Once Saved Always Saved

[Ferris Bueller]

You keep saying that this verb tense changes whether we're talking about it having happened at all. Not so, that's a misdirection, or your misunderstanding.

Nope, didn't say that. The Perfect tense is a completed action. The difference between a Perfect tense completed action and a simple Aorist tense completed action is the Perfect tense action has results continuing up to the present.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The action having been done . . . ignore for the moment whether we are saying it may be undone or not . . . this continues to be your "OSAS" red herring, so put that aside . .

No. That is not the argument. All actions of any tense remain historical facts. What can change in regard to the Perfect tense action is the result of the action and whether or not it will always continue up to the present. The result of being made a partaker of Christ continues up to the present IF you hold firm your original confidence. The historical fact that you were made a partaker of Christ does not get erased from history. What may change is if you have the results of that historical completed action up to the present. You have to keep believing for that to happen.

 

[marks]

Nope, didn't say that. The Perfect tense is a completed action. The difference between a Perfect tense completed action and a simple Aorist tense completed action is the Perfect tense action has results continuing up to the present.

You keep diverting away from this.

The action happened if the following clause is true. The action did not happen if the following clause is not true.

You have become a partaker of Christ if you hold your confidence stedfast to the end. If you don't, you hadn't.

It' a simple construction. You can see it before digging into the syntax, but when you do, it only supports it.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith, @Blood Bought 1953

Concerning Romans 10:13...

One ought to realize that it is a given that whoever calls the name of the LORD is a believer and have faith in the LORD.

It is not as though that the passage could apply to the unbeliever. That would be foolish to think like so, I should say. And even if there are unbelievers who calls the name of the LORD for whatever reason they call, I don’t think they will be saved, unless they believe in God and in Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2759

When the verse is paraphrased as "Whoever asks to be saved, will be saved" the paraphrase in question implies that a man can come to God apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

Tell me, how does one who is in a state of death, being dead to God, do anything pertaining to the things of the Spirit of God?

God enables him with his drawing power.

God enabling him to make a decision to either receive or reject Christ, does not guarantee that the person will receive Christ, is what I am saying. The person must volitionally receive Him in order to be saved.

Otherwise, if you once felt you were drawn to Christ, you were saved; even though you may have rejected Him.

That is heresy.

Regarding John 1:12, I also have already shown you the misuse of that verse.

No, you have not.

So I ask again, who are the “them” that believe, according to John? Tell us please.

Answer me this, and I will also answer you: what comes first according to John 1:12? Receiving and believing; or becoming a child of God?

And being intentionally careless to present the truth just because we want to avoid any man made rules, I think is not at all commendable nor encouraged. We are to please God rather than men. I know you will agree with me on that.

It is not a matter of being a "man-pleaser" since the rules of the boards have consequences. If you violate them, your posts can be deleted or you can be banned from posting.

The judgment you'll receive is for being a pretender,

I am no pretender; but in saying that I am, you have three fingers pointing back at you (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42)

Your day is coming.

Yes; but not in the way that you think. I will be receiving a good reward for my labour.

As for you, your day is coming in the same way that you think that my day is coming.

For you are one of those that the Lord spoke about in Jude 1:3-4.

And until you realize that this can't keep you saved, you'll just keep Trolling the Forum.

You are the forum troll here, @Behold.

See, you are defined by what you believe, and if you believe wrong, you are wrong.

Indeed; so, when you purport the damnable heresy that believers do not have indwelling sin, you are wrong. You are even deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you, according to 1 John 1:8.

So, the people who harass me on Forums, have deep issues with God's Grace.
These dark lights think that God's Grace is "License to Sin".

It is not that God's grace is a license to sin in our view; for we do not teach it as such.

It is that there are those, whose condemnation was marked out long ago, who teach the grace of God as though it were a license for immorality (Jude 1:3-4, NIV).

They teach that grace means you can do whatever you want, even if what you want to do is to indulge the flesh.

The truth of the matter is that those who are truly born again do not walk according to the flesh (Romans 8:1 (kjv), Romans 8:4)

The only reason any one of us is BLAMELESS< is the same reason we are sinless,

No one is sinless except for Jesus; and the fact that you say that you are means that you are deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you (1 John 1:8).

'behold, im keeping myself saved by my FAITH and my LIFESTYLE".

No, you're not.
You are kept SAVED by the same BLOOD that saved you, or, you are hell bound thinking you are not.

If anyone is kept saved by the blood, then they continue to be sanctified by the blood (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleansed from all sin by it (1 John 1:7).

That means that they will continue in God's goodness (which means practically being obedient to Him). if anyone doesn't continue in His goodness, he will be "cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).

I’m better off getting me a pack of these and be a “self life-saver” than continuing to discuss this issue with you. I’ll keep them for myself!

Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

But before you go, lets find out if you are a legalist, and a heretic.
Ready?
You'll know instantly.
Here is how.

Do you believe that you can lose your salvation?

If so, you are one of those.

Clearly, Jesus and Paul taught that a man can lose his salvation.

In Luke 8:13, Jesus speaks of people who "believe for a while" (are saved according to the previous verse and Ephesians 2:8-9) and in time of temptation fall away.

In Romans 11:20-22, Paul speaks of those who "stand by faith" and declares that if they do not continue in God's goodness (which means to stay obedient to the leadings and promptings of the Holy Spirit), they will be "cut off".

A true heretic teaches contrary to biblical doctrines.

Amen; and that is @Behold.

And he is the one who most often defines others as being heretic without any biblical basis for saying so; thus he makes it clear that the principle in Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42 is a universal principle.

hmm, let's see: "IF I Continue believing, I WILL BE SAVED!"
How is this claiming "what I did," not "by MY OWN merit"?:

By that logic,

How is believing in the first place not what I did, by my own merit?

Eternal Life Is BY HIS GRACE {UNmerited FAVOR!},
upon our ONE-TIME humble submission To HIM, in faith, Correct?:

Incorrect.

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2); and therefore, if we lose or throw away faith, we no longer have access to grace. And since we are saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), if we lose access to grace, we are no longer saved.

I will say this, however.

That those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) have been sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) and therefore have an everlasting faith.

While those with a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith (mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel) can fall away (Luke 8:13) or be "cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).

Those who have an everlasting faith have everlasting life (John 6:47); which is life that can never come to an end; otherwise it would have been defined as temporal.

 

[marks]

No. That is not the argument. All actions of any tense remain historical facts. What can change in regard to the Perfect tense action is the result of the action and whether or not it will always continue up to the present. The result of being made a partaker of Christ continues up to the present IF you hold firm your original confidence. The historical fact that you were made a partaker of Christ does not get erased from history. What may change is if you have the results of that historical completed action up to the present. You have to keep believing for that to happen.

The point being, the action either did or did not occur. And what shows whether it did or did not occur is the following conditional statement. NOT whether it continues, though you can see that in the verb. The passage itself is whether or not that action occurred.

You have become a partaker IF . . .

It does not say, for example, You remain a partaker if . . . Though apparently that would be more useful to your doctrine.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The historical fact that you were made a partaker of Christ does not get erased from history.

The historical fact that you were made a partaker of Christ, never actually happened, if you are one of those who falls away.

Just read the verse as written.

OH, I was supposed to be moving on.

Colossians 3 . . . You shall appear with Him in glory.

Nothing there about it ending or going away either.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

hmm, let's see: "IF I Continue believing, I WILL BE SAVED!"
How is this claiming "what I did," not "by MY OWN merit"?:

Don't you know that the Bible says your 'believing' is not a work of self righteous merit? Why do people think the works gospel is defined by you doing anything at all, even believing, in order to earn salvation? How did it get this bad in the church?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You keep diverting away from this.

The action happened if the following clause is true. The action did not happen if the following clause is not true.

You have become a partaker of Christ if you hold your confidence stedfast to the end. If you don't, you hadn't.

It' a simple construction. You can see it before digging into the syntax, but when you do, it only supports it.

Much love!

You're still doing it. You're misinterpreting the Perfect tense verb action 'being made a partaker of Christ' as an Aorist tense simple action. Your whole problem seems to center around not understanding that, for the sake of the argument being made, the action of being made a partaker of Christ is done, completed, finished in this verse. Not 'maybe' completed. Because it's a Perfect tense verb the presence of the result of the completed action is what is determined by the 'if' statement, not the completion of the action itself.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The point being, the action either did or did not occur. And what shows whether it did or did not occur is the following conditional statement. NOT whether it continues

Then you don't understand what the Perfect tense of a verb is. Just Google it.

 

[marks]

understanding that the action of being made a partaker of Christ is done, completed, finished in this verse. Not 'maybe' completed.

It's amazing to me you can write this, and go on to give your conclusions as they are.

Is done, competed, finished yes! IF . . . well, you know the rest.

IF . . .

Much love!

Seriously though . . . or maybe you just don't want to . . .

"You shall appear with Him in glory." You shall. Rather bold statement, wouldn't you say?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Then you don't understand what the Perfect tense of a verb is. Just Google it.

Um . . . talking about the conditional statement.

You seem to REALLY not want to address that!

Makes one wonder!

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It does not say, for example, You remain a partaker if . . . Though apparently that would be more useful to your doctrine.

It says the result of the completed, finished, historical action of being made a partaker of Christ presently exists (that's what the Perfect tense of the action means-Google it) IF you continue to believe.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Um . . . talking about the conditional statement.

You seem to REALLY not want to address that!

Makes one wonder!

Much love!

I'm not ignoring the conditional. You're changing what is conditional! The RESULT of the action is conditional, not the historical fact that the action happened.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The historical fact that you were made a partaker of Christ, never actually happened, if you are one of those who falls away.

No, the Perfect tense verb means the results of being made a partaker of Christ are what may or may not continue, not the action itself-that's already done, and the results continuing is based on whether or not you satisfy the 'if' condition of the verse. The action itself is done, finished, completed. Now the question is if the results continue up to the present and that depends on 'if' you are still believing.

 

[marks]

Romans 8:9-11 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

If He does . . . then He shall.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm not ignoring the conditional. You're changing what is conditional! The RESULT of the action is conditional, not the historical fact that the action happened.

But not when you read the verse.

And let's face facts . . .

If it were as you say, this would not be true in every case:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

OR this . . .

Romans 8:11 KJV
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

If the Spirit dwell in you (present active), he shall also (future active) quicken your mortal bodies.

If the Spirit dwell in you now, He shall also quicken your mortal bodies, future.

Not true in every case if you lose your salvation for any reason.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If the Spirit dwell in you (present active), he shall also (future active) quicken your mortal bodies.

If the Spirit dwell in you now, He shall also quicken your mortal bodies, future.

Who's questioning that the promise is for people who have the Holy Spirit in them? Of course people who have the the Holy Spirit in them are saved and are going to be raised immortal! What's in question is if you're going to continue to believe and as a result continue to have the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's amazing to me you can write this, and go on to give your conclusions as they are.

Is done, competed, finished yes! IF . . . well, you know the rest.

IF . . .

That's right....IF.
If you keep believing. Even the original Osas teaching taught this. It just taught that the real believer always will continue to believe.

Seriously though . . . or maybe you just don't want to . . .

"You shall appear with Him in glory." You shall. Rather bold statement, wouldn't you say?

It's very bold, but it's a promise for those who continue to believe to the very end. Even the original Osas taught this. The original Osas just thought that your continued believing is a given provided you really are a true believer.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Um . . . talking about the conditional statement.

You seem to REALLY not want to address that!

Makes one wonder!

Much love!

I did address it. What I resist is you changing what is conditional, because the Perfect tense resists you changing the conditional.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If it were as you say, this would not be true in every case:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

OR this . . .

Romans 8:11 KJV
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It's true in every case.....every case where the Holy Spirit continues to dwell because of one's continued believing.