Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Truth7t7]

But, I believe our born again experience is how we spiritually have part in His resurrection (the first resurrection). I would say in terms of what John was writing about in Revelation 20, our souls going to heaven when we die is part of having part in the first resurrection. But, of course, it's only those who are born again whose souls go to heaven when they die. Once someone's soul goes to heaven they then live and reign with Christ there. That is what I believe Revelation 20 is talking about.

"False"

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Timtofly]

All verse 5 says is that the rest of the dead are raised after the thousand year.

Are you saying all the dead will enter the kingdom at some point?

 

[Marty fox]

Are you saying all the dead will enter the kingdom at some point?

Of course not they rise after the thousand years the last section of chapter 20 shows what happens to them

 

[Timtofly]

So if were in Christ then we are reigning with Christ

In Christ, Christ is reigning, not us.

The point is a co-reign along side of Christ. The church is still in Christ co-reigning with those on earth for 1,000 years. The church is not on earth during the 1,000 years.

We are not currently reigning on earth over any one. The church tried that and failed. It was called the dark ages. Seated in heavenly places is just that, in heaven, not on earth. The vast majority of the Church is in Paradise with Christ. We are not. We are only in Christ spiritually.

The kingdom is without observation now, because the King is not on earth. The Millennium is not the here and now, as Jesus as King will be on earth, and the kingdom will be observable, after the Second Coming.

Those beheaded will be resurrected and reign with Jesus, not in Jesus.

 

[Marty fox]

In Christ, Christ is reigning, not us.

The point is a co-reign along side of Christ. The church is still in Christ co-reigning with those on earth for 1,000 years. The church is not on earth during the 1,000 years.

We are not currently reigning on earth over any one. The church tried that and failed. It was called the dark ages. Seated in heavenly places is just that, in heaven, not on earth. The vast majority of the Church is in Paradise with Christ. We are not. We are only in Christ spiritually.

The kingdom is without observation now, because the King is not on earth. The Millennium is not the here and now, as Jesus as King will be on earth, and the kingdom will be observable, after the Second Coming.

Those beheaded will be resurrected and reign with Jesus, not in Jesus.

Yet Paul said this.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

 

[Timtofly]

Of course not they rise after the thousand years the last section of chapter 20 shows what happens to them

But those beheaded reigned on earth. Every one else was dead. Your logic means no one was alive on earth for 1,000 years. They are either in heaven or in a state of death.

That is the whole point about Revelation 20. All of Adam's flesh was killed leaving no one behind. If no one was resurrected to reign with Christ on earth, then Jesus was the only one sitting on earth for 1,000 years.

Where did those people come from at the end, and was Jesus the only one in the camp of the saints? Is that your resurrection at the end, they came out of Death, to be burned with fire all over again?

Revelation 20 says nothing about people constantly dying in this 1,000 years, and you claim no one is even on the earth. The verse says all the rest of the dead had to wait in death, until a chance at a resurrection. Yet none of them will be given life and reign with Christ. Obviously the reigning on earth was over when their chance at eternal life happened.

 

[rwb]

Yes, did you? None of the accounts match what is found in Rev 20. Paul never talks about people having their heads cut off then those same people having a resurrection. Paul is talking about something completely different. The beheaded saints die physically and literally in the GT for refusing the mark etc.

They were martyred for their faith in life, during the period of time John symbolizes a thousand years. It is in this age (redemptive history) that one hears the gospel and by grace through faith in the power of the Spirit believe. That is when they lived and reigned with Christ. They had to have part in the first resurrection in time because John tells us he that has part in the first resurrection have both [reigned] and [shall reign] with Christ a thousand years. Because the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ, we spiritually partake of in life to live forever. We find those martyred, being faithful to the Word of God (gospel) who before death "lived and reigned" with Christ a thousand years, but John also speaks of some who are blessed and holy who "shall reign" with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This seems to prove the thousand years symbolizes TIME from the first advent of Christ until time shall be no more, or there shall be no more delay (Rev 10:5-8). John's vision shows two separate groups of believers living at different times, but both reign with Christ a thousand years, and though it's difficult to understand in our translations, both reign with Christ a thousand years because the thousand years is the first resurrection, we must have part in to live with Christ. How can that be unless a thousand years is symbolic of TIME?

John first sees martyred souls of faithful saints. They live and reign with Christ a thousand years, and when the thousand years are finished the rest of the dead will live again for judgment. There won't be a literal ONE thousand years after this because the thousand years are when we must have part in the first resurrection to be saved from the second death. The first resurrection is to partake in the resurrection life of Christ.

Revelation 20:4-5 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

After this entire New Covenant age of TIME, symbolized a thousand years expires Satan will be freed from his pit for a "little season". This time is not counted with the symbolic thousand years, because the time for proclaiming the gospel has finished, which the thousand years represent, and the Kingdom of God complete. Satan will be loosed just long enough to gather his deceived, Gog - antichrists, and Magog - antichristian together and the fire of God from heaven will come down to destroy them all.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course not they rise after the thousand years the last section of chapter 20 shows what happens to them

But this resurrection is a blessing, not a condemnation. The first resurrection is only granted to those who are not tossed into the lake of fire.

Living again is the first resurrection in both cases. John never defines "living again" as being tossed into the LOF.

If there is a first resurrection at the end it would be to eternal life with Christ.

Amil want to take these verses and claim one single hour of resurrection. That cannot happen, because Lazarus was already the hour that came for the first resurrection.

Jesus said the hour is coming and already is. Jesus never said the hour was thousands of years away.

 

[Timtofly]

Yet Paul said this.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Abraham reigned in Christ, not with Christ. Why would that change at any point between Adam and now?

 

[Marty fox]

But this resurrection is a blessing, not a condemnation. The first resurrection is only granted to those who are not tossed into the lake of fire.

Living again is the first resurrection in both cases. John never defines "living again" as being tossed into the LOF.

If there is a first resurrection at the end it would be to eternal life with Christ.

Amil want to take these verses and claim one single hour of resurrection. That cannot happen, because Lazarus was already the hour that came for the first resurrection.

Jesus said the hour is coming and already is. Jesus never said the hour was thousands of years away.

The rest of the dead are the ones raised after the thousand years at the end of revelation 20 they go into the lake of fire

I don’t claim them in one single hour

 

[Marty fox]

But those beheaded reigned on earth. Every one else was dead. Your logic means no one was alive on earth for 1,000 years. They are either in heaven or in a state of death.

That is the whole point about Revelation 20. All of Adam's flesh was killed leaving no one behind. If no one was resurrected to reign with Christ on earth, then Jesus was the only one sitting on earth for 1,000 years.

Where did those people come from at the end, and was Jesus the only one in the camp of the saints? Is that your resurrection at the end, they came out of Death, to be burned with fire all over again?

Revelation 20 says nothing about people constantly dying in this 1,000 years, and you claim no one is even on the earth. The verse says all the rest of the dead had to wait in death, until a chance at a resurrection. Yet none of them will be given life and reign with Christ. Obviously the reigning on earth was over when their chance at eternal life happened.

I never claimed that no one was on earth we reign with Christ now spirituall while on the earth and in heave.

No where does revelation say that the ones beheaded reign on the earth. It doesn’t mention Jesus on the earth either or even Jesus being in the camp of the saint.

 

[Marty fox]

Abraham reigned in Christ, not with Christ. Why would that change at any point between Adam and now?

Because things changed at the cross

 

[Timtofly]

The rest of the dead are the ones raised after the thousand years at the end of revelation 20 they go into the lake of fire

I don’t claim them in one single hour

No verse says they are resurrected, nor live again.

John claims the dead were cast into the LOF, not the living.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

You don't even give those beheaded a resurrection yet they live again and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Live again is never mentioned about those dead at the GWT, but you assume they live again. Why a resurrection when not mentioned, but you reject the resurrection when presented?

 

[Timtofly]

I never claimed that no one was on earth we reign with Christ now spiritually while on the earth and in heaven.

No where does revelation say that the ones beheaded reign on the earth. It doesn’t mention Jesus on the earth either or even Jesus being in the camp of the saint.

So no Second Coming ever in the future? You claim Jesus never walks on earth again. That is pretty dogmatic. Jesus walked on earth the first time. It is pretty clear a Second Coming would mean the same as a first coming.

Do you need words on a page to prove something in your heart and mind?

Have you heard of a resurrection happening any where else besides on earth?

How can a resurrection send a soul to heaven? That is what happens at death. Seems straightforward that a resurrection gives a soul a body to live on earth. Why do Amil get those 2 separate phenomenon mixed up?

Revelation 20 never uses the words: Second Coming. Since you deny even the camp of the saints is on earth, calling a Second Coming is just as much a taboo as any other point you cannot find written in Revelation 20.

Because things changed at the cross

Christ is currently not on earth. We are not here with Christ.

Abraham was in Christ because Christ was not here on earth with Abraham. Except the times Christ visited Abraham in person.

Now Abraham is with Christ, while we are in Christ. Certainly we are not with Christ, and you claim Christ never comes back to earth ever.

 

[Marty fox]

No verse says they are resurrected, nor live again.

John claims the dead were cast into the LOF, not the living.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

You don't even give those beheaded a resurrection yet they live again and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Live again is never mentioned about those dead at the GWT, but you assume they live again. Why a resurrection when not mentioned, but you reject the resurrection when presented?

Verse 5 says that they are resurrected and I do give the beheaded ones a resurrection you keep say I say things that I don’t.

 

[Marty fox]

So no Second Coming ever in the future? You claim Jesus never walks on earth again. That is pretty dogmatic. Jesus walked on earth the first time. It is pretty clear a Second Coming would mean the same as a first coming.

Do you need words on a page to prove something in your heart and mind?

Have you heard of a resurrection happening any where else besides on earth?

How can a resurrection send a soul to heaven? That is what happens at death. Seems straightforward that a resurrection gives a soul a body to live on earth. Why do Amil get those 2 separate phenomenon mixed up?

Revelation 20 never uses the words: Second Coming. Since you deny even the camp of the saints is on earth, calling a Second Coming is just as much a taboo as any other point you cannot find written in Revelation 20.


Christ is currently not on earth. We are not here with Christ.

Abraham was in Christ because Christ was not here on earth with Abraham. Except the times Christ visited Abraham in person.

Now Abraham is with Christ, while we are in Christ. Certainly we are not with Christ, and you claim Christ never comes back to earth ever.

You constantly keep saying I claim things that I do not say

I don’t deny a second coming and I don’t deny that the camp of the saints is on the earth.

 

[jeffweeder]

You constantly keep saying I claim things that I do not say

I don’t deny a second coming and I don’t deny that the camp of the saints is on the earth.

He never endeavors to understand what one might be saying.

 

[rwb]

So no Second Coming ever in the future? You claim Jesus never walks on earth again. That is pretty dogmatic. Jesus walked on earth the first time. It is pretty clear a Second Coming would mean the same as a first coming.

Jesus will not walk on this earth again! When He returns the second time it will be to gather together His Church from this earth, where the Church will meet Him in the air, and be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible until the fiery wrath of God that burns up the first heaven and earth is over. Then the new heaven and new earth will come down from heaven with the holy city New Jerusalem prepared as a bride adorned for her husband where the Lord and His faithful Church will walk with Him forever.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

How can a resurrection send a soul to heaven? That is what happens at death. Seems straightforward that a resurrection gives a soul a body to live on earth. Why do Amil get those 2 separate phenomenon mixed up?

The only resurrection that assures mankind admittance to heaven is the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ. When we partake of Christ in TIME, symbolized a thousand years, then we have part in the first resurrection for those who are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. When we have part in the first resurrection through Christ, we have overcome the second death, and live and reign with Christ in this gospel age, symbolized a thousand years.

Christ speaks of the first resurrection mankind must have part in to overcome the second death when He says the first resurrection man will be equal to angels, who are spirit, not flesh and blood. These spirit souls are children of the resurrection with Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because God is not of the dead, but of the living. If Christ had been speaking of the physical resurrection that shall be on the last day, He would not liken the children of the resurrection to spirit beings (angels). Because the bodily resurrection will be flesh and blood, which cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven which is a spiritual habitation.

Luke 20:34-38 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

[rwb]

"False"

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

It's true the destination of both those who have done good and those who have done evil will be the physical resurrection to either resurrection of life, or resurrection to condemnation, but the physical resurrection is for ALL who are in the graves in the same "hour". Since this bodily resurrection of ALL the physically dead comes at the same "hour" it's impossible to separate the "hour" it is for ALL.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If Daniel 12 is speaking of the physical resurrection on the last day in "the hour coming" why does he write that "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake"? This cannot be the physical resurrection coming in "the hour" because it says only "many awake", not ALL.

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel is speaking of the age of the Messiah coming when after His death and resurrection many graves of saints were opened and ascended with Christ through the Spirit in them to the Holy City New Jerusalem in heaven as living (spirit) souls. Those who witnessed their spiritual resurrection to heaven are the multitude in heaven. The MANY that arose spiritually to everlasting life had part in the first resurrection, spiritual life that is of the resurrection of Christ. The rest will not have part in the first resurrection but will have part in the physical resurrection of ALL physically dead mankind on the last day. Their physical resurrection will be to shame and everlasting contempt. While those physically resurrected to life will have put on incorruptible and immortal bodies of flesh at His coming. (1Co 15:51-54)

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[rwb]

Yes, did you? None of the accounts match what is found in Rev 20. Paul never talks about people having their heads cut off then those same people having a resurrection. Paul is talking about something completely different. The beheaded saints die physically and literally in the GT for refusing the mark etc.

Those beheaded souls John sees in heaven did not have their heads cut off and then have part in the first resurrection. They had their heads cut off because they were part of the first resurrection. Since they died in faith, they are seen ALIVE in heaven, having lived and reigned with Christ while alive on earth during the TIME John likens to a thousand symbolic years. Now spiritually alive in heaven they look forward to the physical resurrection on the last day when their mortal, corruptible bodies will be resurrected and changed to be re-united with their eternal spirit that will return with Christ.