Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Adam is called "the son of God" in the Gospels. Luke 3:38. -- from the moment of his creation.

But if Adam was never lost - then he never needed salvation, never needed a Savior.

I believe once a son always a son.
We know that Father had prepared the Lamb before the creation of the world or Adam. So He knew the outcome...even set up the outcome. So that the creation that He made could have the choice of Loving Him freely. Love has always been the choice.

We are not talking about "what God knew" we are talking about "once a son always a son" - The Bible says Adam was created as a son of God.

If Adam was never lost - then no Savior for Adam, no Gospel for Adam.

Adam sinned.
"The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 ... the second death ... the lake of fire in Revelation 20.

There is no such thing as "being created with deception in him" -- rather God created Adam perfect and also Eve was created perfect - a daughter of God.

Both sinned.
Both fell
Both needed a Savior for the forgiveness of sin.

There is no such thing as a sinner ,,, not forgiven ,, not going to the "second death" lake of fire of Rev 20. All have sinned. They are judged "according to their deeds" in Revelation 20, according to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

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Below is one of many passages that proves OSAS or eternal security.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You see, when a saved person dies his body goes to the ground to await resurrection on the last day, but in his spirit essence he goes to be with the Lord (in heaven). In contrast, when an unsaved person dies, both his body and soul goes to the ground to await judgment on the last day. Words in parenthesis are mine.

Food for thought.

To God Be The Glory

1 Cor 15 refutes that idea.
2 Cor 5:1-10 also refutes it.
 
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Taken

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Also, most people that believe in once
and who are we to judge and say, "that person was never saved in the first place?"


A person who is openly speaking Against God Is not a person who Has Been Saved!

The bottom line is, if you turn your back on God, you will not enter the gates of heaven....

The fact is men are naturally born against God.

The fact is God provides;
For His Word to be Heard, read, revealed throughout the World.

The fact is a man who chooses To hear, read Gods Word IS:
1) Being enlightened to Gods Truth
2) Receiving a Taste of Gods Power, by the man Receiving Measures of Faith from God.

It is a TASTE, a measure from God...not Fullness and not a commitment by the man.

The man can believe, continue, RECEIVE increased measures of Faith....or walk away, and be called having fallen from faith and LOSE His Offering to Receive Salvation.

It is Not a man having RECEIVE Salvation and Then Losing Salvation.

Is is a man having Received measures of enlightenment/ Gods Truth, and Gods measures of Faith...and the man Choosing to Reject Gods Truth and Reject Gods measure of Faith. He was not Saved, and Absolutely can speak against God.
That man Rejected God and Absolutely does stand Against God.

And that is in total contrast to a man Who accepts the Lords Salvation and Receives FOREVER the Lords INDWELLING Spirit and by Gods internal power that man Can Never Again Deny God or Stand Against God.

We can not know a mans heart...but we can know what a man stands for, by what the man says and does.

A Saved man has the Power of God Within the man. That man Lives In Christ. Christ does not stand Against Himself...nor can a man IN Christ express being Against God.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Taken

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BobRyan said:
Adam is called "the son of God" in the Gospels. Luke 3:38. --

Yes.

from the moment of his creation.

That is your addition to Scripture.

But if Adam was never lost - then he never needed salvation, never needed a Savior.
Who said Adam was not lost?

We are not talking about "what God knew" we are talking about "once a son always a son" -

And who said, anything to the contrary?

The Bible says Adam was created as a son of God.

I have never SEEN where Scripture says that.
Scripture says OUTSIDE of the Garden, God created a man from Dust of the Earth, and called that man ADAM, and put that man IN the Garden.

If Adam was never lost - then no Savior for Adam, no Gospel for Adam.

You seem to be arguing for the point Adam was lost. Who said anything about Adam being lost or not ?

Adam sinned.
"The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 ... the second death ... the lake of fire in Revelation 20.

Who said otherwise?

There is no such thing as "being created with deception in him" -- rather God created Adam perfect and also Eve was created perfect -

Who said Adam was created WITH deception IN HIM?
Scripture is pretty clear, mankind was created with the ability to MAKE choices.
Scripture is pretty clear, mankind makes Choices
Scripture is pretty clear, mankind does NOT always make choices according to Gods word.

Adam didn't, Eve didn't.

Scripture reveals God HAS SEEDS, and God GIVES to Every Seed a BODY, that He creates and that pleases Him.
1 15 :38

I do not recall reading all or any Bodies are created Perfect.

Both sinned.
Both fell
Both needed a Savior for the forgiveness of sin.

Did someone say anything to the contrary?

There is no such thing as a sinner ,,, not forgiven ,, not going to the "second death" lake of fire of Rev 20.

No clue what you are trying to convey.

All have sinned.

Yes.

They are judged "according to their deeds" in Revelation 20, according to the Bible.

Men are acknowledged and rewarded for "deeds/works" they have done to glorify God.
And all "deeds/works" that have not glorified God shall be burned.

However the Judgement is more about finalizing the separation of men WHO have become Forgiven and Converted IN Christ; from those who have NOT become Forgiven and Converted IN Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Taken

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We are not only cock-sure, i say, but even wish that we were absent from the body and present with the Lord...

Personally I do not find trusting that Gods word IS True and Faithful, as being cocky or arrogant.

And I am in no hurry to Stop telling others of the Lords Truth.....which is the case when a human body dies...and the soul becomes absent from the body.

Paul had a whole different set of circumstances when he made that comment.
He was physically persecuted for promoting the word of God. I am not.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Adam is called "the son of God" in the Gospels. Luke 3:38. -- from the moment of his creation.

But if Adam was never lost - then he never needed salvation, never needed a Savior.

I believe once a son always a son.
We know that Father had prepared the Lamb before the creation of the world or Adam. So He knew the outcome...even set up the outcome. So that the creation that He made could have the choice of Loving Him freely. Love has always been the choice.

We are not talking about "what God knew" we are talking about "once a son always a son" - The Bible says Adam was created as a son of God.

If Adam was never lost - then no Savior for Adam, no Gospel for Adam.

Adam sinned.
"The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 ... the second death ... the lake of fire in Revelation 20.

There is no such thing as "being created with deception in him" -- rather God created Adam perfect and also Eve was created perfect - a daughter of God.

Both sinned.
Both fell
Both needed a Savior for the forgiveness of sin.


There is no such thing as a sinner ,,, not forgiven ,, not going to the "second death" lake of fire of Rev 20.
All have sinned. Rom 6:23
Rev 20:13 They are judged "according to their deeds" in Revelation 20, according to the Bible.

Yes.
That is your addition to Scripture.

I find your logic illusive just then
 

Enoch111

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Adam is called "the son of God" in the Gospels. Luke 3:38. -- from the moment of his creation.
As applied to Adam "son of God" simply means direct creation of God, since no human mother was involved.

As applied to angels "sons of God" also means direct creations of God, since no mothers were involved.

As applied to Jesus "Son of God" means "the only begotten (or uniquely begotten) Son of God, which means an intimate and perfect Father-Son relationship within the Godhead. Jesus was NOT created but is the Creator.
 
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BobRyan

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As applied to Adam "son of God" simply means direct creation of God, since no human mother was involved.

True. But I was posting that in response to the "once a son always a son" language and "can't be un-son-ed" language.

God did not say to Adam "I have to unson you before you can be lost and in need of salvation" did He?

So it was "back-to-the-topic" in scope - I was not talking about God the Son type language being applied to Adam.
 

Taken

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As applied to Adam "son of God" simply means direct creation of God, since no human mother was involved.

As applied to angels "sons of God" also means direct creations of God, since no mothers were involved.

As applied to Jesus "Son of God" means "the only begotten (or uniquely begotten) Son of God, which means an intimate and perfect Father-Son relationship within the Godhead. Jesus was NOT created but is the Creator.

A rather indepth study, however "son of God", (aside from that "title being given angels"), also appears to be a title bestowed upon men WHO, are believers and faithful to God.

Jesus' earthly fulfillment of the LAW, included "fulfillment" of mans Law. What men? All, both Jews and Gentiles, whose LEGAL descendship differed. Jews primarily considered BLOOD LINE relationship, (typically via the female), while Gentiles considered the Direct father/son relationship, obviously the Male.

The importance to satisfy BOTH, (religious and Legal Laws), is because, Jesus' future Kingdom ON Earth shall Include a blending of both Jews and Gentiles, that He be their King.

The "genealogy" from Adam to Jesus, reveals a direct prepared line of "holy" persons.
"Prepared" being, "converted and transformed" men, thus included to become adopted "sons of God".

..."sons of God" who (are humans), are men who have Accepted thee Heavenly God and His being their "Holy Father".

God Bless,
Taken
 

Triumph1300

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Most people never give this a thought.

But according to scripture, Isaiah 14:12-15, Satan lived in heaven as a perfect angel with God and then became jealous of God and was cast out of heaven to this earth.

He then will eventually be cast into the lake of fire according to Revelation 20:10, and will be lost for eternity.

So my question is, what gives us, mere mortal, sinful man the right to think that our salvation is eternally secure and that there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation and be lost, when one of God's Holy angels, who rebelled against God, will be lost?

Something to seriously think about.
 
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Enoch111

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So my question is, what gives us, mere mortal, sinful man the right to think that our salvation is eternally secure and that there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation and be lost, when one of God's Holy angels, who rebelled against God, will be lost?
1. God never planned for the redemption of evil angels. Indeed Hell -- the Lake of Fire -- was created for "the devil and his angels". God knew that none of them would repent of their sins and evil deeds. Indeed those who sinned before the Flood and corrupted humanity are now chained in Tartarus, awaiting their final consignment into the Lake of Fire.

2. God planned for the redemption of humanity before He created this earth. God made mankind "a little lower than the angels" but chose to have fellowship with human beings who would put their faith in Him and on the Lord Jesus Christ.

3. The eternal security of the believer has nothing to do with his or her sinfulness and mortality, but it has everything to do with the absolute perfection of Christ and His finished work of redemption. God's salvation is perfect, and those He saves He will also ultimately glorify.

ROMANS 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
 
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Taken

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Most people never give this a thought.

But according to scripture, Isaiah 14:12-15, Satan lived in heaven as a perfect angel with God and then became jealous of God and was cast out of heaven to this earth.

Not so sure it was Satan's jealousy...as it was his own "arrogance" of the Gifts he was "given" via God.
...his Gift of "great power", "beauty", "talent and abilities"....

Seemingly satan Overlooked, those were gifts... and although Great Gifts, they WERE LIMITED.

Satan THOUGHT in his HEART he could Rise Above God...."not even a Verbal announcement!!!" But rather a THOUGHT in his heart! He could "rise Above God"? God forbid! God does not DEPLETE Himself of His Supreme Power....regardless of How much power He gifts to one of His created creations.

He then will eventually be cast into the lake of fire according to Revelation 20:10, and will be lost for eternity.

Agree. An angels First fall is from its First estate, ie heaven, to Earth, and Secondly shall be a Fall to Hell, eventually separated from God forever.

So my question is, what gives us, mere mortal, sinful man the right to think that our salvation is eternally secure and that there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation and be lost, when one of God's Holy angels, who rebelled against God, will be lost?

A mere mortal, sinful man IS ONE thing.
A Converted man is no longer a mere mortal man....
...his sin against God is forgiven
...his sin is covered by Gods indwelling Light.
...his sin is remembered no more.
...his body is spiritually Dead
...his bodily life is continued IN Christ's risen body.
...his living soul is Restored.
...his natural spirit is Quickened to an everlasting spiritual spirit, via Gods seed.
...the Power of God Indwells IN the man and forever keeps the man SEALED unto the Lord.

Why does a Converted man Believe the Lords Offering of Salvation has Come TO THEM?

Because they TRUST TO BELIEVE the Word of God is TRUE.

Why does a Converted man Believe the Lords Offering of Salvation GIVEN AND RECEIVED unto a man is FOREVER?

Because a Converted man Believes the Lords Word IS True.

WHY does a Converted man BELIEVE the Lords OFFERING of Salvation Given and Received IS FOREVER?

Because, A Converted man HAS DIRECT access to Gods UNDERSTANDING, and SOME actually take advantage of the offering of the GIft of Gods Understanding....and SEEK and receive Gods Understanding....and TRUST it IS TRUE.

Note what IS MISSING....
Human intercessories, Human philosophies, ie 3rd party Humans!

The WORLD SEES mere Humans.
Conversions are VIA The Lord, and NOT SEEN by mere humans.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Taken

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1. God never planned for the redemption of evil angels. Indeed Hell -- the Lake of Fire -- was created for "the devil and his angels". God knew that none of them would repent of their sins and evil deeds. Indeed those who sinned before the Flood and corrupted humanity are now chained in Tartarus, awaiting their final consignment into the Lake of Fire.

Correct ~ agree.

2. God planned for the redemption of humanity before He created this earth. God made mankind "a little lower than the angels" but chose to have fellowship with human beings who would put their faith in Him and on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Correct ~ agree

3. The eternal security of the believer has nothing to do with his or her sinfulness and mortality, but it has everything to do with the absolute perfection of Christ and His finished work of redemption. God's salvation is perfect, and those He saves He will also ultimately glorify.

Somewhat disagree.

Initially, ALL men are born in SIN, separated from God...and thus in that respect; SIN is an issue that God Must Forgive, Before a Conversion.

Thereafter...."sin" of the man IS Covered with the Lords Light (light overcomes darkness).
The Lord ... ie the Light indwelling in a man can not be INVADED by darkness, (ie corrupt thee Light of the Lord).
Thus...via the Lord, the man has overcome, sin is forgiven, covered, overcome, remembered no more, and unable to be AGAIN commited by the man. 1 John 3:9.

Then the part of your quote Number 3, is Valid. Ie Sin has already be dealt with, during a mans Conversion, and no longer an issue.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Triumph1300

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I am posting this for the interesting readers who are following this thread.

-----------------------------------------------

What Does It Mean For The
Christian To Leave His "First Love"?
-----------------------------------------------

"Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy FIRST LOVE.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent,
and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."
(Revelation 2:4)


For the Christian to leave his first love, is to backslide,
to fall away, to leave the Lord and His service,
and to go over to the service of sin, Satan and the world.

The Lord calls upon all such to repent and do their first works (the fruits of love), or else - else what?
"I will take thy candlestick out of his place."

This is an ultimatum from the Lord.
If the sinner responds, repents, returns to his first love,
and does his first works, all is well and good - he will be saved.
But it is his to choose.
If he does not do this, his light is removed, goes out, and the backslider is lost.
 

Helen

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Sorry @Triumph1300 you know that I have to disagree. :p

Everything you have written in that #3376 I see and read as losing their ' first born' inheritance and their 'high calling' in Christ...NOT in losing salvation.
Their 'salt' lost it's savour....their light went out...just like the five foolish virgins...which were still virgins...and still were able to go and find oil...but the door was shut...

So my dear friend...we will just continue to disagree. x
 
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Taken

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I am posting this for the interesting readers who are following this thread.

-----------------------------------------------

What Does It Mean For The
Christian To Leave His "First Love"?
-----------------------------------------------

"Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy FIRST LOVE.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent,
and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."
(Revelation 2:4)


For the Christian to leave his first love, is to backslide,
to fall away, to leave the Lord and His service,
and to go over to the service of sin, Satan and the world.

The Lord calls upon all such to repent and do their first works (the fruits of love), or else - else what?
"I will take thy candlestick out of his place."

This is an ultimatum from the Lord.
If the sinner responds, repents, returns to his first love,
and does his first works, all is well and good - he will be saved.
But it is his to choose.
If he does not do this, his light is removed, goes out, and the backslider is lost.

You seem to Still Not get the Magnitude of a Conversion....The Indwelling POWER of God Keeps a man In Faith- FULLNESS....FOREVER!

You speak of a "Christian" "Backslider" turning Away from God.

Yet "you" never define a Christian.

Anyone following Jesus' teachings can be called a Christian...and STOP following Jesus' teachings and Belief In God, In Christ...

However A Converted man, "BEING Converted and called a Saved and Born Again Christian, a Converted Christian, a Messianic Jew, a man IN Christ" Can NEVER AGAIN Reject God/Christ.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Triumph1300

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Listen, Taken.
You got your opinion, I got mine.
No use for discussion anymore.
I'm posting for others who might be interested in reading.
I'm not discussing with you, I'm done with that, I said that before.