and the cup it was the normal thing they did during the Passover meal and there were four cups of wine on the table. Do you have four cups of wine because if you don't you are not doing it properly? And it was done in the context of a meal. Do you have a meal when you have the bread and wine because if you don't you are ignoring scripture?

Four. When doing exegesis you cannot pick out the bits you like and ignore the others and you cannot form a doctrine on one verse or passage of scripture as you have done.

Five. What I was taught I was taught mainly by a Jew that converted to Christianity and a Professor of Linguistics at Cambridge University who specialized in Hebrew and Greek and who had lived in Israel for many years.

 

[Marymog]

It would be so nice if we could just set aside our beliefs and just open our eyes to what others are saying. Instead of being offended they have the nerve to say something we do not agree with.

sadly I have been in forums where catholics are banned if they try to push their doctrines and I was invited to a catholic forum where I said I believed the gates of hell was not an offensive weapon used by Satan to destroy the church but a defensive weapon used by him to keep the church from rescuing people from his grasp And freeing them, and was immediately banned as an anti catholic

even in here, there are people from all sides who are offended and come out screaming and attacking anyone who disagrees with them, you have your defenders of the Catholic Church, the Protestant church, the calvinists the Baptist’s etc etc who cannot year what others are saying because they are on the defense mode, and this is sad.

I agree with @Heart2Soul it would be nice (I was not fast enough to post on that thread) but sadly, after visiting chatrooms for many years, I do not see it happening unless the mods really crack down.

but then who do they punish, the angry catholic or calvinist who feels attacked, or the person who is disagreeing with them and trying to explain why he believes the way he does. And then
gets out of hand because he feels no one is listening to him and he is continually attacked? So he starts attacking back

Amen EG....It would be nice if we could just set aside our beliefs. How will we ever fulfill Jesus prayer in John 17 if we don’t set them aside!!

I will admit....It is tough to set aside ones belief and not defend what they believe is the Truth. Especially when scripture tells us to defend the Truth.

Maybe debates should only be allowed in the ‘debate forum’? If anyone starts debating their belief in any other forum they can be locked out of that discussion?

That would be a full time job for the MODS....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen EG....It would be nice if we could just set aside our beliefs. How will we ever fulfill Jesus prayer in John 17 if we don’t set them aside!!

I will admit....It is tough to set aside ones belief and not defend what they believe is the Truth. Especially when scripture tells us to defend the Truth.

Maybe debates should only be allowed in the ‘debate forum’? If anyone starts debating their belief in any other forum they can be locked out of that discussion?

That would be a full time job for the MODS....

Yes it would lol

I think this is one issue. Why are we here?

1 to fellowship with like believers? That’s hard in a multi denominational chat room

2 to study Gods word? This is hard unless we are open to all things. Including the fact we may be wrong

3. To defend our beliefs? This is what causes most of the division because we can’t hear what the other person is saying we just hear an attack on our faith

4 to share our beliefs and be open to others to study and learn gods word with the knowledge we may learn something which may even go against what we have always believed. And also that not everyone will agree with us in every topic but we should not judge them because they do not come to our view but embrace them as brothers and sisters This is about the only form of discussion which will not be decisive or confrontational. At least in my view

sadly we have too many who come for the 1st three reasons. And then wonder why there can seemingly be no unity

 

[Josho]

Remember he broke bread with them at the passover meal, they were also eating the passover lamb, if we look in corinthians paul also had to scold the church because the people We’re getting fat and full eating all the food, and not saving any for the other people. (As well as getting drunk)

1 cor 11
20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

sadly it looks nothing like what we see in traditional churches today.

I will look more into to this, I might reply you in another thread though about the tradition later.

 

[Nancy]

Yes it would lol

I think this is one issue. Why are we here?

1 to fellowship with like believers? That’s hard in a multi denominational chat room

2 to study Gods word? This is hard unless we are open to all things. Including the fact we may be wrong

3. To defend our beliefs? This is what causes most of the division because we can’t hear what the other person is saying we just hear an attack on our faith

4 to share our beliefs and be open to others to study and learn gods word with the knowledge we may learn something which may even go against what we have always believed. And also that not everyone will agree with us in every topic but we should not judge them because they do not come to our view but embrace them as brothers and sisters This is about the only form of discussion which will not be decisive or confrontational. At least in my view

sadly we have too many who come for the 1st three reasons. And then wonder why there can seemingly be no unity

Well put E.G.