Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Marty fox]

Yes, that's what I said. You were sharing 3 verses that deal with a spiritual kind of resurrection, current living in Christ. And the language used was similar to language used in Rev 20, where the context is not about spiritual living, but rather, about physical resurrection.

You don't believe Rev 20 deals with physical resurrection. But as I said, it has to deal with physical resurrection because it refers to the "first resurrection" applying to those who were physically killed by the Beast. There's a similarity in language, and that's because Christ's physical resurrection brings us both spiritual life today and physical resurrection tomorrow. We shouldn't mix them up, in my opinion.

But if Paul says that he was already raised to life while physically living on the earth then the first resurrection is spiritual

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians
2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

This does not take away a future physical resurrection at the end of our world.

Because Christ is in us and we are in Christ who is the King, being kings and priests unto God and reigning with Christ now is a current reality which we experience before the resurrection of our own bodies.

But the thing Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about is what happens to people at the close of the Age who refuse to worship the beast and his image or receive his mark or the number of his name. They will be beheaded. Compare Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4.

Jesus said to all who believe in Him:

"At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." John 14:20

This is why Paul could say,

"Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:11

Jesus bore all our sin in His own body when He died, and He rose again.

Immediately afterwards Paul says,

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." (Romans 6:12)

This is the context:

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?
2 Let it not be! How shall we who died to sin live (zao) any longer in it?
3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;
6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
7 For he who died has been justified from sin.
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with (syzáō) Him.

The above is is not what Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about. Revelation 20:4-6 is obviously talking about souls who had been beheaded and were now currently zao (alive) - Revelation 20:4-6 is calling what it's talking about the first anastasis (the resurrection).

1. Unfortunately for amillennialism, no matter how desperate we don't want the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 to be literal, the only two passages talking about people being killed for refusing to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name are Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4 - and Revelation 20:5-6 are calling this the first resurrection (anastasis).

2. And unfortunately for amillennialism, no matter how desperate we don't want the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 to be literal, the word zao always and only refers to someone living - alive in a body - in each and ever one of the long list of verses where the word is found in the New Testament.

3. And unfortunately for amillennialism, no matter how desperate we don't want the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 to be literal, the word anastasis always and only refers to the actual bodily resurrection of the saints wherever else it appears in the New Testament.

I agree that Christ (the Son of man and the last Adam) IS the resurrection and the life, and the anastasis of the saints, whenever it occurs, will be part of THE one and only resurrection from Adam's death - i.e the Son of man's, the last Adam's resurrection from death. There will be no 2nd sacrifice for sins and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death.

But no amount of desperation to equate the anastasis and the zao mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 with the fact that because Christ lives in us through His Spirit, this means we have already experienced the anastasis and are alive (zao) in a body after we have died (in the case of those mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, after they had been beheaded for the reasons given there), is ever going to force Revelation 20:4-6 to be speaking of the same thing.

Because Christ is in us and we are in Christ who is the King, being kings and priests unto God and reigning with Christ now is a current reality which we experience before the resurrection of our own bodies.

But the thing Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about is what happens to people at the close of the Age who refuse to worship the beast and his image or receive his mark or the number of his name. They will be beheaded. Compare Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But if Paul says that he was already raised to life while physically living on the earth then the first resurrection is spiritual

So the question really is: was the "first resurrection" spiritual or not? I would say not, because where the term is used in Rev 20 it speaks of a physical resurrection of people who were physically killed by the Beast.

But you would say the term is defined by its relation to other passages that speak of spiritual life in the present, because the terms used in describing this spiritual life are similar to Rev 20, right?

It really depends on what the basis is for how you determine the meaning of the "first resurrection?" I go by the context of Rev 20 itself, and find the terms associated with this, like "resurrection, life, and reign" apply both to our physical resurrection and to our life in Christ. But they are not the same thing, since our life in Christ precedes our physical resurrection. Just my opinion, brother....

 

[Christian Gedge]

Now ewq1938 has started his own thread to counter this one? Why can't he just discuss this topic here in this thread instead of creating his own? How strange.

I’ve just come over here when I realised ewq’s stunt.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

we reign in life through Jesus.

Yes, and Jesus reigns over His Kingdom in and through us via the Spirit of Truth that we carry in our earthen vessels

When I read Rev. 20:4 it means, IMO, that those reigning are the martyrs and believers who have died and gone to heaven. (The first resurrection) Yes?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I’ve just come over here when I realised ewq’s stunt.

I wouldn't call it a "stunt" necessarily. When you enter into a conversation with the thread beginning under a false assumption, you may want to begin one with what you think is the wrong assumption. Also, when a thread is begun with a rejection of your position, it tends to gather like-minded individuals who then wish to appear to have a consensus. It might feel more neutral to begin your own thread. Who cares?

 

[GEN2REV]

When I read Rev. 20:4 it means, IMO, that those reigning are the martyrs and believers who have died and gone to heaven. (The first resurrection) Yes?

When we die physically, we have no more privilege of effecting this world, or our souls, in a positive manner.

I believe those who reign are those who walk this world with Christ, carrying His Spirit and His Truth in our fragile vessels; in danger every day of losing our lives and having our message silenced.

1 Corinthians 15:24 says that Jesus turns the (already existing) kingdom over to the Father on the last day of this world, when Jesus returns.

All that must align somehow.

I believe it does in the scenario of Christ reigning upon this earth through True Believers who live to spread HIS message and walk in HIS ways, ever-defying evil and the prince of darkness that rules the majority of those who are alive upon the earth today.

Though the sheep are scattered far and wide, as strangers in a strange land, the Light of Christ's kingdom reigns, and the darkness of that land cannot comprehend it.

 

[Marty fox]

When I read Rev. 20:4 it means, IMO, that those reigning are the martyrs and believers who have died and gone to heaven. (The first resurrection) Yes?

Paul states that we are already reining in life now. I believe that it is showing that we don’t stop reigning even when we die

 

[WPM]

I wouldn't call it a "stunt" necessarily. When you enter into a conversation with the thread beginning under a false assumption, you may want to begin one with what you think is the wrong assumption. Also, when a thread is begun with a rejection of your position, it tends to gather like-minded individuals who then wish to appear to have a consensus. It might feel more neutral to begin your own thread. Who cares?

No. It is petty and infantile and shows he has no rebuttal for the Op we are discussing.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes they had to be raised to life to receive the whit robes.

They are in the Lord's spiritual realm waiting for the last day resurrection

 

[Truth7t7]

KJV Jude 1:9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Michael the archangel, the very same messenger who comes at the end of time and raises the dead to life. Here is depicted Michael raising Moses, but being opposed by the devil who was claiming Moses as a sinner and worthy only of hell and destruction. But the devil didn't take into account God's mercy and grace. Nor His power.

False 7th Day Adventist "Garb" in claims Michael The Arch Angel Is "Jesus Christ"

7th Day Adventism, Ellen G.White (The False Prophetess)

2,000+ self proclamed dreams and visions, sounds like a LSD trip!

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. It is petty and infantile and shows he has no rebuttal for the Op we are discussing.

That's pretty "undemocratic" of you. Isn't it a free world? Why can't individuals make free choices without being maligned as "petty" and "infantile?" I thought you don't like to get "personal" and name call others?

 

[No Pre-TB]

No. It is petty and infantile and shows he has no rebuttal for the Op we are discussing.

There is always a rebuttal. But does the party that agrees with the OP accept the rebuttal? No. That’s different. And neither do they that debate against the OP.

It is easier to continue a subject and remain on the same topic unless:
1. The original topics changes or details change
2. The thread is toxic
3. A poster prefers to start a new one from their point of view

I don’t think starting a new one is bad. Changing a title may bring in more opinions too and encourage dialogue.

I think if it happened to me, I’d probably question why it was necessary to do so. But if I was told why, I’d accept it.

I’ll leave with this. I was studying Proverbs yesterday and came across this verse, that I’ve read many times. I think it’s useful here.

Proverbs 6:19
and he that soweth discord among brethren.

We will have disagreements and debates, but let’s not stir up conflict with each other. I’ve been guilty of it. Most here have. We are all passionate in eschatology but don’t let that passion cause love to take a 2nd seat.

 

[WPM]

There is always a rebuttal. But does the party that agrees with the OP accept the rebuttal? No. That’s different. And neither do they that debate against the OP.

It is easier to continue a subject and remain on the same topic unless:
1. The original topics changes or details change
2. The thread is toxic
3. A poster prefers to start a new one from their point of view

I don’t think starting a new one is bad. Changing a title may bring in more opinions too and encourage dialogue.

I think if it happened to me, I’d probably question why it was necessary to do so. But if I was told why, I’d accept it.

I’ll leave with this. I was studying Proverbs yesterday and came across this verse, that I’ve read many times. I think it’s useful here.

Proverbs 6:19
and he that soweth discord among brethren.

We will have disagreements and debates, but let’s not stir up conflict with each other. I’ve been guilty of it. Most here have. We are all passionate in eschatology but don’t let that passion cause love to take a 2nd seat.

We are talking about a fresh thread that was not toxic. Marty started a thread on Tuesday at 5:04 PM and EWQ started another thread on the same subject 50 mins later on Tuesday at 5:54 PM. Sorry, but that is petty and infantile in my opinion. It was a stunt, as Christian stated. If you consider that normal and mature then I beg to disagree. It is childish.

 

[Timtofly]

Which is it?

Nothing that you keep coming up with as an excuse to attack my character, instead of offering a different opinion or interpretation.

 

[Timtofly]

But if Paul says that he was already raised to life while physically living on the earth then the first resurrection is spiritual

That is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying there is a spiritual birth. The spiritual birth changes one's relationship with God. It is a spiritual change, not a physical one.

The physical change and seated with Christ happens when the soul leaves this body for the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. The spiritual birth places us in Christ. Physical death places us physically in Paradise with Christ.

 

[Christian Gedge]

in the scenario of Christ reigning upon this earth through True Believers who live to spread HIS message and walk in HIS ways, ever-defying evil and the prince of darkness that rules the majority of those who are alive upon the earth today.

Though the sheep are scattered far and wide, as strangers in a strange land, the Light of Christ's kingdom reigns, and the darkness of that land cannot comprehend it.

Paul states that we are already reining in life now.

Hmmm, you’re right. I envision the Church on earth as an outpost of the heavenly Kingdom, so in that sense we are reigning here now like you say. But, getting back to the last part of verse 4: “They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” How are you interpreting, “They came to life?”

 

[GEN2REV]

Hmmm, you’re right. I envision the Church on earth as an outpost of the heavenly Kingdom, so in that sense we are reigning here now like you say. But, getting back to the last part of verse 4: “They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” How are you interpreting, “They came to life?”

Forgive me for not having time at the moment to go to the passage and give it a good read, in context, etc., but I would surmise, off the cuff, that it could be referring to the Holy Spirit inspiring (in-spiriting) those who God chooses to inspire.

Jesus tells us that He IS Life and that His Words are Eternal Life. He tells us in John 14:21-23 that He comes to live inside of us (to make His home with us) when we love Him and are obedient.

Maybe the very symbolic book of Revelation is referring to the quickening (the giving of spiritual Life) of those whom God chooses to quicken.

Jesus does appear to refer to those who do not have the Spirit as the dead.

Luke 9:60
"And Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go and preach the kingdom of God."

 

[Christian Gedge]

Scripture is clear as to what event results in us reigning with Christ and that is when we become spiritually saved/born again. That is shown clearly in passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 and the others you referenced in your OP. And the souls of the dead in Christ go to heaven when they die and they continue to reign with Him there.

So, our 'born-again' experience is the first resurrection? What about our 'go to heaven' experience? Is that a part of the first resurrection?

 

[WPM]

So, our 'born-again' experience is the first resurrection? What about our 'go to heaven' experience? Is that a part of the first resurrection?

A lot of people forget, Christ did not only defeat sin through His sinless life, atoning death, and glorious resurrection, He also defeated death, Hades, the devil and eternal punishment. None of these therefore will hold dominion over the believer ever again.

Before the resurrection the redeemed dead were forced to stay in Hades awaiting the defeat of sin, death, Hades and Satan. The limitations that once held God’s people from the presence of God now restrain Satan so that he cannot access heaven any more to accuse the elect. Jesus opened heaven up to the redeemed (both living and dead) when he defeated all our great enemies. He consequently emptied Abraham's bosom and took the dead in Christ in heaven.

So, I would say the reigning with Christ in heaven could only happen after He had conquered every enemy of righteousness. Jesus taught in John 11:25, saying, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

This is speaking of the resurrection life that can be enjoyed in this life through faith.

• Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilled every lofty demand that the law required Him to achieve.
• He achieved every demand that His Father demanded off Him.
• He satisfied every demand justice required of Him.

He paid the penalty for your sin in full. Justice was satisfied. He took upon Himself your punishment. He stood in your stead. The penalty has already been paid. Believers are no longer in condemnation.

Jesus testified in John 16:11: “the prince of this world is judged.”

The devil is already judged. He is not waiting to be judged. He is already been condemned to his eternal doom.

In John 12:31-33 Christ predicted, shortly before He defeated the power of Satan at the cross, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

Satan being cast out of heaven means his seat of accusation against believers before God is gone forever. He cannot accuse you before the throne of heaven anymore, because your penalty is fully paid. The only thing he can do is point the finger to you directly and hope that you are stupid enough to listen to him.

Here was the time of his casting down - after the cross. Here was the time of the unblinding of the nations (the Gentiles). Here Christ gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 20:1-5 parallels Revelation 12: "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

This is the authority Jesus secured through His resurrection. He cast Satan out of heaven and then restrained him with spiritual chains so that the Gospel could enlighten the nations. Satan's defeat came after the resurrection.