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One of the biggest mistakes. -John 1:1

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by janc, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. janc

    janc Member

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    For a long time people have thought that the Word is a separate person, Trinitarians believe the Word is another eternal God in a Trinity and Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Word is the first created being, there are also people who believe the Word is an "idea/plan" but all three of these claims are false.
    The Word is the spoken word of God, it is the expression of God's Spirit, everything he speaks is his Word. Therefore there was no Son of God before the birth of the Messiah, the Son of God only began to exist from his human birth, but the Spirit who was in him, who spoke to men, is eternal, this Spirit has no beginning, this Spirit who is the Father spoke to men, it was he who said to the Pharisees in the Son: "Before Abraham was I am". God spoke in the Son, and that is why it is said that the Word became flesh.
    I am not a teacher but I am absolutely sure about this one, so I tell you you must wake up.

    The Word is not a Trinity, nor a created being, nor a plan, but the Word is the Word of God.
     
  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is one essence with the Father. Jesus came out of the Father. Jesus is revealed as the "word" from the OT...Yahveh or Jehovah. The "word" which IS God to us...and God WITH us.

    The Father is the Most High. God in the Son became one with His creation...thus allowing us to be part of God's family. Jesus being the first-born of a new creation that is both human AND divine. Jesus came down so that we might rise up to God. He died so that we might live.

    . God spoke in the Son, and that is why it is said that the Word became flesh.

    This is true. God was in the Son reconciling the world back to Himself.

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.


     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    not saying that you're right or wrong, but if JESUS is one essance .... "WITH... the Father, is he not then the Father?

    maybe you can explain this a bit further. for 1 Corinthians 8:6 in the KJV is correct, but the explination of it I would like to hear.
    is not your words you? and not 101G's
    so your word is "YOU".

    PICJAG.
     
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  4. historyb

    historyb Well-Known Member

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    Absolute lie and hogwash, you do good to learn and not spout off things you absolutely and utterly do not know. We believe there is only one God, you got that! Now that one God is in three persons as the Bible shows even starting in Genesis and at the baptism of Christ. WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THREE GODS BUT ONE GOD!
     
  5. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    where at in the bible do it shows three persons starting in Genesis? scripture please. or anyone who believes the same way, please post your scripture.

    PICJAG.
     
  6. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is eternal God.He always was eternal God, The Son, before taking on a body of flesh.
     
  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Jesus is the eternal, and "ONLY" eternal God all by himself. and it was the eternal God who shared himself in flesh, correct.

    PICJAG.
     
  8. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    God is three co-equal, co-eternal persons, and yet one God.
    From the 1689confession of faith;
    The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
    Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
    1._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
    ( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )
    2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
    ( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )

    3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
    ( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )
     
  9. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    fine I have hear all of that before, but lets go to the bible for PROOF of any trinity of three person.
    #1. is this the same person in John 1:3 as in Isaiah 44:24? yes or No. before you answer read both scripture carefully before you answer.

    PICJAG.
     
  10. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Look here;
    6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

    8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    6 Thus said Jehovah, king of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts: `I [am] the first, and I the last, And besides Me there is no God.

    Do you see this?
     
  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    (smile), I see all of that, but it didn't answer the question. is the person in Isaiah 44:24 who made all things is the same person in John 1:3 who made all things... YES or NO.

    after you answer that question, then we will get to the First and the Last.

    your answer please.

    PICJAG.
     
  12. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

    2 this one was in the beginning with God;

    3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

    14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
    Col.1
    12 Giving thanks to the Father who did make us meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints in the light,

    13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,

    14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,

    15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

    16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

    17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.


    18 And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,

    19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
     
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Except that in the case of John 1:1, "THE WORD WAS GOD". The second person of the Trinity is also God.

    Furthermore John 1:14 tells us the "THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US". The Word became a Man and lived among men.

    So here you are still trying to promote your lies about God the Word. Which means that you are wilfully blind and will never learn the truth.
     
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  14. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    He can only believe if God allows him to believe.
    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

    47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
     
  15. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster Well-Known Member

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    I think we had this discussion in another thread, but to refresh your understanding here is a passage to consider:

    Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (2) Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    The above passage is irrefutable rock-solid proof that Jesus Christ exists as the Son of God prior to His incarnation, see also Ephesians 3:9,
    "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"

    Why do these Scriptures say God created the worlds by the Son if His Son did not exist at the time the Universe was created?


    Also note the passage below which stipulates that before Jesus took the likeness of a human He was in the form of God.


    Php 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
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  16. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Well we see you cannot answer a simple question of yes or no, so we will. it's the same one person. Jesus is the ordinal First of himself in flesh meaning he's also the ordinal Last. scripture, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" notice "ONE" LORD. one here means the
    H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
    1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
    2. (as an ordinal) first.
    [a numeral from H258]
    KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
    Root(s): H258

    see that second definition. this is the answer to the person who is in Isaiah 44:24 as as the Last Adam, (1 Corinthians 15:45), is the same person in John 1:3. when you went to Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." you just put the scriptural noose around your neck. for the FIRST is "WITH" the Last, which is the same one person, as in John 1:1. listen, WATCH THE "WITH". Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." see the "WITH" here in the verse. it's the same word in John 1:1 and you believe that the WORD was "WITH" God correct... wrong, the WORD is God as John 1:1c states. lets prove it out. God said in Isaiah 41:4, that he the LORD the First is "WITH" the Last .... I AM he. seem like two separate person do it not? well no, listen to what "WITH" really means, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." did you hear that? the first is ALSO, ALSO, ALSO, the last meaning he, the "I" is the same one person who is the First that is "WITH" the last. so your assessment is in ERROR

    now if you can't believe that, the bible scriptures which do not lie. then can you believe the Lord Jesus? and remember he cannot lie either. lets hear from his own lip, God himself, "HOW MANY PERSON(S) was at the beginning when he MADE man. listen, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,". BINGO, the Lord Jesus who cannot lie Identified only one Person who made the man male and female at the beginning. he said "he" and he is a single PERSON designation. so do you believe the Lord Jesus who cannot LIE.

    see how clear the bible tells us that God is a HE, and not them. Deuteronomy 6:4 reveals God's plurality as ONE PERSON, and that one person "SHARED" himself in flesh. and the GREEK Word for that is G243 allos which tell us how God did it, look it up, I suggest you used the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words it gives the best definition of G243 allos, the "ANOTHER". .

    so all the scriptures testify of ONE PERSON "SHARED", or diversified in flesh.... simply put, he the Lord Jesus is the "ANOTHER" of himself in flesh. for he is the ordinal First who was alone and by himself when he CREATED, and MADE all things, in cluding MAN. and he is the ordinal Last who REDEEMED and SAVE all things that he made, including MAN.

    God's plurality is in KNOWING that he JESUS is the ordinal First/Father and LORD, and he JESUS is the ordinal Last/Son and Lord. oh how simple that was. ONE PERSON SHARED IN FLESH.

    so no, God is not three persons but one person "shared" in flesh.

    PICJAG.
     
  17. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    If you want to go into second death, keep up with such nonsense. If you want to know God just read the verses offered to you.
    Not everyone is going to believe.

    By the way, Allos means another of the same kind, so it is a proof of the trinity, I will send another comforter.lol
     
  18. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    another ERROR on your PART, listen, "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort".
    the numerical difference is the ordinal First/Father/LORD, one person. the ordinal Last/Son/Lord. same person ONLY SHARED IN FLESH, for as said, "SORT" is the same one person, for there is only ONE GOD, there in no ... "OTHER" God beside him listen, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." ok, how many is "ME?" one person, ONE KIND. BINGO. see how easy it is to explain. again how many is ME? ONE person.

    one more to put the icing on the cake, Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." there is that "ME", again, single PERSON, designation.

    THAT'S WHY YOU COULD NOT, OR WOULD NOT ANSWER THE ISAIAH 44:24 AND JOHN 1:3 QUESTION, FOR IT'S THE SAME ONE PERSON.

    PICJAG.
     
  19. Getitright

    Getitright Active Member

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    One thing to keep in mind is that the word "God" is a title. It's like president or king. The Father being God and Jesus being God means that they are both divine. It doesn't mean they are one being. There are not. The Father is God Almighty. Jesus is His Son. Two separate beings. Here is a quote from Ignatius who was a student of the Apostle John.

    I write this letter to you from Philippi. May He who is alone unbegotten, keep you stedfast both in the spirit and in the flesh, through Him who was begotten before time began! And may I behold you in the kingdom of Christ! I salute him who is to bear rule over you in my stead: may I have joy of him in the Lord! Fare ye well in God, and in Christ, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
    Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.


    The bolding is mine. Note that Ignatius says that one was begotten before time began. This is obviously the Son of God, Jesus.

    Another early Christian leader recorded these words. Here Justin the Martyr explains the use of the term God.

    But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten there is no name given. For by whatever name He be called, He has as His elder the person who gives Him the name. But these words Father, and God, and Creator, and Lord, and Master, are not names, but appellations derived from His good deeds and functions. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God’s ordering all things through Him; this name itself also containing an unknown significance; as also the appellation “God” is not a name, but an opinion implanted in the nature of men of a thing that can hardly be explained.
    Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.


    Note too, that Justin also states that the Son was begotten before the works. We can see from Justin's words that the word God, is not a name. It's a title. Both the Father and the Son can be called by the same title.

    Jesus clears up any confusion that might be lingering. In His prayer to the Father He says,

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jn. 17:3 KJV)

    Here Jesus tells us that the Father is the only true God. They are two separate beings.
     
  20. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the reply. second, based on your definition, "God is two separate beings". which is incorrect, for God is ONE BEING and everything else is his creation. with your statement, you have two Gods.

    lets examine this closley. the Lord Jesus whom you call the son is the almighty also. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." and JESUS is Lord. now, is he LORD, all caps. for the LORD is the almighty also, scripture, Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." now if the LORD, all caps is the same one who is Lord, then all separation and distiction goes right out the window because it would be a lie.

    now, either the LORD, (whom you calls the Father), and the Lord, (whom you calls the Son), is the same one person, or you have two almighty persons which is two Gods. and the latter is anti Bible.

    so that means that the LORD, all caps is the Lord, the same one person. but that needed to be explain correctly. else as said you have two almighties.

    if you like we can discuss this in detail.

    PICJAG
     
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