One of the biggest mistakes. -John 1:1

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kcnalp

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Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Amen Isaiah! Jesus is God!
 

tigger 2

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What is really intended at Is. 9:6?

First, one probable answer: the words are to be taken in their secondary sense (e.g., 'a mighty god' rather than 'the mighty God').

Another probable answer is that the name, like so many personal names of Israelites, was intended as a praise or description of the Eternal Father, God Almighty, the only true God, Jehovah.

For example,

JEHU - ‘Jehovah is he.’


(1.) The son of Obed, and father of Azariah (1 Chronicles 2:38) [and three others in scripture]. - Easton’s Bible Dictionary, ‘Jehu,’ from Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Thomas Nelson Publ. (Also p. 331, Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House, 1982.)

So four different men (one was a king), worshipers of the one true God, Jehovah, were named ‘He is Jehovah’ in the Holy Scriptures! This popular Israelite name obviously was not intended to describe the person who bore it!

Another important detail about personal names is that those names composed of more than one Hebrew word (e.g., Immanuel; Isaiah; Michael; Jehoshabeath; etc.) is that minor words such as prepositions ('of',' 'in,' 'with', 'on,' etc.) and some verbs such as 'is,' 'are,' etc. are omitted in the scriptures.

For instance, two of the best-known Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his King” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.” And no scholar ever claims that it means that Elimelech himself was "God King."

But perhaps most instructive of all is the compound name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3

Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - -They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:


".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;


[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means (a)“quick to the plunder; (b) swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: (a)“For unto us a child is born; (b) unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to some trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God. It is far from the trinity 'proof' that so many want it to be.
 
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kcnalp

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What is really intended at Is. 9:6?

First, one probable answer: the words are to be taken in their secondary sense (e.g., 'a mighty god' rather than 'the mighty God').

Another probable answer is that the name, like so many personal names of Israelites, was intended as a praise or description of the Eternal Father, God Almighty, the only true God, Jehovah.

For example,

JEHU - ‘Jehovah is he.’


(1.) The son of Obed, and father of Azariah (1 Chronicles 2:38) [and three others in scripture]. - Easton’s Bible Dictionary, ‘Jehu,’ from Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Thomas Nelson Publ. (Also p. 331, Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House, 1982.)

So four different men (one was a king), worshipers of the one true God, Jehovah, were named ‘He is Jehovah’ in the Holy Scriptures! This popular Israelite name obviously was not intended to describe the person who bore it!

Another important detail about personal names is that those names composed of more than one Hebrew word (e.g., Immanuel; Isaiah; Michael; Jehoshabeath; etc.) is that minor words such as prepositions ('of',' 'in,' 'with', 'on,' etc.) and some verbs such as 'is,' 'are,' etc. are omitted in the scriptures.

For instance, two of the best-known Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his King” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.” And no scholar ever claims that it means that Elimelech himself was "God King."

But perhaps most instructive of all is the compound name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3

Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - -They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:


".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;


[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means (a)“quick to the plunder; (b) swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: (a)“For unto us a child is born; (b) unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to some trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God. It is far from the trinity 'proof' that so many want it to be.
JW smokescreen?
 

101G

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Isaiah 9:6 is intended for what it is. God coming in flesh and blood, the ordinal Last, the Lord. people can get off the a "god", small "g" in God thing. no, the bible has already eliminated that, Deuteronomy 32:39.

but lets breakdown Isaiah 9:6.
A. "For unto us a child is born". flesh a body for the Lord to come in. that flesh is called the son of God, scripture, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." so the Son of God is BORN, this Holy Thing ... Flesh came our of Mary. this is the outward man.

B. "unto us a son is given". the Son of Man is sent, or come. scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (BINGO, the Son of man came from HEAVEN, not from Mary. one might want to read that again). THIS IS THE INNER MAN

C. "and the government shall be upon his shoulder". for he the Lord Jesus, God, is the "Governor" of nations, Matthew 2:3 "When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him."
Matthew 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born."
Matthew 2:5 "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,"
Matthew 2:6 "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel."

as the HEAD of the CHURCH, he set the rules and regulations in his CHURCH which is a house of prayer for ... "ALL NATIONS". for as Governor, he is KING, meaning he is God for God, the Spirit hold the title "Governor", scripture, Psalms 22:28 "For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations."

D. "and his name shall be called Wonderful". the word WONDERFUL here is ,
H6382 פֶּלֶא pele' (peh'-leh) n-m.
a miracle.
[from H6381]
KJV: marvellous thing, wonder(-ful, -fully).
Root(s): H6381

the Lord Jesus is a miracle worker, scripture, John 12:37 "But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:"

E. "Counsellor". this is a direct reference to his Appellation as God, the Holy Spirit. a. advisor, b. helper, c. guide, and d. comfort when one is in trouble.
H3289 יָעַץ ya`ats (yaw-ats') v.
1. to advise.
2. (reflexively) to deliberate or resolve.
[a primitive root]
KJV: advertise, take advise, advise (well),consult, (give, take) counsel(-lor), determine, devise, guide, purpose.

ANOTHER WORD FOR "COUNSELLOR" is advocate, or counsel for the defense. and an advocate, or counsel for the defense is a "COMFORTER, scripture, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
and that word "Advocate" means in the Greek,
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822

definition #3. is the dead give away, there is only one "COMFORTER" who is God .... the Holy Ghost/Spirit.... BINGO. without even getting to the "EVERLASTING FATHER", or the "MIGHTY GOD", all of Isaiah 9:6 is describing the ONE and TRUE LIVING "GOD"... JESUS

F. "The mighty God". the ALMIGHTY, as the ordinal First... LORD, Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." THAT'S THE LORD JESUS BEFORE HE CAME IN FLESH AND BLOOD.

G. "The everlasting Father". supportive scripture, 1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." BINGO, the Lord Jesus is the ONLY ONE WHO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". only ONE person.

H. "The Prince of Peace?". must we say anything more?

so Isaiah 9:6 gives a dossier on God in just one verse. there is much more but this will do to show us that JESUS IS GOD "diversified" IN FLESH.


PICJAG.
 

kcnalp

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so Isaiah 9:6 gives a dossier on God in just one verse. there is much more but this will do to show us that JESUS IS GOD "diversified" IN FLESH.


PICJAG.
Amen! Jesus is God the Creator!

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created.
 

rjs330

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First thanks for the reply, second, look up what "deity" means.

Thanks

PICJAG.

The word is theiotes which means divinity. The natural ungodly man can see divinity in the creation. It doesn't mean they will see and understand all there is to know about God and call his ways and truth. That can only be spiritually discerned. That Jesus is God is clearly seen in scripture in all the verses that have been shown to you. In the totality of scripture. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge it is between you and God. We can only lead you to truth
 
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101G

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The word is theiotes which means divinity and divine nature.
first thanks for the reply, second, another word for "divinity", is deity, so go again and look up what "deity" means.

PICJAG.
 

rjs330

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No, but God's "OWN" Image is to come, in his equally shared spirit nature... notice the small case "s" in spirit.

and that image is in flesh and bone with blood. listen, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

understand God's OWN arm is him, the "US" and the "OUR" to come. and the Him, or the He to come is clearly seen in
Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?" (Who's ARM?)
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." (STOP, who is the "he", and the "him", just like in Genesis 1:27? GOD'S "OWN" ARM THAT IS TO COME. see kcnalp, God's "own" arm is "he", "him" God himself.... BINGO. oh well let's go on,
Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (see the he and the him, just as in Genesis 1:27. but notice God said, "a man of sorrows:, God's own arm is a MAN... (smile), see it now?), of well lets go on,
Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."
Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

who do you suppose this is?..... that's right ... GOD'S OWN, OWN, OWN, ARM. see, that why the Lord Jesus says "MY" Father, which is "HIS", Spirit, my Father is "his" OWN" Spirit, the Holy Spirit, for GOD is a Spirit, per John 4:24a. so when the Lord Jesus say, "I ascend to MY God", as I been saying, he is saying, "I ascend to my Spirit".

do you understand now? if not re-read this post.

the Lord Jesus is God to come in flesh, (per Isaiah 35:4). he is the equal share of the Holy Spirit in flesh... BINGO.

PICJAG

All those verses help you understand how the trinity works.
 

rjs330

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first thanks for the reply, second, another word for "divinity", is deity, so go again and look up what "deity" means.

PICJAG.

I used the Greek which indicates divinity. What is divinity?
I could go into a word study with you as to the Greek on this, but I'm not sure if it would matter to you.

I have a degree in Bible Literature and have a pretty good grasp on understanding scripture bases upon the Hebrew and Greek text.
 

101G

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I used the Greek which indicates divinity. What is divinity?
I could go into a word study with you as to the Greek on this, but I'm not sure if it would matter to you.

I have a degree in Bible Literature and have a pretty good grasp on understanding scripture bases upon the Hebrew and Greek text.
GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply. second, "you have a degree in Bible Literature", ... AND? what I'm saying about the Lord Jesus still stand.

since you have a degree in Bible Literature that's good to hear, maybe you can answer this question for all, since you have the degree. in John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 is this the same one person who, "MADE ALL THINGS?", yes or no.

I'm glad we have someone with a degree in Bible Literature who can answer this question. I'll be looking for your answer soon.

thanks in advance.

PICJAG.
 

Getitright

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thanks for the reply, second, ......

#1. why? because he is the Father in flesh finishing his, his, his, own work. listen, John 4:34 "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." question, "WHO WAS SENT?". answer, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."
who ARM is the Lord JESUS?, drum roll please ..... "mine own arm". BINGO, did you get that RIGHT, Getitright?

understand Getitright, lets get it right. Jesus is the ordinal "FIRST", the Father, the LORD, who sent his "OWN ARM" the ordinal "LAST", his Son/his own ARM/himself, shared, into his, "OWN", creation to finish his "own" work. supportive scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

ok Getitright, who came? GOD, remember it's only one ... God. read Isaiah 35:4 again to be sure. for the ordinal last, the son came at John 1:1 because the NEW MAN "began". for the the word BEGINNING in John 1:1 means,
G746 ἀρχή arche (ar-chee') n.
1. (properly abstract) a commencement.
2. (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank).
[from G756]
KJV: beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule
Root(s): G756

and this definition, it's root clearly defines God as a plurality, or the EQUAL "Share" of his "OWN"self lets see it,
G756 ἄρχομαι archomai (ar'-cho-mai) v.
to commence (in order of time).
[middle voice of G757 (through the implication, of precedence)]
KJV: (rehearse from the) begin(-ning)
Root(s): G757

to commence (in order of time). what "WAS" FIRST, the "BEGINNING", is NOW "LAST" or the "END, his own ARM. the same one person, only now shared in flesh and blood. I am the First, and WITH, and ALSO the Last.. see Isaiah 41:4, and Isaiah 48:12 respectively

ORDER, of TIME? ORDER of TIME, ORDER? the Ordinal Last his time is to come. supportive scripture, Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," BINGO. the ordinal last, the equal share of God almighty himself came in the fullness of time. one more scripture, Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;"again that word "beginning" as in John 1:! is a commencement in order of time. the ordinal First is now the ordinal Last. .... BINGO.

side note, the Gospel, the Witness of God, as so is BAPTISM, the two witness John and the Lord Jesus, the two witness "NOW", meaning today, Water Baptism, and the Gospel. yes NOW is salvation, for, "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." Isaiah 63:5 (KJV). one of these days one's eyes will be open to the truth.

so getitright, this answer all of you questions above.THE "SON" IS THE "FATHER" SHARED/DIVERSIFIED IN FLESH....... BINGO.

PICJAG.
You're taking passages of Scripture out of context to make a narrative. Please explain, in context how the Passage from Isaiah is relevant to what Jesus said.

Jesus is not the Father. John makes that very clear.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Paul too, makes it clear.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.(1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Here Paul says of the Father, "whom no one hath seen, nor can see". Again, people saw Jesus. They are not the same. They can't be.
 

Getitright

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GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply. second, "you have a degree in Bible Literature", ... AND? what I'm saying about the Lord Jesus still stand.

since you have a degree in Bible Literature that's good to hear, maybe you can answer this question for all, since you have the degree. in John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 is this the same one person who, "MADE ALL THINGS?", yes or no.

I'm glad we have someone with a degree in Bible Literature who can answer this question. I'll be looking for your answer soon.

thanks in advance.

PICJAG.

it was the same, it was Jesus. Jesus is the one who appeared to the Old Testament saints and prophets. It was Jesus who created all things. The Father spoke and the Son created.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Heb. 1:1-2 KJV)

Jesus Himself said that He came out of God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Jn. 8:42 KJV)

The word translated "from" in this verse is the Greek word "ek". It means to come out of. Jesus came out of God. That is why He's called the, the only begotten Son.
 

101G

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You're taking passages of Scripture out of context to make a narrative. Please explain, in context how the Passage from Isaiah is relevant to what Jesus said.

Jesus is not the Father. John makes that very clear.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)
first thanks for the reply, second, your first ERROR of the day. A. Jesus is God, his own ARM, see Isaiah 63:5. B. when you see Jesus you see the Father, John 14:8 "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

Paul too, makes it clear.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.(1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Here Paul says of the Father, "whom no one hath seen, nor can see". Again, people saw Jesus. They are not the same. They can't be.
here is your second ERROR of the day, for Jesus God, the Holy Spirit have already appeared the First time in FLESH, see Luke 2:25. and then he, Jesus came or return in Spirit on the day of pentecost, by manifestation in the Spiritual Gifts, and now will return the SECOND TIME IN FLESH..... :D which is his SECOND....drum roll please...... "APPERANCE", now in Glorified flesh. boy I just LOVE THIS Word of God.

PICJAG.
 

101G

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it was the same, it was Jesus. Jesus is the one who appeared to the Old Testament saints and prophets. It was Jesus who created all things. The Father spoke and the Son created.
THIRD, ERROR of the day. correct, it was the Lord Jesus who made all things, and I thank you for the truth, BUT, BUT, and that's with one "t".... :D
A. it was Jesus who "appeared", but not manifested as a person, but appeared in the OT, "ALONE". listen to Isaiah 44:24 and understand what you missed. "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" BINGO, JESUS was "Alone", and "BY HIMSELF", so your statement of, "The Father spoke and the Son created", is just that an incorrect statement. the Father is JESUS the ordinal First, (per Deut 32:6). when he JESUS spoke. NO ONE ELSE was around..... :D do you understand what "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF" means?
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." the "I" there is Jesus the ordinal First. I guess you din't know that? fourth ERROR of the DAY for it is the Lord Jesus as the ordinal Last now, as God speaking to the children of the fathers. same God, now speaking "FACE" to "FACE". so there is no excuse.
Jesus Himself said that He came out of God.
yes, our Lord "emanated" out from his OWN Spirit... again see Isaiah 63:5.
The word translated "from" in this verse is the Greek word "ek". It means to come out of. Jesus came out of God. That is why He's called the, the only begotten Son.
come is the same as "from", scripture, Hebrews 10:7 "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God." to do the will of who? his own will..... :eek: how? by coming in flesh for a Sacrifice and an offering is to be made for sin. (smile), this is too easy. God, the ordinal shared himself in flesh.
Hebrews 10:8 "Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;"

now to the John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

proceeded: G1831 ἐξέρχομαι exerchomai (ex-er'-cho-mai) v.
to issue.
{literally or figuratively}
[from G1537 and G2064]
KJV: come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad

just what the root word in Phil 2:6 states of our Lord NATURE, (smile)....

I see you have nothing. study Phil 2:6 and understand our Lord Jesus nature...... Next.

P{ICJAG.
 

Getitright

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first thanks for the reply, second, your first ERROR of the day. A. Jesus is God, his own ARM, see Isaiah 63:5. B. when you see Jesus you see the Father, John 14:8 "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

There is no error. You're simply misunderstanding this passage. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus is the express image of the Father and that He doe the will of the Father. Again, no man has seen God at any time. That statement is crystal clear. Paul said that no man can see God. If no one can see God, the God the Father and Jesus are not the same person. One can be seen and one can't. There's just no way around that. You really should reconsider your understanding of some of these passages as it creates conflict with other passages


here is your second ERROR of the day, for Jesus God, the Holy Spirit have already appeared the First time in FLESH, see Luke 2:25. and then he, Jesus came or return in Spirit on the day of pentecost, by manifestation in the Spiritual Gifts, and now will return the SECOND TIME IN FLESH..... :D which is his SECOND....drum roll please...... "APPERANCE", now in Glorified flesh. boy I just LOVE THIS Word of God.

PICJAG.

And, you're understanding of these passages creates conflicts. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same.
 

kcnalp

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John 21:17
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

ONLY God knows all things!
 

Getitright

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THIRD, ERROR of the day. correct, it was the Lord Jesus who made all things, and I thank you for the truth, BUT, BUT, and that's with one "t".... :D
A. it was Jesus who "appeared", but not manifested as a person, but appeared in the OT, "ALONE". listen to Isaiah 44:24 and understand what you missed. "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" BINGO, JESUS was "Alone", and "BY HIMSELF", so your statement of, "The Father spoke and the Son created", is just that an incorrect statement. the Father is JESUS the ordinal First, (per Deut 32:6). when he JESUS spoke. NO ONE ELSE was around..... :D do you understand what "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF" means?

You're argument here fails. Jesus did appear in the Flesh in the OT. He appeared to Abraham. You're grabbing passages out of context and trying to for a narrative. Read these passages in context. You're all over the place. Again, no man can see God, people saw Jesus, thus they cannot be one and the same. It's impossible.

Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." the "I" there is Jesus the ordinal First. I guess you din't know that? fourth ERROR of the DAY for it is the Lord Jesus as the ordinal Last now, as God speaking to the children of the fathers. same God, now speaking "FACE" to "FACE". so there is no excuse.

The error is that you're conflating passages. Jesus said the words He spoke were not His but the Father's.

KJV John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (Jn. 14:10 KJV)

Jesus spoke the words of the Father. Again, it was the Father, who spoke to Christ and Christ to man.



yes, our Lord "emanated" out from his OWN Spirit... again see Isaiah 63:5.

Sorry but that's not Scriptural.

come is the same as "from", scripture, Hebrews 10:7 "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God." to do the will of who? his own will..... :eek: how? by coming in flesh for a Sacrifice and an offering is to be made for sin. (smile), this is too easy. God, the ordinal shared himself in flesh.
Hebrews 10:8 "Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;"

Sorry, they are not the same word. They are two different Greek words. Ek means to come out of.

Your interpretation here makes no sense. You have God talking to himself. That's not logical.

now to the John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

proceeded: G1831 ἐξέρχομαι exerchomai (ex-er'-cho-mai) v.
to issue.
{literally or figuratively}
[from G1537 and G2064]
KJV: come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad

just what the root word in Phil 2:6 states of our Lord NATURE, (smile)....

I see you have nothing. study Phil 2:6 and understand our Lord Jesus nature...... Next.

P{ICJAG.

You've got the word there.

Εἶπεν οὖν1 αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Εἰ ὁ θεὸς πατὴρ ὑμῶν ἦν, ἠγαπᾶτε ἂν ἐμέ· ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον καὶ ἥκω· οὐδὲ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἐμαυτοῦ ἐλήλυθα, ἀλλ᾽ ἐκεῖνός με ἀπέστειλεν. (Jn. 8:42 BYZ)


Ek is in red, exerchomai is in blue. "Ek tou θεοῦ" = out of the God. Jesus came out of God. He didn't come out of Himself.
 

101G

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he Scriptures tell us that Jesus is the express image of the Father and that He doe the will of the Father.
first thanks for the reply, second, your fifth ERROR of the day, listen, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
"his" PERSON is the ordinal First, who is JESUS himself, the LORD, with out flesh without bone, and without blood, (the one whom you acknowledge as the creator who made all things, John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24, (smile) . the "Spirit", who is Jesus, and who's better to show up in person ..... that your ownself...... :D for in the OT, as Spirit he only Appeared, in vision, dreams, or used similitudes, Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."

so the IMAGE of his "OWN" Person/self was to come in PERSON, supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." the IMAGE of God is MANIFESTED in flesh, he didn't "appear", nor did he used any dreams, or similitudes, or visions. no he came in person, that's why he said, John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

hello, hello, one could not see JESUS in the OT, because he is "Spirit", now he MANIFESTED himself in flesh, personally for all to see, and Hear. do you understand?.

PICJAG.