Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Marty fox]

Christ is not seated in heaven symbolically.

I didn’t say that He was

 

[grafted branch]

Is or is not after satan's little season has ended, that this is meaning after the thousand years have expired? Obviously, it would be meaning after the thousand years expired since the end of satan's little season couldn't possibly be meaning before the thousand years begin. Nor can it be meaning during the thousand years. That leaves only one option remaining, that at the end of satan's little season, this is meaning after the thousand years have expired, therefore, contradicting nothing in the text.

Revelation 20:5 the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished <5055>.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired <5055> Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

Both Satans little season and the rest of the dead live after the thousand years are <5055>.

Yes Satans little season ends after the thousand years since it began after the thousand years but if the dead don’t live until after the little season ends then Revelation 20:5 would be untrue the very next day after the thousand years ends.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 20:5 the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished <5055>.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired <5055> Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

Both Satans little season and the rest of the dead live after the thousand years are <5055>.

Yes Satans little season ends after the thousand years since it began after the thousand years but if the dead don’t live until after the little season ends then Revelation 20:5 would be untrue the very next day after the thousand years ends.

Do you believe the rest of the dead will be raised to live life again on the earth? The dead are bodily resurrected to be condemned not to live again on the earth. Notice in vs 5 is does not say the rest of the dead are resurrected to life again. John writes only that the dead do NOT live again. Why doesn't John say the rest of the dead shall be resurrected to life again when the thousand years are finished? Could it be because they are NOT bodily/physically resurrected to life to live again, but to be judged and cast into the lake of fire that is the second death? Theirs shall not be a resurrection to life as are the dead who have in life done good. Theirs shall be a resurrection of damnation, because in life they had not part in the first resurrection that is the resurrection life through Christ, and therefore they shall not be saved from the second death.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[ScottA]

Only if you interpret any of the verses using the word zao which are not referring to the living God, as referring to human spirits who are not living | alive in their human bodies - and anyone who reads each verse and is honest, will see it.

All those who are honest with the scriptures and do not try to make the scriptures mean what they want them to mean and say what they want them to say, see it for themselves when they read each verse containing the word, because there is no need for any doubt. You place yourself outside of this camp of the saints by refusing to hear and learn from the Word of God alone. Instead you take away from its meaning and add your own meaning.

By that logic Jesus is a baby sheep, and our charge is to light candles and lamps and not put them under a basket...literally.

As I said, and Jesus said before, "the words are spirit", and to interpret them literarily is foolishness.

 

[grafted branch]

Do you believe the rest of the dead will be raised to live life again on the earth? The dead are bodily resurrected to be condemned not to live again on the earth. Notice in vs 5 is does not say the rest of the dead are resurrected to life again. John writes only that the dead do NOT live again. Why doesn't John say the rest of the dead shall be resurrected to life again when the thousand years are finished? Could it be because they are NOT bodily/physically resurrected to life to live again, but to be judged and cast into the lake of fire that is the second death? Theirs shall not be a resurrection to life as are the dead who have in life done good. Theirs shall be a resurrection of damnation, because in life they had not part in the first resurrection that is the resurrection life through Christ, and therefore they shall not be saved from the second death.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes, the rest of the dead have to be on earth, else you have Revelation 20:5 being false the day after the millennium ends. Personally I don’t think they are physically dead people that are raised from their graves, I think “dead” has another meaning.

This is why those who are beheaded in Revelation 20:4 can’t be referring to physical martyrs, it creates a conflict. I agree the physically dead will be raised to face judgement but that can’t be what the rest of the dead that live in Revelation 20:5 are facing because of the conflict it creates.

You have to have something incorrect in your view that needs to be modified to make everything work. I’m not saying I have a perfect solution, just that everything has to fit without it conflicting with other verses.

 

[ScottA]

You are calling what is true a lie, and what is a lie, true by taking the meaning of the word zao (alive in the body) out of scripture for the sake of your made-up and unbiblical theology. Then you resort to false accusations against someone pointing out your error. Hence the one calling evil good, is you, and whatever you say is not worth reading if that's how you defend your defenseless expulsion of the meaning of what is written while you insert your own meaning produced by and in support of your own unbiblical theology.

No, but you have not fully considered the confusion God intentionally placed upon all language that it should be discerned spiritually, and "you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourself, and those who were entering in you hindered.”

The Priests and the Pharisees also misunderstood and crucified Christ accusing Him of "blasphemy", which was completely backwards; and unless you turn from your own misunderstanding, you do the same to the Spirit.

 

[Davidpt]

but if the dead don’t live until after the little season ends then Revelation 20:5 would be untrue the very next day after the thousand years ends.

Can't say I have ever thought of it like that. But now that you mention it, you might have a valid point here after all.

One thing that doesn't seem reasonable is this. That when they live again, and if this is meaning the moment satan is loosed, it can't be meaning bodily in that case, as in they bodily rise from the dead. Yet, pretty much everyone I know, whether Premil or Amil, agrees that when they live again, it is meaning bodily, as in they are bodily raised from the dead.

 

[rwb]

Yes, the rest of the dead have to be on earth, else you have Revelation 20:5 being false the day after the millennium ends. Personally I don’t think they are physically dead people that are raised from their graves, I think “dead” has another meaning.

This is why those who are beheaded in Revelation 20:4 can’t be referring to physical martyrs, it creates a conflict. I agree the physically dead will be raised to face judgement but that can’t be what the rest of the dead that live in Revelation 20:5 are facing because of the conflict it creates.

You have to have something incorrect in your view that needs to be modified to make everything work. I’m not saying I have a perfect solution, just that everything has to fit without it conflicting with other verses.

Can't say I have ever thought of it like that. But now that you mention it, you might have a valid point here after all.

One thing that doesn't seem reasonable is this. That when they live again, and if this is meaning the moment satan is loosed, it can't be meaning bodily in that case. Yet, pretty much everyone I know, whether Premil or Amil, agrees that when they live again, it is meaning bodily, as in they are bodily raised from the dead.

The rest of the dead must simply live again after the thousand years expire! To live again is not the same as being part of resurrection life again. John uses his words carefully that we may know, the dead are not bodily RESURRECTED to life again. But they shall be revived or recover physical life to stand before the GWTJ and be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. The difference in resurrection life and lived again is that one is for a lifetime on the new earth, and the other is to give account before God of the evil they have done before they died.

GB, how do physical martyrs alive after death create a conflict in vs 4?

GB, you said, "I agree the physically dead will be raised to face judgement but that can’t be what the rest of the dead that live in Revelation 20:5 are facing because of the conflict it creates." How is there a conflict, and why would only some of the dead face judgment while the rest are raised to physical life on the earth? Do you believe any who have physically died in unbelief will be of Christ's resurrection life?

David, I agree! When one has part in the resurrection life of Christ, who is the first resurrection, they shall be bodily resurrected immortal and incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. Also, the DEAD are raised, not of the first resurrection, it too shall be bodily from the graves in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Not having part in the resurrection life through Christ means they are raised bodily to stand before God, not to be alive again on the earth.

What seems a conflict to you is caused because you're trying to fit your doctrine into the text. In reality there is no conflict at all with what John writes. Apparent conflict is eliminated when the chapter is rightlly discerned.

 

[Zao is life]

No, but you have not fully considered the confusion God intentionally placed upon all language that it should be discerned spiritually, and "you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourself, and those who were entering in you hindered.”

The Priests and the Pharisees also misunderstood and crucified Christ accusing Him of "blasphemy", which was completely backwards; and unless you turn from your own misunderstanding, you do the same to the Spirit.

You are fighting against Christ. You twist scripture and then claim or at least imply that anyone who disagrees and exposes your error, is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

You really are puffed up. But your words are what you will answer to Christ for (not me), and you will not be able to accuse Him of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit when He tells you that your doctrine was wrong and asks why you falsely accused one of His flock of blaspheming the Holy Spirit when disagreeing with you and your own doctrine.

You're a disgrace. I feel sorry for you in that great Day of Christ.

Goodbye

 

[Randy Kluth]

IMO the reason for the confusion is that Premillennialism doesn't accept the "first resurrection" is the physical resurrection of Christ that man must, through His Spirit have part in before death to overcome the second death. Premillennialism want us to believe these who have physically died have been physically resurrected again to live and reign with Christ during a literal period of one thousand years. Then after the one thousand years of time, there will be another physical resurrection. I'm sure you can see the contradiction and inconsistencies this doctrine forces into the Word of God! Because Scripture tells us that none will be physically resurrected before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

Certainly Premills accept the physical resurrection of Christ in the sense you describe, that we must, through his Spirit, have a part in him before death to overcome the 2nd death. We just would not call this "the 1st Resurrection."

Yes, Premills generally believe in 2 Resurrections, one at the 2nd Coming of Christ and another at the end of the Millennium. That is why we would call the Resurrection of the Church at the 2nd Coming the "1st Resurrection," and the Resurrection of the Church at the end of the Millennium the "2nd Resurrection." We don't think Christ's own resurrection figures in this at all, because the account in 20 Revelation appears to take place *after* the persecution of the Church by Antichrist.

So no, I don't see any contradiction in Premill views. Premill and Amill both accept the need for the Church to presently tap into Christ's own historic resurrection--that is indeed critical. The rest is a matter of personal conviction, whether you want to read the "1st Resurrection" as Christ's own resurrection or as the 1st Resurrection of the Church. To me, the actual rendering of the text indicates it is for me a Resurrection of the Church, and not Christ's own Resurrection. But I can understand how it is taken either way.

 

[Zao is life]

Apparently then, to get to the bottom of this debate involving the thousand years, understanding why the rest of the dead don't live again until after the thousand years, is relevant. Does it mean the rest of the dead meant here are all bodily dead at the beginning of the thousand years and remain bodily dead throughout the thousand years, or does it mean something else? Do the rest of the dead meant here have any involvement with satan's little season, as in they are alive and well during it? If they do, how did they manage to live again after the thousand years unless they are bodily raised first? How does it make sense that satan needs to deceive someone already bodily dead until they come back to life, someone already deceived before they died, someone already unsaved when they died, because clearly, whoever the rest of the dead are meaning, these are meaning the unsaved not the saved, since only the saved have part in the first resurrection, not the unsaved as well.

I won't say my 'guess' is that they are bodily dead for a thousand years, because since the death of Adam, scripture itself defines dying and death as bodily death, not 'spiritual' death. Death = no everlasting life, and everlasting life is something that is experienced in the body, according to scripture.

On the other hand my 'guess' is that this idea of the resurrection of the body (anastais) and the saints who were martyred for refusal to worship the beast being seen alive in their bodies (zao) after they were 'beheaded' being a 'spiritual' resurrection, is born from a hang-over in the Western mindset of the Greek/Roman gnostic insistence on the eternal separation between the natural and the spiritual, mixed partially with a hangover of the worship of the spirits of the ancestors.

@Davidpt I have a slight question mark (slight) as to why no anastasis (resurrection of the body) or zao (alive in the body) is mentioned when death and hades deliver up the dead in them and the dead (not the living) are seen by John standing for judgment, but Revelation 20:5 does imply that they will be bodily resurrected by saying, "But the rest of the dead did not live (in the body) again [anazáō] until the thousand years were finished."

 

[rwb]

Certainly Premills accept the physical resurrection of Christ in the sense you describe, that we must, through his Spirit, have a part in him before death to overcome the 2nd death. We just would not call this "the 1st Resurrection."

Yes, Premills generally believe in 2 Resurrections, one at the 2nd Coming of Christ and another at the end of the Millennium. That is why we would call the Resurrection of the Church at the 2nd Coming the "1st Resurrection," and the Resurrection of the Church at the end of the Millennium the "2nd Resurrection." We don't think Christ's own resurrection figures in this at all, because the account in 20 Revelation appears to take place *after* the persecution of the Church by Antichrist.

So no, I don't see any contradiction in Premill views. Premill and Amill both accept the need for the Church to presently tap into Christ's own historic resurrection--that is indeed critical. The rest is a matter of personal conviction, whether you want to read the "1st Resurrection" as Christ's own resurrection or as the 1st Resurrection of the Church. To me, the actual rendering of the text indicates it is for me a Resurrection of the Church, and not Christ's own Resurrection. But I can understand how it is taken either way.

I don't know about you, but most Premillennialists I've engaged in discussions deny that after death faithful saints are still alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers there still living (spirit) souls. They must deny that being born again of Christ's Spirit is to partake of Christ's resurrection life before they die. Because He alone is the resurrection and the life, the first to be physically resurrected to never die again. To admit the martyred saints are in heaven after they were physically martyred for their faith, one would be forced to acknowledge the "first resurrection" is not from physical death to physical life but is from spiritual death to everlasting spiritual life we have through Christ's Spirit. This is exactly what John means when he writes, "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Before being martyred for their faith they had part in the first resurrection through the resurrection life of Christ, and by the power of His Holy Spirit in them, they have ovecome the second death.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

We don't call the resurrection of Christ from the dead the "first resurrection" the Bible tells us He is! He is the first resurrection we must have part in to overcome the second death. Is it our physical resurrection that overcomes the second death or is it through the Spirit of Christ in us when we are born again that we have overcome the second death.

Acts 26:23 (KJV) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

1 Corinthians 15:20-21 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Who is he who is the overcomer? What does he overcome if not the second death that shall come to all who remain their whole lives children of the wicked one?

1 John 2:13-14 (KJV) I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Something Premillennialism ignores is the FACT that there shall be no bodily resurrection from the graves until an hour coming when the last trumpet begins to sound, and time symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer. And that is the last day of this age of Gospel grace. So claiming there is not one but two bodily resurrections separated by ONE thousand years is really reading ones doctrine into the text.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

John 6:39-40 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[rwb]

On the other hand my 'guess' is that this idea of the resurrection of the body (anastais) and the saints who were martyred for refusal to worship the beast being seen alive in their bodies (zao) after they were 'beheaded' being a 'spiritual' resurrection, is born from a hang-over in the Western mindset of the Greek/Roman gnostic insistence on the eternal separation between the natural and the spiritual, mixed partially with a hangover of the worship of the spirits of the ancestors.

It's good that you say it is you guessing. Because Paul disagrees with your "guess." He writes that when our body dies, it is raised a spiritual body, and we know from Solomon that the spirit (breath of life) in man returns to God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Just as faithful saints who have obtained eternal/everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ within are called a body of Christ, so too in heaven faithful saints after physical death are still a spiritual body of believers there.

 

[grafted branch]

GB, how do physical martyrs alive after death create a conflict in vs 4?

Because if physical martyrs are in view in Revelation 20:4 then physically dead live again after the millennium in Revelation 20:5. The beheaded and the rest of the dead are part of a group they have both either physically died or figuratively died prior to Revelation 20:4.

The conflict happens the very next day after the millennium ends. On that day Satan is loosed but you have the rest of the dead remaining dead. Someone alive on that day will be able to prove the scriptures false if the rest of the physically dead remained physically dead. Just as if Jesus remained in the tomb for four days instead of three, at the start of the fourth day, the scriptures could be proven false, even if He arose later that day.

GB, you said, "I agree the physically dead will be raised to face judgement but that can’t be what the rest of the dead that live in Revelation 20:5 are facing because of the conflict it creates."

How is there a conflict, and why would only some of the dead face judgment while the rest are raised to physical life on the earth?

All the physically dead will face judgement, and I believe that happens at the same time as seen in Revelation 20:13. However I don’t think Revelation 20:13 is the same event as the Revelation 20:5 rest of the dead living again after the thousand years are finished. Satans little season happens between these events.

Do you believe any who have physically died in unbelief will be of Christ's resurrection life?

No, I think if someone has physically died in unbelief they are as the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.
But again I don’t think physically dead people are in view in Revelation 20:4. I could be wrong but I would need to see an explanation that fits with the rest of the dead living during Satans little season.

Or you could go with the two different millenniums idea but then I suppose we could argue everybody is in their own personal millennium, believers in one millennium, unbelievers in another, and Satan bound in still another different millennium. And while we’re at it why not create a millennium for Jews and another one for Gentiles.

Ok, I know you don’t believe in the two millennium theory but I thought I would just throw that in here.

 

[rwb]

Because if physical martyrs are in view in Revelation 20:4 then physically dead live again after the millennium in Revelation 20:5. The beheaded and the rest of the dead are part of a group they have both either physically died or figuratively died prior to Revelation 20:4.

I'm not following your argument GB. The beheaded of vs 4 are not of the rest of the dead in vs 5. They are both (4&5) the physically dead, but only those martyred in vs 4 are spiritually alive after they have been killed. So they are no longer of the dead, because death of their mortal body did not kill their spirit that is spiritually alive in heaven through the Holy Spirit in them. The dead in vs 5 are the DEAD because they have died in unbelief. Unlike the martyred in vs 4 who are still alive after physical death, the DEAD shall not live again until time symbolized a thousand years has ended. They will not be raised to live again on this earth, they will be bodily raised for judgment and the second death.

Those John says are alive after physical death were faithful unto death because in life before they died John writes "the lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Not one thousand literal years, but a thousand years that symbolizes time when the saints are given to have part in the first resurrection that is the resurrection life of Christ who was the first to be raised from the physically dead to never die again. Dying in faith, even though they died before Christ came, means they have part in the first resurrection. That means they believed what the Law taught them and the Prophets of Old who foretell of a Messiah/Redeemer who would come to save them.

The conflict happens the very next day after the millennium ends. On that day Satan is loosed but you have the rest of the dead remaining dead. Someone alive on that day will be able to prove the scriptures false if the rest of the physically dead remained physically dead. Just as if Jesus remained in the tomb for four days instead of three, at the start of the fourth day, the scriptures could be proven false, even if He arose later that day.

When this symbolic time a thousand years is finished, there will still be people alive on the earth who have during their life had part in the first resurrection when they were born again. There will also be those John writes as Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian party). These two groups both those who belong to Christ and those called Gog & Magog who belong to Satan are the only people alive on earth after the thousand years have ended. There are NONE during Satan's little season that have been bodily raised from the graves.

Satan was bound at the beginning of this age of Gospel grace through the first advent of Christ. He was bound during this time symbolized a thousand years as the Church on the earth was commissioned to go unto all the earth with the Gospel that whosoever might hear and believe would have eternal/everlasting spiritual life through Christ. He was bound so the nations (Gentiles) who hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through the power of the Holy Spirit would no longer be held in bondage to death. Christ broke that bondage for all who would hear the Gospel and believe in Christ according to grace through faith. Now as the faithful from the nations hear the Gospel and believe death has no more power over them, because they know and are given blessed assurance the life they receive when they have part in the resurrection life of Christ will never end. After our body dies, we go a spiritual body of believers to heaven, and that is the reason John is writing to us. He wants us to know that the power of death through the resurrection life of Christ (the first resurrection) simply means that our spirit will depart from our mortal dead body and go a living (spirit) soul to be with the Lord in heaven, still a spiritual body of believers there.

All the physically dead will face judgement, and I believe that happens at the same time as seen in Revelation 20:13. However I don’t think Revelation 20:13 is the same event as the Revelation 20:5 rest of the dead living again after the thousand years are finished. Satans little season happens between these events.

Why do you think vs 5 and vs 11-15 are not one and the same raising of the DEAD to stand before God at the GWTJ? Satan's little season comes after the thousand years of time given for his binding as the Church is sent out unto all the nations of the world to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. There is much happening during the day(s) when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. Time should be no longer, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets. IMO the mystery that should be finished during these day(s) is that time given for building the spiritual Kingdom of God and Satan's binding have ended. The mystery was that Gentiles who hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God would be fulfilled as the last Gentile to be saved has been born again and has eternal/everlasting life.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:4-6 (KJV) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Colossians 1:26-27 (KJV) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Once the Kingdom of God is complete when the last Gentile to be saved has come in, there is no more purpose for time, symbolized a thousand years, or for Satan to be bound and the Gospel of the Kingdom to be sent unto all the earth. During these days when time shall be no longer for these things, the end of this specific time has come, and then Satan shall have his little season not to prevent the Gospel of the Kingdom from being proclaimed but ultimately he is set free for his and his minions utter destruction. The glory and majesty of God will be on display as all the world will see Christ return in flames of wrath that shall come down from God to make a full end of these days when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound that Christ has come again, and the time of His wrath and judgment day shall commence, as well as the time for His saints to receive their everlasting reward of immortal & incorruptible life on the new earth.

 

[Mr E]

The verse does not say the soldiers that witnessed the renting of the veil and the earthquake with rocks being rent in half were witnesses of what happened three days later. It was AFTER Christ's resurrection the saints arose from graves and went into the holy city, heavenly Jerusalem, and appeared to many, which would have been the multitude of hosts in heaven.

Matthew 27:51-53 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

If these were the same soldiers assigned to guard the tomb of Christ, they could have witnessed the empty tomb, but how could they witness the many bodies of the saints which had died physically being raised from the graves since there is no evidence to my knowledge of a mass physical resurrection of physical bodies of saints going into Jerusalem and appearing to many. Who/where are these many they appeared to? The physical resurrection of Lazarus was so widely known and spoken of that the chiefs priests and Pharisees sought to kill Lazarus again. He was only one man with living witnesses of his resurrection to life after physical death.

The eye witnesses were those who saw this. "And appeared to many" -- the "many" are the eye witnesses. It's not talking about the soldiers at all, in this context. It's talking about who those who came out of the graves appeared to.

 

[Mr E]

Thanks nice song I haven’t heard it before

Once in awhile these song artists surprise us. They tune into something beyond themselves.

No-- you've probably never heard this particular Billy Joel song on the radio. Go figure.

 

[rwb]

The eye witnesses were those who saw this. "And appeared to many" -- the "many" are the eye witnesses. It's not talking about the soldiers at all, in this context. It's talking about who those who came out of the graves appeared to.

Yes, but this many is recorded nowhere to my knowledge of physically alive humans living in Jerusalem of Old witnessing a physical resurrection of the dead. However there is evidence of many in heaven seeing them as they ascend up to heaven a spiritual body of believers. This seems odd since the physical resurrection of Lazarus was widely known and recorded.

Revelation 5:11-12 (KJV) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Daniel 7:10 (KJV) A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

[Zao is life]

It's good that you say it is you guessing. Because Paul disagrees with your "guess." He writes that when our body dies, it is raised a spiritual body, and we know from Solomon that the spirit (breath of life) in man returns to God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Just as faithful saints who have obtained eternal/everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ within are called a body of Christ, so too in heaven faithful saints after physical death are still a spiritual body of believers there.

And the scripture says that it's raised a body - a spiritual body, and the scripture says that it's not raised a spiritual body when it dies. It's raised a spiritual body - for most - long after it dies - on the day of the Resurrection, when Christ returns, as the rest of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage where you are isolating the verse from, says, as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says:

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming.

Whether or not Paul agrees with my guess as to how exactly you came to your strange and unbiblical notion of a 'spiritual' resurrection from the only place in the New Testament that says the body will be raised a spiritual body, makes no difference.

Your interpretation of the statement by linking it to a 'spiritual' resurrection that not one New Testament word or verse talking about resurrection talks about, is false and based on your own thinking, not biblical thinking - because all the words and verses talking about resurrection in the New Testament are talking about the resurrection of the body - including Ephesians 2:6, which as I have already explained to you, is talking about Christ's bodily resurrection and the fact that in spirit, through His Spirit dwelling in us while we are alive in the body here on earth, we have been raised with HIS bodily resurrection.

But you cannot understand this, because you have it linked to the spiritual body that 1 Corinthians 15:44 is talking about, while you ignore that Paul also said that while we are here on earth our bodies are dead because of sin:

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life because of (Christ's) righteousness.
11 Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you.

Sorry, but the resurrection you claim has come will only come when Christ's perousia sets it in motion - because the resurrection that the New Testament talks about is always only talking about the resurrection of the body, no matter which word is being used and in each and every single verse it's found in.

Being quickened by the Spirit of Christ when you were quickened with Him and being bodily raised with His resurrection even while you are alive in your dead body here on earth does not equate with your false notion of a 'spiritual' resurrection, as I have already explained to you, numerous times.

And as I have explained to you numerous times you were quickened (made alive with Christ) when you received eternal life after having been born of the Spirit, and this birth again does not equate with "resurrection" from anything, any more than we were "resurrected" from something when we were born of the flesh.

When you were born into the world you had received life from your parents. You had no life before then. You had not died and had not been "resurrected" from death.

@rwb When you were born of the Spirit of God you received eternal life from God, through Christ's death and bodily resurrection. You had no eternal life before then. You had not died and had not been "resurrected" from death.

So whatever the source is of your illusion of a 'spiritual' resurrection, Paul agrees with me that it's false.

The Resurrection of the Body

M ankind was created to live on the created earth, in a created body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die". That's not God'...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[rwb]

And the scripture says that it's raised a body - a spiritual body, and the scripture says that it's not raised a spiritual body when it dies. It's raised a spiritual body - for most - long after it dies - on the day of the Resurrection, when Christ returns, as the rest of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage where you are isolating the verse from, says, as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says:

You've confused the spiritual body that is of the Kingdom of God in heaven with the physical body that shall be raised immortal and incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. As Paul has shown when the man of faith physically dies their body returns to dust, and is rasied a spiritual body of believers to heaven.

Whether or not Paul agrees with my guess as to how exactly you came to your strange and unbiblical notion of a 'spiritual' resurrection from the only place in the New Testament that says the body will be raised a spiritual body, makes no difference.

I'm happy to be in good company through the Apostle Paul. And also in good company with Solomon who tells us that when our body dies it returns to dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Also in good company with Christ who tells us the life we have when we are born again of His Spirit is everlasting/eternal life that shall never die. You on the other hand with your continual guessing have sadly guessed wrong once again.