Not by works - but by faith
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This is a valid point but I would question content.
There is a lot of difference between good reliable content and everything else.
A pastor was asked about whether the individual should be doing something. The pastors answer was while doing the task pray to the Lord for guidance.
Often things become very clear when we bring the Lord into a situation.
That is God speaking to our hearts and us responding. When light shines things often become clearer.
Ahhh BUT....the Holy Spirit speaks ONLY what He hears from the Father...True, but I consider the holy spirit the egg, not the chicken.
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
— John 16:13 (KJV)
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
How can you tell what you think your hearing from the HS is really from the HS?
what is your test?
This is so true. I find when the Lord speaks He encourages and confirms Gods word to our hearts.
It is difficult sometimes to grasp how much He cares and wants to reach out and show His love to His people.
I have found it interesting when people suggest as soon as one declares God led me into this realisation, it must be false or wrong. It is like anything from God is suspect, but if it confirms someones theology it is ok. So when the Lord leads us in our hearts to a verse that confirms Gods will, that could not be the Holy Spirit or else the critical believer is actually following a false teaching or a false teacher.
But the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to teach us and lead us deeper into the Lord and His ways, so unless one does not have the Holy Spirit at all, this is a normal experience of Gods people.
I can only speak for myself but I know it's Him because I feel His presence and every part of my physical being tingles and His voice is very calming yet authoritative. And because He is in me and it says we hear His voice and no other voice will we follow.
The same way He has since the very beginning of Christianity - have you ever heard of "the Church"?
That same original Church still exists today - it's called the Catholic Church
Paul Christensen
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So, did God tell the pope in the Middle Ages to order the slaughter of tens of thousands of men, women, and children just because they refused to worship and pray to Mary?
The problem with me accepting the Roman Catholic church as even a Christian one let alone the true one, is that I can't see past the hundreds of years of atrocities that it did to innocent men, women and children who would not comply with the authority of the different rat-bag, adulterous popes of those times.
Now the present pope is hand in glove with Islam, saying that we are all brothers and worship the same God, and yet in Muslim nations atrocities are being committed on Christians. So, the "true" church is going to be a merger of Roman Catholicism and Islam? If the pope is saying that Muslims worship the same God, he must see them as "our brothers in Christ" and therefore a true church the same as his own!
So I wonder what interpretation of the Bible does he have that says that Islam is "our brothers under God"?
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So what? David Koresh probably said the same thing. So have lots of folks who were mentally ill.
Paul Christensen
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So the Middle Ages pope who instructed the Catholic crusaders to go into Southern France and exterminate all the Biblical Christians who did not want to recognise his authority, was also hearing from the Holy Spirit? Was it the Holy Spirit who told successive popes that those who translated the Bible into English and who owned an English Bible be burned at the stake? Was it the Holy Spirit who told the popes to keep the approved Bible in Latin and the Mass performed in Latin, so ordinary people wouldn't understand it and be able to check whether the doctrines and ceremonies were actually Biblical?
This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and His relationship with God's children....be very careful. He speaks to us as it is written in scripture and to say it is mental illness is to deny His Truth.
If a person does have the Holy Spirit but regularly quenches that Spirit in himself, would not that also quench growth? I see in many churches where I have visited and where I have been a member that quenching the Holy Spirit in services is often a routine practice. Some people who have had a real experience with God have deluded themselves as they set aside their first love in favor of whatever their congregation or denomination was pushing that was Not from God. Is that not why Apostle Paul wrote these words?
"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19
Too often people in following the lead of their ministers or the established doctrines of their group wait when they should be acting or reacting to the lead of the Holy Spirit. This is not waiting on the Lord, but quenching the Holy Spirit. After a while they are so deep in their delusion they have truly transferred their first love from first things according to God, to first things according to pastor or denomination, etc.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Salvation
Salvation…what is the process? A very simple process described in the NT, but made complex and confusing by men.
I firmly believe you could write all you Needed to know for Christian salvation and the application of it on a 3 by 5 cards and drop them on one island and drop a bunch of Bibles on another and the people on the 3 by 5 card drop would practice a more correct version of Christianity. The reason?
You get a bunch a boys together….they form a club….they argue about what rules they are going to make….girls are lucky if they are even included….and they make a mess of everything. Sound familiar?
Then of course there is Satan. Lets argue and kill for Christ! He is a schemer. Throw a few doctrines in the mix so as to confuse any attempt to understand. Thousands of attempts by “any and all” of the denominations to understand, but agreement is scarce. Sadly and ironically there is a certain amount of humor to this, if you read the forum here, there are very unique forms of Christian expression. Mostly abstract thoughts expressed in a several ways that leads to nowhere. Then there is the circle talk. People can talk circular patterns around the prophecies, divine kingdoms, rapture, and Revelation because there is absolutely no agreement on it.
As it is now the understanding of salvation is postulated in one of hundreds of combinations and arrangements. Let us look at the variety….
1. That Yeshua’s death on the cross saved everyone on earth and they are all going to heaven…derived from scriptures like…Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. 1st John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
2. As far as faith? Using the word “they” loosely…they say that over 200 times, the Bible indicates that belief alone is required for salvation and entry into heaven. ….justified by faith alone…. But then for those that believe that more than faith is required…or includes certain things....
3. Works! The Greek word ἔργον can be translated works or deeds and many times translated to one or the other incorrectly. For those that like the idea of merging the Jewish and Christian religions, salvation includes various amounts of the Mosaic Laws. Not usually all of them because most do not know all of them and or do not want to acknowledge that God made some of them.
4. So in the middle ground three are those that believe that salvation is a process. But from here it gets complicated…..because they cannot agree, ergo the thousands of denominations.
Works
1. Some believe that works are not required and works include complying with the scriptures that say you should believe, repent, be baptize, and participate in communion. This group can include those that believe that everyone on earth is saved with no action or thought…thought can be defined as works as well as a change of moral conduct. You are working on your moral conduct to get to heaven.
2. Then there are those that believe that all you have to do is believe and you are saved.
3. Then there are some that believe that works are defined as following the Mosaic Law, and there is no need for that, but complying with belief, repentance, baptism, and communion are not works. But even within this group there are differing beliefs.
Repentance…beliefs regarding repentance run in all directions.
a. Repentance requires recollection of every sin.
b. Repentance is the realization and acknowledgment that you have sinned.
c. Repentance is the realization and acknowledgment that you have sinned and
intend to stop sinning.
d. Repentance is the realization and acknowledgment that you have sinned and
actually stop sinning.
e. Repentance is the realization and acknowledgment that you have sinned and
actually stop sinning and do some sort of penance.
f. Repentance is a pledge to never sin again or repentance was not real. On this one
point, some believe you lose your salvation and have to start over again. Or you were
never really saved to begin with.
g. Some believe if you continue to sin or fall away that there is no possibility of
repentance or salvation.
h. Repentance has to occur before Baptism.
i. Repentance is a single event that is complete.
j. Repentance is an on going thing as you realize what you have done wrong.
k. You cannot repent habitual sins.
l. You can repent habitual sins. (Name it and claim it)
m. You can repent of habitual sins and be saved but make an earnest effort to stop sinning.
There is actually more to repentance as I will get back to that.
Baptism and Communion
Beliefs vary on these two processes-rituals, and they run from one end of the spectrum to the other. Some believe that both have no spiritual connection or affect in heaven or on the person. That they are performed as an act of obedience and or are merely a public display. Some believe that they are part of the process of salvation and are miracles in themselves and are noted by heaven and change the individual physically and or spiritually.
Baptism
The various beliefs:
a. Public display, no spiritual meaning, an act of obedience, you just get wet and it is or is not a
requirement of salvation.
b. Baptism is a religious event but does not forgive sins and is not required for salvation.
c. Baptism is a religious event but does not forgive sins but is a requirement for salvation.
d. Baptism for the remission of sins. Forgiveness of the individual’s sins and is a requirement for salvation.
e. Baptism for the remission of sins and the regeneration. The born of water process….born again as a new spiritual individual. Spiritual memory of the old person forgotten. Forgiveness of the
individual’s past sins. Which set some believe sets the conditions of the baptism of the Holy
Spirit.
Salvation…what is the process? A very simple process described in the NT, but made complex and confusing by men.
I firmly believe you could write all you Needed to know for Christian salvation and the application of it on a 3 by 5 cards and drop them on one island and drop a bunch of Bibles on another and the people on the 3 by 5 card drop would practice a more correct version of Christianity. The reason?
You get a bunch a boys together….they form a club….they argue about what rules they are going to make….girls are lucky if they are even included….and they make a mess of everything. Sound familiar?
Then of course there is Satan. Lets argue and kill for Christ! He is a schemer. Throw a few doctrines in the mix so as to confuse any attempt to understand. Thousands of attempts by “any and all” of the denominations to understand, but agreement is scarce. Sadly and ironically there is a certain amount of humor to this, if you read the forum here, there are very unique forms of Christian expression. Mostly abstract thoughts expressed in a several ways that leads to nowhere. Then there is the circle talk. People can talk circular patterns around the prophecies, divine kingdoms, rapture, and Revelation because there is absolutely no agreement on it.
As it is now the understanding of salvation is postulated in one of hundreds of combinations and arrangements. Let us look at the variety….
1. That Yeshua’s death on the cross saved everyone on earth and they are all going to heaven…derived from scriptures like…Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. 1st John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
2. As far as faith? Using the word “they” loosely…they say that over 200 times, the Bible indicates that belief alone is required for salvation and entry into heaven. ….justified by faith alone…. But then for those that believe that more than faith is required…or includes certain things....
3. Works! The Greek word ἔργον can be translated works or deeds and many times translated to one or the other incorrectly. For those that like the idea of merging the Jewish and Christian religions, salvation includes various amounts of the Mosaic Laws. Not usually all of them because most do not know all of them and or do not want to acknowledge that God made some of them.
4. So in the middle ground three are those that believe that salvation is a process. But from here it gets complicated…..because they cannot agree, ergo the thousands of denominations.
Works
1. Some believe that works are not required and works include complying with the scriptures that say you should believe, repent, be baptize, and participate in communion. This group can include those that believe that everyone on earth is saved with no action or thought…thought can be defined as works as well as a change of moral conduct. You are working on your moral conduct to get to heaven.
2. Then there are those that believe that all you have to do is believe and you are saved.
3. Then there are some that believe that works are defined as following the Mosaic Law, and there is no need for that, but complying with belief, repentance, baptism, and communion are not works. But even within this group there are differing beliefs.
Repentance…beliefs regarding repentance run in all directions.
a. Repentance requires recollection of every sin.
b. Repentance is the realization and acknowledgment that you have sinned.
c. Repentance is the realization and acknowledgment that you have sinned and
intend to stop sinning.
d. Repentance is the realization and acknowledgment that you have sinned and
actually stop sinning.
e. Repentance is the realization and acknowledgment that you have sinned and
actually stop sinning and do some sort of penance.
f. Repentance is a pledge to never sin again or repentance was not real. On this one
point, some believe you lose your salvation and have to start over again. Or you were
never really saved to begin with.
g. Some believe if you continue to sin or fall away that there is no possibility of
repentance or salvation.
h. Repentance has to occur before Baptism.
i. Repentance is a single event that is complete.
j. Repentance is an on going thing as you realize what you have done wrong.
k. You cannot repent habitual sins.
l. You can repent habitual sins. (Name it and claim it)
m. You can repent of habitual sins and be saved but make an earnest effort to stop sinning.
There is actually more to repentance as I will get back to that.
Baptism and Communion
Beliefs vary on these two processes-rituals, and they run from one end of the spectrum to the other. Some believe that both have no spiritual connection or affect in heaven or on the person. That they are performed as an act of obedience and or are merely a public display. Some believe that they are part of the process of salvation and are miracles in themselves and are noted by heaven and change the individual physically and or spiritually.
Baptism
The various beliefs:
a. Public display, no spiritual meaning, an act of obedience, you just get wet and it is or is not a
requirement of salvation.
b. Baptism is a religious event but does not forgive sins and is not required for salvation.
c. Baptism is a religious event but does not forgive sins but is a requirement for salvation.
d. Baptism for the remission of sins. Forgiveness of the individual’s sins and is a requirement for salvation.
e. Baptism for the remission of sins and the regeneration. The born of water process….born again as a new spiritual individual. Spiritual memory of the old person forgotten. Forgiveness of the
individual’s past sins. Which set some believe sets the conditions of the baptism of the Holy
Spirit.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Communion….Eucharist….Lord’s Supper
a. Not a sacrament- does nothing. Public display no miracle and no spiritual meaning, an act of obedience, not a requirement for salvation. Crackers and Kool-aid.
b. Symbolic as a religious ritual, a form of worship, obedience, commemoration of Christ’s sacrificial death, not part of salvation and then of course not a requirement for salvation.
c. Spiritual in an unspecified way, commemoration of Christ’s sacrificial death, not a requirement for salvation.
d. Performed in obedience, but according to Catholic and Lutheran and other beliefs, the bread and wine transform to varying degrees to the body and blood of Christ. Commemoration of Christ’s sacrificial death and a requirement for salvation according to Catholic beliefs, but not according to Lutheran beliefs.
(Now on this I have to comment; You can look this up, in the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Anglican, and Oriental Orthodox Churches, they believe that the body of Christ is really manifested (in different ways) in the Eucharist and it is a miracle, in that they have taken Christ into their body. Opinions vary on the subsequental miracles and revelations that follow.
According to Christ if you do not do this, there is no life in you and you do not abide in Him or He in you. So what is salvation like, if there is no life in you and you do not abide in Christ and He in you?
The significance of this event is attested to by Yeshua Himself…no life in you....if you do not do this… He was speaking of eternal life just like any other time He was speaking of life in association with Him. He was speaking of abiding in Him just like any other time He was speaking of abiding in Him.
Paul understood the significance and power of this ritual when he warned that you had to be right with Yeshua when you partook of this ritual, warning that it could cause death-sleep. 1st Corinthians 11:26-32 So you can be saved from hell, but if you do not believe in and perform this ritual…you will not have eternal life…that is probably going to have an affect on you.
Looking at the perspective of it all, a couple things are for certain, the false doctrines do introduce confusion and the inability to understand. But also the scriptures can get a little confusing. There are a lot of people that do not understand what Paul said in the scriptures. For example, how many ways did Paul say and explain in detail that we are not under the Mosaic Law, but yet how many Christians believe we are. Paul was near to being a genius, and when a genius talks to people, sometimes they talk over their heads.
Then again the subject matter is not all that cut and dry. Why?
Salvation involves the nature and rules of the divine. Atonement?....You break my fence and my son has to die for me to forgive you….It is not a concept that exists in our world, culture, or society. It involves a complicated set of conditions and rules that is actually alien to us. Yeshua could not just come and introduce a new covenant like Yahweh had done in the OT. The world had accumulated a large tally of sins…a debt…as we understood in our terms. Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.”
The justice of Yahweh, dictates that payment be made in lieu of atonement or forgiveness. So by Yahweh’s rules, forgiveness comes at a price. People like to say that salvation is the free gift of God. Ask Christ if it was free. He may offer salvation to us freely, but it came with a heavy price. So when you look at the elements and terms used in salvation you will see judicial terms and terms that imply a payment made by Christ, for us and in our place. This was a God that loved us so much He was willing to go through the passion and death sequence for us. This was a God that took off His clothes and got down on His knees and washed the Apostle’s feet.
To understand salvation, you have to understand the love Yeshua had/has for us, while yet we were sinners. This is the key to understanding salvation. The love Yeshua has for sinners….we were sinners….we are sinners…and we are always going to be sinners, and yet He loves us. The plan and process and progression of salvation was never made for the perfect. You also need to consider that Yeshua’s mission on earth was a plan…a plan of the Trinity ….a plan that called for the Son of God to be scourged beyond all understanding and crucified to a cross. What do you bet They would come up with a plan that would have an extremely high success rate? You have to keep this in mind when considering all aspects of salvation…from belief….to heaven.
The truth about salvation?….it is not a denomination thing….No person or Church can control this. It is a Gospel thing. Much has been said about salvation so let’s take a different approach to this, let me ask some questions.
1. Do the scriptures indicate that you can be saved if you do not believe that Yeshua is a God? If you do not believe He is the Son of God? Or if you do not believe He is the Messiah? And that He was crucified for your Sins?
The answer: No.
2. Do the scriptures indicate that Baptism causes the remission of sin?
The answer: Yes.
3. Do the scriptures indicate that Baptism is optional?
The answer: No.
4. Are your sins remitted if you do not believe that Baptism remits sins?
The answer: I say no. But on the other hand, by the words said at baptism and the actions taken, is that enough? You’ll find out.
5. Do the scriptures indicate that Baptism is a spiritual event that causes a spiritual death and rebirth?
The answer: Yes.
6. Do the scriptures in words and actions indicate an urgency for water Baptism?
The answer: Yes.
7. Do the scriptures indicate that you can go to heaven without water Baptism?
The answer: The scriptures do not address this. But this does pose a few other questions; If the phrase “baptism for the remission of sins” is true, can you go to heaven with a lifetime of sins to your tally? Do you want to go to heaven with God remembering the evil person that you were? We know that Yeshua is the judge of all things so, I leave it as an open question, but is the disposition of your soul worth the risk? Of course there will be people that will take that risk because they do not believe baptism means anything.
8: If a believer dies before being water baptized, what happens?
The answer: This concern can be seen by the obvious urgency in the scriptures for water baptism. There are examples of this in the scriptures. But in regard to the question; what happens if you die before being baptized or take communion. The bottom line is that the Bible does not address this situation and maybe one of the reasons that some have come to believe that baptism and communion are not part of salvation.
Communion….Eucharist….the Lord’s Supper….
1. Did Yeshua say this is my body and this is my blood…or….did He say consider that this is like my body and this is like my blood…or…did He say this symbolizes my body and my blood.
Answer: …this is my blood…this is my body…
2. Do the scriptures indicate that you can have “eternal life” if you do not partake of communion?
Answer: No. No eternal life and you do not abide in Christ and He in you. The importance of this ritual can be seen by Yeshua’s insistence on this. The shocking nature of it can be seen by the Apostle’s reaction. Still, their choice was to accept it or leave. It was not a parable or an analogy, He actually performed it at the Last Supper.
3. Can you go to heaven without partaking of communion?
Answer: Yeshua did not say you would not go to heaven, He said you would not have any life in you. Not sure what it would be like to arrive in heaven with no life and separated from Christ…or if that could happen. Best advice, partake of communion and believe.
The Bible has a lot of words and sometimes understanding gets lost in them. We are told to Believe, repent, be baptized, and perform communion. If you do not comply or believe in this; what does that mean? Believe as children and do what you are told to do.
a. Not a sacrament- does nothing. Public display no miracle and no spiritual meaning, an act of obedience, not a requirement for salvation. Crackers and Kool-aid.
b. Symbolic as a religious ritual, a form of worship, obedience, commemoration of Christ’s sacrificial death, not part of salvation and then of course not a requirement for salvation.
c. Spiritual in an unspecified way, commemoration of Christ’s sacrificial death, not a requirement for salvation.
d. Performed in obedience, but according to Catholic and Lutheran and other beliefs, the bread and wine transform to varying degrees to the body and blood of Christ. Commemoration of Christ’s sacrificial death and a requirement for salvation according to Catholic beliefs, but not according to Lutheran beliefs.
(Now on this I have to comment; You can look this up, in the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Anglican, and Oriental Orthodox Churches, they believe that the body of Christ is really manifested (in different ways) in the Eucharist and it is a miracle, in that they have taken Christ into their body. Opinions vary on the subsequental miracles and revelations that follow.
According to Christ if you do not do this, there is no life in you and you do not abide in Him or He in you. So what is salvation like, if there is no life in you and you do not abide in Christ and He in you?
The significance of this event is attested to by Yeshua Himself…no life in you....if you do not do this… He was speaking of eternal life just like any other time He was speaking of life in association with Him. He was speaking of abiding in Him just like any other time He was speaking of abiding in Him.
Paul understood the significance and power of this ritual when he warned that you had to be right with Yeshua when you partook of this ritual, warning that it could cause death-sleep. 1st Corinthians 11:26-32 So you can be saved from hell, but if you do not believe in and perform this ritual…you will not have eternal life…that is probably going to have an affect on you.
Looking at the perspective of it all, a couple things are for certain, the false doctrines do introduce confusion and the inability to understand. But also the scriptures can get a little confusing. There are a lot of people that do not understand what Paul said in the scriptures. For example, how many ways did Paul say and explain in detail that we are not under the Mosaic Law, but yet how many Christians believe we are. Paul was near to being a genius, and when a genius talks to people, sometimes they talk over their heads.
Then again the subject matter is not all that cut and dry. Why?
Salvation involves the nature and rules of the divine. Atonement?....You break my fence and my son has to die for me to forgive you….It is not a concept that exists in our world, culture, or society. It involves a complicated set of conditions and rules that is actually alien to us. Yeshua could not just come and introduce a new covenant like Yahweh had done in the OT. The world had accumulated a large tally of sins…a debt…as we understood in our terms. Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.”
The justice of Yahweh, dictates that payment be made in lieu of atonement or forgiveness. So by Yahweh’s rules, forgiveness comes at a price. People like to say that salvation is the free gift of God. Ask Christ if it was free. He may offer salvation to us freely, but it came with a heavy price. So when you look at the elements and terms used in salvation you will see judicial terms and terms that imply a payment made by Christ, for us and in our place. This was a God that loved us so much He was willing to go through the passion and death sequence for us. This was a God that took off His clothes and got down on His knees and washed the Apostle’s feet.
To understand salvation, you have to understand the love Yeshua had/has for us, while yet we were sinners. This is the key to understanding salvation. The love Yeshua has for sinners….we were sinners….we are sinners…and we are always going to be sinners, and yet He loves us. The plan and process and progression of salvation was never made for the perfect. You also need to consider that Yeshua’s mission on earth was a plan…a plan of the Trinity ….a plan that called for the Son of God to be scourged beyond all understanding and crucified to a cross. What do you bet They would come up with a plan that would have an extremely high success rate? You have to keep this in mind when considering all aspects of salvation…from belief….to heaven.
The truth about salvation?….it is not a denomination thing….No person or Church can control this. It is a Gospel thing. Much has been said about salvation so let’s take a different approach to this, let me ask some questions.
1. Do the scriptures indicate that you can be saved if you do not believe that Yeshua is a God? If you do not believe He is the Son of God? Or if you do not believe He is the Messiah? And that He was crucified for your Sins?
The answer: No.
2. Do the scriptures indicate that Baptism causes the remission of sin?
The answer: Yes.
3. Do the scriptures indicate that Baptism is optional?
The answer: No.
4. Are your sins remitted if you do not believe that Baptism remits sins?
The answer: I say no. But on the other hand, by the words said at baptism and the actions taken, is that enough? You’ll find out.
5. Do the scriptures indicate that Baptism is a spiritual event that causes a spiritual death and rebirth?
The answer: Yes.
6. Do the scriptures in words and actions indicate an urgency for water Baptism?
The answer: Yes.
7. Do the scriptures indicate that you can go to heaven without water Baptism?
The answer: The scriptures do not address this. But this does pose a few other questions; If the phrase “baptism for the remission of sins” is true, can you go to heaven with a lifetime of sins to your tally? Do you want to go to heaven with God remembering the evil person that you were? We know that Yeshua is the judge of all things so, I leave it as an open question, but is the disposition of your soul worth the risk? Of course there will be people that will take that risk because they do not believe baptism means anything.
8: If a believer dies before being water baptized, what happens?
The answer: This concern can be seen by the obvious urgency in the scriptures for water baptism. There are examples of this in the scriptures. But in regard to the question; what happens if you die before being baptized or take communion. The bottom line is that the Bible does not address this situation and maybe one of the reasons that some have come to believe that baptism and communion are not part of salvation.
Communion….Eucharist….the Lord’s Supper….
1. Did Yeshua say this is my body and this is my blood…or….did He say consider that this is like my body and this is like my blood…or…did He say this symbolizes my body and my blood.
Answer: …this is my blood…this is my body…
2. Do the scriptures indicate that you can have “eternal life” if you do not partake of communion?
Answer: No. No eternal life and you do not abide in Christ and He in you. The importance of this ritual can be seen by Yeshua’s insistence on this. The shocking nature of it can be seen by the Apostle’s reaction. Still, their choice was to accept it or leave. It was not a parable or an analogy, He actually performed it at the Last Supper.
3. Can you go to heaven without partaking of communion?
Answer: Yeshua did not say you would not go to heaven, He said you would not have any life in you. Not sure what it would be like to arrive in heaven with no life and separated from Christ…or if that could happen. Best advice, partake of communion and believe.
The Bible has a lot of words and sometimes understanding gets lost in them. We are told to Believe, repent, be baptized, and perform communion. If you do not comply or believe in this; what does that mean? Believe as children and do what you are told to do.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Further information on repentance
Definition of the English word; Repent
Merriam-Webster
intransitive verb
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2a: to feel regret or contrition
b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance gives Christian definitions for repent and repentance.
#3340
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Definition: to change one's mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
#3341
metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.
Here is a common Christian statement regarding repentance:
Repentance, metanoia in the Greek, means a change of mind. In the New Testament repentance is always a change of mind which results in a change of life. God calls us, through the moral law and His offer of grace in Christ, to change our minds about our self-centered ways of living, to stop going our own way and follow Christ instead. Repentance thus involves a 180 degree turn of morale character.
The problem with the above statement is that it is not accurate….
Anyone that thinks that studying the details of the Bible is an easy thing…
well this is a good example that they are wrong. The Webster Dictionary is a secular reference, but pulls Christian beliefs into its definition. Strong’s as a whole is very accurate, but in some instances it is guilty of what they call “Christianizing”. The definitions above are Old English-Old French Christian definitions of a Pagan word.
Repent (μετανοέω) and Repentance (μετάνοια) are Pagan Greek words ….and as most know the New Testament was written mostly in Greek. These Greek words are not religious and they are not Christian. The Greek language had been around awhile before Christ’s ministry and Christ and the Apostle knew these words and used them in their context.
The Greek words do not have anything to do with change, turn around, or 180 degrees of change of moral conduct. But there is a meaning or sense of regret and sorrow for doing wrong or wronging someone. And the meaning of the Greek words are properly represented in the Bible because, those writing the scriptures understood the Greek words and used them in context.
Greek meaning of the word repeat: A realization and an admission that you have done wrong or wronged someone, and want to make it right….Repent is in the mind…not an action…a desire not to do wrong again. And it is in this context the scriptures use the word…in that you don’t want to do wrong again. The people that were converting to Christianity in the first century were not theologians. They simply understood that what they were doing before was not right and they wanted to learn through Christianity, the right way…. “The Way.”
As applied in the scriptures, it is a condition required in order to receive forgiveness. But on the other hand, it is a sure thing. Repent and be baptized and your sins will be forgiven. This is a simple thing, several times baptism is referred to as the baptism for the remission of sins.
In biblical era, they were not listing their past sins. Repentance simply was the realization and belief that in their past life they had done wrong and in their new life as a Christian, they intended to conform to Christian morales. But salvation was not contingent on perfection.
For reference a few scriptures on repentance;
Acts 11:18 NASB
When they heard these things, they were silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then God has granted to the Gentiles also repentance unto life.
Acts 11:18 KJV
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Context: Repentance here means forgiveness unto life or that leads to life. It does not mean repenting your whole life.
Mark 1:4 KJV
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Context: …preach the baptism of forgiveness for the canceling / removal of sins. So why didn’t they just say forgiveness? Because in loose terms, the realization and admission of wrong occurs before baptism and repentance is the forgiveness of those sins. I say “loose” because a new Christian might not know or remember all the things he or she did was wrong at the time of Baptism.
Luke 15:7 NASB
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance….
Context: …over one sinner that realizes they did wrong than the ninety-nine righteous persons who need no forgiveness.
Luke 17:3 KJV
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Context: If he repents, it is correct to expect forgiveness.
Luke 24:46-47 NASB
And said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Context: And the forgiveness and the canceling of the charges of sins should be preached.
Act 26:20 NASB
but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
Note: I suspect verses like this is how the Christian definition came to include the word turn. Context: should realize and admit they did wrong, turn to God and perform the deeds appropriate for those that have been forgiven.
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Context: Admit your wrong doing, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the removal of sins… There are several of these scriptures.
Definition of the English word; Repent
Merriam-Webster
intransitive verb
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2a: to feel regret or contrition
b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance gives Christian definitions for repent and repentance.
#3340
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Definition: to change one's mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
#3341
metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.
Here is a common Christian statement regarding repentance:
Repentance, metanoia in the Greek, means a change of mind. In the New Testament repentance is always a change of mind which results in a change of life. God calls us, through the moral law and His offer of grace in Christ, to change our minds about our self-centered ways of living, to stop going our own way and follow Christ instead. Repentance thus involves a 180 degree turn of morale character.
The problem with the above statement is that it is not accurate….
Anyone that thinks that studying the details of the Bible is an easy thing…
well this is a good example that they are wrong. The Webster Dictionary is a secular reference, but pulls Christian beliefs into its definition. Strong’s as a whole is very accurate, but in some instances it is guilty of what they call “Christianizing”. The definitions above are Old English-Old French Christian definitions of a Pagan word.
Repent (μετανοέω) and Repentance (μετάνοια) are Pagan Greek words ….and as most know the New Testament was written mostly in Greek. These Greek words are not religious and they are not Christian. The Greek language had been around awhile before Christ’s ministry and Christ and the Apostle knew these words and used them in their context.
The Greek words do not have anything to do with change, turn around, or 180 degrees of change of moral conduct. But there is a meaning or sense of regret and sorrow for doing wrong or wronging someone. And the meaning of the Greek words are properly represented in the Bible because, those writing the scriptures understood the Greek words and used them in context.
Greek meaning of the word repeat: A realization and an admission that you have done wrong or wronged someone, and want to make it right….Repent is in the mind…not an action…a desire not to do wrong again. And it is in this context the scriptures use the word…in that you don’t want to do wrong again. The people that were converting to Christianity in the first century were not theologians. They simply understood that what they were doing before was not right and they wanted to learn through Christianity, the right way…. “The Way.”
As applied in the scriptures, it is a condition required in order to receive forgiveness. But on the other hand, it is a sure thing. Repent and be baptized and your sins will be forgiven. This is a simple thing, several times baptism is referred to as the baptism for the remission of sins.
In biblical era, they were not listing their past sins. Repentance simply was the realization and belief that in their past life they had done wrong and in their new life as a Christian, they intended to conform to Christian morales. But salvation was not contingent on perfection.
For reference a few scriptures on repentance;
Acts 11:18 NASB
When they heard these things, they were silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then God has granted to the Gentiles also repentance unto life.
Acts 11:18 KJV
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Context: Repentance here means forgiveness unto life or that leads to life. It does not mean repenting your whole life.
Mark 1:4 KJV
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Context: …preach the baptism of forgiveness for the canceling / removal of sins. So why didn’t they just say forgiveness? Because in loose terms, the realization and admission of wrong occurs before baptism and repentance is the forgiveness of those sins. I say “loose” because a new Christian might not know or remember all the things he or she did was wrong at the time of Baptism.
Luke 15:7 NASB
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance….
Context: …over one sinner that realizes they did wrong than the ninety-nine righteous persons who need no forgiveness.
Luke 17:3 KJV
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Context: If he repents, it is correct to expect forgiveness.
Luke 24:46-47 NASB
And said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Context: And the forgiveness and the canceling of the charges of sins should be preached.
Act 26:20 NASB
but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
Note: I suspect verses like this is how the Christian definition came to include the word turn. Context: should realize and admit they did wrong, turn to God and perform the deeds appropriate for those that have been forgiven.
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Context: Admit your wrong doing, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the removal of sins… There are several of these scriptures.
This is very true. In faith as well as in normal life emphasis and mental illness are there so we need to be careful and balanced about behaviours. The difficulty is our hearts express its deepest desires, which in Christ is following Him. We rely to a degree on the automatic responses that is created in our walk, and interventions by the Holy Spirit to encourage, convict and guide.
Mental illness is normally irrational and out of context issues, which we try and justify. So bouts of euphoria or depression with no trigger, feelings of being persecuted or paranoia, reactions based on the smallest of triggers expanded to be the most important thing from the evilest of people. When you are faced with these exaggerated responses you get to recognise them.
This may well be true, but there is far to much detail here for a simple forum discussion.
It is probably best to put forward ones own position and reasons to encourage others to identify with it.
God bless you.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
That is the point....I think you know that....a discussion. A discussion about the abundance of beliefs when salvation is short and sweet. I do intent to start a thread. Thank you
Huh? My comments in that post have nothing whatsoever to do with Catholic doctrine regarding the Eucharist.
Meanwhile, back in the real world … Ask a thousand (non-Catholic) pastors for their interpretation of the NT, and you will get a thousand different answers. That’s why there are thousands of different (non-Catholic) churches and denominations.
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