Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
After death? The resurrection. But that isn't the issue either. We all recognize the future hope of a resurrection... Is death itself we are confused over. First example. Most believe one his straight to heaven immediately after death. Then they leave heaven and are rejoined to their bodies at the resurrection. Yet that isn't how scripture describes things. If one is already in heaven having a good time, what is the hope of resurrection?
One could ask, if our bodies are dust and spread in bits and pieces all over creation, with what do we see, hear, taste, touch and smell? How do we speak? Now I know you will have an answer for this, but I'd really like it to be from scripture, and explain why Solomon and others said we wouldn't be doing any of those things in death. Well be asleep. Unconscious. Totally unaware of anything taking place anywhere. That's how the Bible describes death. In numerous places. And Christianity speaks as if those scriptures are error, and the prophets who spoke those words liars.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
If it's taken literally as you would like me to do, then there are millions of people who have been sitting under an altar in heaven not permitted to speak or move until the resurrection. And some have been there for 2000 years, at least so the story goes.
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GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Yes, and Jesus reigns over His Kingdom in and through us via the Spirit of Truth that we carry in our earthen vessels.
And He turns this present Kingdom over to the Father on the Last Day. 1 Corinthians 15:24
I have come to believe that Rev. 20 is a highly symbolic re-telling of 1 Corinthians 15:21-27. That is the only way it aligns with all the other main eschatological (end times) passages of Scripture.
Great observation. It interesting when Paul says "22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Are you saying Paul got his hands on one of the letters written in the 90's before he died in 65? How did this time travel work?
You are taking a concept John wrote, and claiming Paul was talking about the same concept.
Do you even know the difference in being made alive in one book, and how Paul was using it in another book?
Here is the difference. Paul says those currently alive were made alive. John says those currently dead were made alive.
So Paul was not referencing Revelation 20:4, even if he could. Can you point out the exact moment those physically dead people were made spiritually alive? It was the instant they severed their head from their body. Now months later, you claim they were spiritually made alive? Are you saying they did not exist period, between the time they were physically dead and spiritually made alive at your point of judgment? What happened to just getting their physical body back as a first resurrection? They were spiritually dead when they were born. They were spiritually dead when they cut off their head. Now they are judged, but only spiritually alive? Why were they not spiritually alive at the point of physical death, as no where does it state they were in sheol, waiting for their spiritual birth? John calls it the first resurrection, and they are given life. That means a physical body. Paul states we are spiritually alive at our spiritual birth. We are even still physically alive. So this spiritual resurrection you claim exists, happens after spiritual birth and then spiritual death? At what point does a Christian ever spiritually die, once spiritually born? Please explain that one, before messing up what a physical death and physical resurrection are.
Amil are so desperate to have a single physical resurrection, that they contradict themselves declaring some are spiritually resurrected now, and no one is spiritually resurrected later. Really? If the first resurrection is only spiritual, then surely your second resurrection can only be spiritually as well. So there never is a physical resurrection period. You cannot deny a resurrection is physical and then say it suddenly becomes physical on a whim. Every single case of a resurrection was physical. Name one spiritual resurrection defined as that, without you adding spiritual to the text yourself.
Being made alive is not a resurrection. The fact it is described as the first resurrection makes it a resurrection. Being made alive happens at conception. Giving birth is making them alive. We get that being made alive spiritually happens to those physically alive. How many have been made alive spiritually while waiting in sheol? If a soul is waiting for a resurrection, they are not waiting to be made spiritually alive. They already are spiritually alive. They are waiting to be physically brought back to life.
Certainly the rest of the dead in sheol are not waiting to be made spiritually alive, are they? Do you let those in sheol have eternal life and avoid the LOF? If they missed being made spiritually alive as you allege, are you saying they will at one point be made spiritually alive and become sons of God? That is what Paul claims, that those alive physically can be made alive spiritually, and become sons of God. Can you explain to me why all Amil here agree with you that those in sheol will also one day be made spiritually alive and become sons of God, since you deny this is physical, but literally becoming a son of God. Should we start using the term universalism with Amil?
Either this resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is physical, or you all support those in sheol as all being made spiritually alive as that is how you define this resurrection, they all are waiting for. And to suddenly change from spiritual to physical is being disingenuous.
Then how about Mosses and Elijah appearing with Jesus at the transfiguration?
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My point is that the three events that Paul mentions reigning in life, raised with Christ and seated in the heavenly realms are spiritual. John mentions these same three events in revelation 20:4 thus they are spiritual as John doesn’t say that they are physical.
I’m not saying that Paul is directly taking about revelation 20:4 but just teaching about the same events. Paul was talking to people alive as was John but John was showing that even though you die physically you still reign spiritually.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Elijah didn't die... Moses was resurrected. Both types to what is going to take place at the second coming. Those alive that are in Christ taken, changed, those in Christ that are in their graves, resurrected.
Mosses resurrected?
Luke 23:43
“Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’”
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” – 2 Corinthians 5:8
2 Sammual 12:23
But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's not at all what he was saying. Can you just let the adults discuss this and keep your childish comments to yourself?
Paul said that those who were "dead in trespasses and sins" were made alive (spiritually). Did you just skip that part?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Not the same events. Paul was talking about the present day he was living in. The concept is not even the same.
For instance in the last few years we have been bombarded by the "woke crowd". Apply that to the same concept of being made alive. That should be no problem as you spiritualizing the point.
Paul also claimed we are literally physically seated with Christ in Paradise. Not just a spiritual concept via your interpretation. We have a permanent physical body waiting when this temporal body is left on earth. Why would you say it is just a spiritual phenomenon, when Paul also declares a physical phenomenon? Paul could literally say seated with Christ, not just seated in Christ. We are symbolically in Christ, not literally in Christ. We are seated together, because we are quickened with Christ. The sitting part happens when we get to Paradise. We physically arrive in Paradise, because we have been spiritually placed in Christ. Paul is claiming both a spiritual and physical reality.
John is not declaring a blanket phenomenon on the whole church. John is saying a finite specified group of beheaded humans are given a physical resurrection. They are not found in heaven or Paradise. They are alive on earth and reign on earth with Jesus as King. No verse even declares a spiritual connection nor being glorified. They are not given robes of white. It never states they are spiritually in Christ. Being made alive means one is no longer bound by death. This is not even a spiritual birth into God's family. The point is they were redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Their names remain in the Lamb's book of life. Many here want to make them more than what they actually are.
They are literally the left overs of the final harvest. They are not the church. They are not the 144k. They are not the sheep. They are not even the wheat. They are merely the beheaded, meaning they literally had their head severed from their body. That is not a spiritual symbolic phenomenon. There is no spiritual precedence about having one's head chopped off. This is the last ditch effort to escape the mark. The mark being the last ditch effort of remaining in sin as a sinner. These are marked as being expired and living past the point of time being declared over.
Time was declared done, before the 7th Trumpet sounded. The 7th Trumpet declares the end of time. Those with the mark have that mark because time was declared over, and the only condition that now exists is being marked as removed from the Lamb's book of life or the removal of one's head to remain in the Lamb's book of life. The head was not spiritually removed. The physical body literally died and the soul left the building. The soul did not enter God's permanent incorruptible physical body at the point the head was severed. Those souls had to wait for those thrones in Revelation 20:4 to be judged. That is not a mere spiritual judgment. Those were physical thrones with physical beings pronouncing literal judgments. That judgment was that those souls lived and reigned with Christ. To do so, they were given the first resurrection. That resurrection is a permanent incorruptible physical body. The first resurrection is not a spiritual birth. They did not reign in Christ. They reigned with Christ.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
They are later defined as the camp of the saints.
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
That camp of the saints can only reference those in verse 4. Even if you go back to the 144k another mention of saints on earth, no where are these souls from beheaded bodies ever said to enter Paradise at any point. These beheaded are not even mentioned in Revelation 13 at the first mention of the mark. Revelation 15:1-2
"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."
This sea of glass mingled with fire is as close to a description of these beheaded souls we are given. Is this a physical sea of glass, or the description of these souls waiting until the time of judgment in Revelation 20:4? Certainly it is not describing Paradise nor those mentioned in Revelation 7:9. There was not even a beast nor mark prior to Revelation 7.
The mark and beast cannot even be interpreted as a spiritual phenomenon happening every once in a while throughout history. The only time this beast and mark can be a phenomenon is after time is declared over. It is not even spiritual, just because time is up. These humans are literally still alive waiting to be physically killed at Armageddon after the 42 months are over in which was the limited time they had with the mark being applied.
Paul was talking about an ongoing phenomenon present in his day, not some future phenomenon. John was talking about a phenomenon that happens after the Second Coming. People were raised from the dead in the OT, and made alive in Christ. That was spiritually true since Enoch. No one else gets to just walk into Paradise while being translated in the process. All have to feel the effects of their body shutting down, while others watch as they loose consciousness. Enoch was not found, probably could have walked into the Garden of Eden, and decided to stay, since he was already there. Being translated would have given him access. Neither he nor the Garden were found after the Flood. All that was changed in the Flood. Enoch and Paradise did not cease to exist. They both have been in heaven since the Flood.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If you are so concerned, why bother to say anything at all?
Should we just air our private thoughts to get them off our chests?
You have every right to denigrate other posters, so why chide me for posting in threads. I don't even attack other poster's character like you do.
I skip some aspects of the conversation because that side is constantly aired to the point those points have lost all emphasis.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Huh? It seems to me that being concerned is what would make me want to say something. So, I did.
What are you talking about?
You have every right to post, but if you don't have anything productive to offer, which you often don't, then it's best for you to not post in those cases. The question you had asked that I chided you for was utterly ridiculous. When you say things like that it shows that you either have horrible reading comprehension skills or you purposely try to stir things up. Which is it?
You have done that. You just have a bad memory. If you don't like the way I post you are free to ignore me.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Eph 2.4-6 speaks of being "made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions." This is not a physical resurrection. It uses the language of physical resurrection, but we know Paul is speaking of a spiritual resurrection because it is a reference to people who were "dead in transgressions," and not physically dead. Christ spoke of our receiving life now, even before we die. This is the basis of our righteousness today, well before we die and are raised from the dead.
Col 1.3 makes the exact same point, that Christians, before they have died, were "raised with Christ." It is Christ who is seated at the right hand of God in heaven, who represents our hope there, well before we join him at the 2nd Coming.
Rom 5.17 says pretty much the same thing. Our "reign in life" has to do with our ability to display the righteousness of Christ, who alone achieved eternal life. He did so not just for himself but also for all those who receive his spiritual life today. It has nothing to do with physical death, as even you have indicated.
So your assumption has to be that similar language of the resurrection and reigning with Christ in Reve 20 likely refers to our spiritual life today, before we die. I see nothing to indicate that. There is a big difference between being physically raised from the dead and receiving Christ's spiritual life today. But it is all based upon the resurrection of Christ, through which we were enabled to receive his spiritual life even before we die and are raised from the dead.
I do see the connection between all these verses. But I also recognize the differences. The fact we receive spiritual life today does not make the physical resurrection in Rev 20 non-physical. On the contrary, Rev 20 looks entirely like a literal resurrection from death in a physical sense. As others have said, those literally martyred by the Beast are physically killed, and are here raised from the dead physically. I honestly can't see any other way to read it unless an Amillennial presupposition precedes reading it.
Of course Romans, Colossians and Ephesians and talking spiritually that was what I wrote.
My point was that the three events (seated with Christ, reigning in life and raised to life) are also mentioned in revelation 20:4 so they mus be spiritual too. What I believe it is saying is that even if you die for Christ you will immediately be seated with Jesus raised back to life and still reigning. Nothing in revelation 20 states that the resurrection is physical.
Revelation is a warning to the church's of a soon coming persecution and John was giving the church’s hope that even if they die physically they will still reign with Jesus.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's what I said. You were sharing 3 verses that deal with a spiritual kind of resurrection, current living in Christ. And the language used was similar to language used in Rev 20, where the context is not about spiritual living, but rather, about physical resurrection.
You don't believe Rev 20 deals with physical resurrection. But as I said, it has to deal with physical resurrection because it refers to the "first resurrection" applying to those who were physically killed by the Beast. There's a similarity in language, and that's because Christ's physical resurrection brings us both spiritual life today and physical resurrection tomorrow. We shouldn't mix them up, in my opinion.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
KJV Jude 1:9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Michael the archangel, the very same messenger who comes at the end of time and raises the dead to life. Here is depicted Michael raising Moses, but being opposed by the devil who was claiming Moses as a sinner and worthy only of hell and destruction. But the devil didn't take into account God's mercy and grace. Nor His power.
First that is an assumption, and second Michael doesn't raise anyone from the dead only God can do that.
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