Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Michiah-Imla]

What do you mean......SHALL ENDURE unto the end?

Those were Jesus’ words. What the Lord is saying is, he that shall endure faithful to Him, in his teachings, and endures his chastening through trials in his lifetime, shall be saved.

“Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you” (1 Peter 4:12)

“If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons…” (Hebrews 12:7)

Define what....Endure means?

To continue in the same state without perishing; to last; to remain

To remain firm, as under trial or suffering; to suffer patiently or without yielding; to bear up under adversity; to hold out.

Explain WHO exactly is Enduring...

He who has ears to hear.

What end? End of what exactly?

End of the individual’s lifetime, or the end when Christ comes. Whichever comes first.

 

[ScottA]

We war against sin until we are glorified and the flesh is dead!

How is the flesh not dead if we have died to self, and it is no longer we who live but Christ who lives in us--in that flesh that was dead already? (Rhetorical)

Do you see how many misunderstanding are in that one sentence? You apparently believe and are acting as if the flesh that is dead walking from birth is not dead...and therefore have the wrong outlook on many other biblical factors.

 

[Taken]

Those were Jesus’ words. What the Lord is saying is, he that shall endure faithful to Him, in his teachings, and endures his chastening through trials in his lifetime, shall be saved.

“Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you” (1 Peter 4:12)

“If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons…” (Hebrews 12:7)

So, you are waiting for your fiery trial?
And when is that going to happen for you?

To continue in the same state without perishing; to last; to remain.
To remain firm, as under trial or suffering; to suffer patiently or without yielding; to bear up under adversity; to hold out.

Thank you...what same state do you mean? Remain firm in what?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

So, you are waiting for your fiery trial?
And when is that going to happen for you?

Peter gave us bad advice?

 

[Taken]

Peter gave us bad advice?

How does asking you if you are waiting for your fiery trial, and when that might happen for you.....Compute in your mind that I am in any way, shape or form speaking of Peter or his advice?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@Taken

Let’s try it this way:

When you read this passage:

“Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you” (1 Peter 4:12)

How does it affect you?

For me it’s telling me to not be surprised when fiery trials come my way. It prepares me to endure those trials.

 

[Taken]

@Taken

Let’s try it this way:

When you read this passage:

“Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you” (1 Peter 4:12)

How does it affect you?

For me it’s telling me to not be surprised when fiery trials come my way. It prepares me to endure those trials.

I asked you...what endure means specifically...
~ It’s a warning to BELIEVE, by your own will-power In the Lord God, until the end of your natural life......
~ The gift for THAT ^? You shall be Saved.
~ A Warning...IF YOU DO NOT continue...ENDURE BELIEVING to the end of your natural life...You will not receive Gods Gift of Salvation.

Endure, Keep, Continue......WHAT......Believing.
Until WHEN.....................................The end of your natural life.
WHY...............................................You will BE SAVED....THEN.
WARNING.........WHY? Because you are KEEPING IN BELIEF, by your own WILLPOWER.
So?
Remember that thingy...powerful evil spirits roaming the earth?
Remember that thingy...powerful kings oppressing people?
Get it?
Powers greater than you, have cunning devices to trick you into following THEM, believing in THEM, rather than God.

I do NOT “endure” to my end.
Which is to say “I” don’t BY MY WILLPOWER, Keep in Belief, by MY WILLPOWER....

I agree with Scripture....powerful evil spirits and powerful wicked men DO have more Power than me. I opted to NOT make myself caught off guard, tricked by an evil spirit or wicked man and INSTEAD accepted the CHOICE Jesus Offered....THAT HE would PUT HIS POWER “IN” ME, and DO THE KEEPING OF MY BELIEF....FOR me, by His Power.

And the FIRERY TEST? Already Been TESTED....WHEN, I freely chose to CONFESS my Belief to the Lord, IN God and IN Christ Jesus....and gave Him my Bodily LIFE......DEAD......Crucified with Jesus.
And......His Test of Fire IS part of His Holy Baptism.

Matt 3:
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

My body was already given...dead...expressly freely given to the Lord God.

My confession was Made, My confession Tested it be True, My soul restored, (saved), my spirit born of Gods Seed, (born again), my body taken, washed, covered (with His Light), sanctified, justified, prepared....to be Lifted UP off the face of the earth, BEFORE Gods SENDS DOWN His Wrath upon the WHOLE earth.

I did the Will of the Father....and in no way, shape or from subject to be ON EARTH and suffer His Anger and Wrath upon the unrighteous.....and those unrighteous making their decisions to CONFESS their belief, and mortally DIE for their belief, and then BE SAVED.

 

[Gregory]

1) You saying that Jesus Himself changed his doctrine from "being baptized" to "no baptism is necessary"?
You need to give me scripture where Jesus made this change himself. Thank you.

2) You say that in Acts there was a time when the Holy Ghost was received after a person was baptized in water?
In Acts 2, Peter set out the model for someone who wanted to be a member of the church what they should do after they believe in Jesus.
Repent and be baptized and then receive the Holy Ghost. This is the most clearly stated doctrine in the book of Acts.

In Acts 6, Paul received the Holy Ghost and then received baptism, this is after he believed. So a little different than the model that Peter set out for us. I will tell you what I think about this after we talk about Cornelius in chapter 10.

In Acts 9, Peter raised Dorcas from the dead and all of Jappa turned to the Lord. But no mention of baptism or the Holy Ghost after they believed and turned to the Lord. Did they not have to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost or was it just not recorded in the bible?

In Acts 10, Peter went to the house of Cornelius and when he entered the room he knew that the Holy Spirit was upon them. He taught them and then baptized the whole family. The first gentiles baptized in the name of Jesus and became members of the church.
I believe that like Paul the Holy Ghost can fall on who he will to witness that Jesus is the Christ. However, it is of a temporary nature until the person believes, repents, and is baptized, and then the gift of the Holy Ghost is given to the person as a more permanent part of their nature now that they are baptized and washed clean.

I will continue through Acts in a second post. It is interesting.

second post of Acts.
In Acts 11, Barnabas preached at Antioch, and much people were added to the church. No talk of repentance, baptism, or Holy Ghost. Is it because by this time it was unnecessary to be baptized to get the Holy Ghost, or was it just not recorded in the bible. Not needed to be recorded again because Peter has already given the model so directly in Acts 2. Can was assume then that if a person believed one of the Apostles that they were taught to repent and then be baptized and then they could receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

In Acts 13, here is a twist on new membership. vs.48, And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Now this makes it sound like they were ordained to eternal life and then believed. Not sure about this rendition??????

In Acts 15, is the conference for what new members must do. In vs 20, James only mentions that they have to abstain from idols, from fornication and things strangled and from blood. Is this now a new doctrine? James says nothing of believing or repenting or baptism or receiving the Holy Ghost. (see vs. 29 also). I really hope you do not believe because of this debate that Jesus changed his doctrine from believing, repentance, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost, to just abstaining from idols, from fornication, from things strangled and from blood.

In Acts 16:3, interestingly enough Paul circumcised Timotheus, no talk of baptism or Holy Ghost.
In 16:15, Paul baptized Lydia and her household. Talks about baptism, but no Holy Ghost.
In 16:33, prison guard was baptized, but no discussion of the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 17:4, Paul preached in Thessalonica and many believed but it does not say anything about they were baptized or received the Holy Ghost.
In Acts 17:10, Paul preaches in Berea, many believed and searched the scriptures daily. No talk of baptism or receiving the Holy Ghost.
In Acts 17: 34 Paul preaches in Athens, but no talk of baptism or Holy Ghost.

In Acts 18:8. Paul preaches to Crispus and many Corinthians believed and were baptized , but no talk of the Holy Ghost.
In Acts 18:24, Apollos preaches the gospel and convinced many. No talk of baptism or of receiving the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 19:2-7. Paul met people who had been baptized, but they knew nothing of receiving the Holy Ghost. So Paul rebaptized them in the name of Jesus and then Paul laid his hands on their heads and they received the Holy Ghost. Very similar to what Peter did in the beginning of Acts.

So as you can see, the model was holding up all the way through Acts. And as you can see there was a great deal that was not recorded that we can assume the other believers went through the same process, although not recorded.

From Acts 20 to Acts 28 there is no reference to preaching and baptizing as Paul was imprisoned and sent to Rome. But his last act as a preacher and baptizer was to find believers and baptize them and lay his hands on them that they would receive the Holy Ghost. So the debate did not change the doctrine.

Especially look at Acts 2:38, Acts 8:14-17, and Acts 19:2-7 for the real story of receiving the Holy Ghost and baptism.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

And the FIRERY TEST? Already Been TESTED....WHEN, I freely chose to CONFESS my Belief to the Lord

Your weird theology makes Peter’s advice of none effect to you. I wonder how many other scriptures are made void by your weird theology.

“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” (Mark 7:13)

 

[Gregory]

My invitation will be there...all the Judgement due me was put on the Cross

Do you forgive all those that have trespassed against you?

 

[Behold]

It’s not a “work in progress”.
God tells you to BE perfect.
You cannot BE something that cannot be obtained at the time of the instruction.

The righteousness of God is Perfect.
Becoming "One with God" is perfect.
Being a born again spirit, is perfect.

So, a born again person's SPIRIT< is "ONE WITH GOD"......and has "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

So, that is Spiritual Perfection, that is the STATUS of every born again believer's SPIRIT.

What isn't perfect, = is what isn't born again..
That is your body and your mind.
Your body is going to the dirt, and we are told to RENEW our MINDS, as they have to be...or they will stay carnal.
God give you a born again Spirit, and a new "heart".
He also gave you a renewed conscience.
He does not renew your mind for you...as we are to do that... Romans 12:2

 

[L.A.M.B.]

How is the flesh not dead if we have died to self, and it is no longer we who live but Christ who lives in us--in that flesh that was dead already? (Rhetorical)

Do you see how many misunderstanding are in that one sentence? You apparently believe and are acting as if the flesh that is dead walking from birth is not dead...and therefore have the wrong outlook on many other biblical factors.

Sir, would YOU like to tell me ALL the wrong outlooks I have on the MANY BIBICAL FACTORS?
I would like it in a concise list of my wrongness and the proper outlook as ordained by God !

Thank you !

 

[Taken]

Your weird theology makes Peter’s advice of none effect to you.

Correct. Advice heard, advice taken, advice accomplished, does not require repeating.

I wonder how many other scriptures are made void by your weird theology.

Having already ACCOMPLISHED the Will of the Father, many Scriptures become void/inapplicable to me.

 

[Taken]

Once Saved, Always Saved?
OP ^

Yes.
Salvation is offered While a man is alive in his natural flesh.
All flesh of man IS appointed to die Once.

Heb 9:
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Salvation is (judged to be GIVEN or judged to be WITHHELD) After a mans natural flesh dies.

Once Salvation IS Given after Bodily Death, it is for Always and forever.
Once Salvation IS Withheld after Bodily Death, it is for Always and forever.

Silly men who preach, a death occurs, a man is judged saved and that same man can then can become unsaved.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Do you forgive all those that have trespassed against you?

Yes.....but I don’t ” have” to.......I am not under Law.....I don’t Forgive so that “ My” Sins are Forgiven” .....that would be Jesus ( Who was under the “Law”) preaching LAW.....” If you do not Forgive others , your Heavenly Father will not Forgive “ you!” .......

This side of the Cross in the Age Of Grace , we don’t forgive others because of a threat....the impetus for Forgiveness is seeing how since God Totally Forgave “ US” —- wretches that were were and are—- why should “ we “ not readily forgive others? I forgive because I “ want “ to and not because I “have” to....

 

[Behold]

Having already ACCOMPLISHED the Will of the Father, many Scriptures become void/inapplicable to me.

That is very true.
The GRACE of God has delivered us from the curse of the Law.
The letter killeth, but the Spirit of God giveth LIFE.
Christ came to redeem us from the curse of the law, not to keep us in it, pinned down under it, a slave to sin that is cause by the power/dominion of the law.
We are not under the law, but under Grace.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Having already ACCOMPLISHED the Will of the Father, many Scriptures become void/inapplicable to me

Many scriptures become void/inapplicable to you?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Your weird doctrine leaves you defective, lacking, doctrinally deficient, in error, and without full instruction in righteousness.

No wonder perfection is an impossibility with those of your persuasion.

 

[Taken]

That is very true.
The GRACE of God has delivered us from the curse of the Law.
The letter killeth, but the Spirit of God giveth LIFE.
Christ came to redeem us from the curse of the law, not to keep us in it, pinned down under it, a slave to sin that is cause by the power/dominion of the law.
We are not under the law, but under Grace.

Yes. Under His Grace and His Power IN us, who have already accomplished, in Truth and Love, laying down our Life For Him.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Many scriptures become void/inapplicable to you?

Correct.
I rise in the morning eat breakfast. It’s accomplished. I don’t foolish say, oh, I need to eat breakfast.

I do not get dressed, and then say, oh, I need to get dressed.

I laid down my Life for Christ Jesus, It accomplished. I don’t say, oh, I need to lay down my Life for Christ Jesus!

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Ofcourse. Not news. I am not the ONLY person on planet Earth!
There are liars, cheats, thieves, wicked men, men who do what Gods hates, men who know not about Jesus, men whose will is by all means to increase their wealth to the detriment of others, blah, blah, blah...

Then there are SOME MEN, who have heard and read the word of God, and found the Profit IN HIS DOCTRINE, Followed and Accomplished His INSTRUCTION for righteousness according to His ORDER and His WAY, and ALL the warnings and negative consequences FOR NOT BEING ACCOMPLISHED According to His Doctrine and His Instruction...BECOME MOOT!

Your weird doctrine leaves you defective, lacking, doctrinally deficient, in error, and without full instruction in righteousness.

You OBVIOUSLY are selective in your hearing.
I AM IN Christ, and HAVE Expressly SAID SO...any Student of Scripture should know, ALL the warnings and negative consequences ARE NOT APPLICABLE TO A PERSON “IN” Christ!

No wonder perfection is an impossibility with those of your persuasion.

Funny. I have NOT SEEN, many flat out claim they are “IN” Christ, particularly ones who come wagging their tongue with accusations to those who flat out declare they ARE IN Christ.

You still require the Warnings?
You still waiting until your body dies and hope God judges to save your soul?
Asked you questions, but you deflected, so not clue your standing.

 

[Behold]

Many scriptures become void/inapplicable to you?
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
Your weird doctrine leaves you defective, lacking, doctrinally deficient, in error, and without full instruction in righteousness.
No wonder perfection is an impossibility with those of your persuasion.

Im not informed regarding what church or denomination TAKEN is a part of...so...
Ive no idea the context of their theology, as related to their "church".
Do you know what it is??

But i can say this...
Spirituality and Discipleship being perfected by the word of God and the Spirit of God, is different than being under the Law of Moses and the Commandments.