Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Ronald Nolette]

So you believe that the 42 months comes after the judging of the dead and the rewarding of the saints

Well I will not answer for timtofly, but no the 42 months occur before Jesus returns and raises the tribulation saints killed for their witness from the dead so their souls and spirits can be rejoined with their bodies.

 

[rwb]

Then you deny the very words God used in His inspired Word. The word mark for the mark of the beast is charagma- and it is a physical stamp or imprint. That is just the way it is.

And you seem to forget that when teh mark is established people are going to openly worship Satan. That is because God will have sent the strong delusion so people will believe a lie!

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

I've got a newsflash for you, people have been worshipping Satan since the dawn of mankind!

 

[rwb]

Jesus is the Resurrection, But Revelation is not talking about Jesus resurrection, but the resurrection of the dead Jesus promised. Just like after the last Satanic rebellion- all the dead will be rejoined with their bodies to be cast into the lake of fire. You have to learn to keep things in context. Every time the word resurrection appears, it will not refer automatically back to Jesus' resurrection. You need to relearn context and find out the who, what, when, where, and why of whom the passage is speaking of.

Bring this passage to any English teacher. They will tell you it is talking about those who had died for refusing to take the mark.

Those who understand the first resurrection will tell you these saints died for their faith in Christ, who is the first resurrection, because He is the resurrection and the life, and not even death can keep us from Him.

There are only two resurrections mentioned in Scripture, they are the bodily resurrection of all of humanity in the hour that is coming when all who are in the graves (physically dead) hear His voice, some come forth to resurrection of life, the rest come forth to the resurrection of damnation. This is the only physical resurrection spoken of in Scripture.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The other resurrection Scripture speaks of is the first resurrection. I know you want this to be a physical resurrection, but you have no way to prove that because as I have said there is only ONE physical resurrection and that is when Christ comes again when the thousand years have expired.

Fortunately, John gives us more information regarding the "first resurrection." He says that only those who partake of the first resurrection overcome the second death and have lived and have reigned with Christ a (not ONE) thousand years. How can these martyred faithful saints have lived and reigned with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years, if they are not physically resurrected until the thousand years expire?

These martyred saints have already lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. It is in the thousand years that one lives and reigns with Christ, and since they are of the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the thousand years expired; the time the saints have lived and reigned and those who shall reign (future tense) with Him. Satan has his little season, and is destroyed by the fire that comes down from God out of heaven, and next we read of the great white throne judgment, where only the dead, (not those who have lived and shall live with Christ during the thousand years of symbolic time, because they are not of the dead but of the living) are called to be judged by what is written in the books and the book of life.

Revelation 20:7 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

I believe vs. 11 shows those who were burnt up with Satan when the fire came down from God out of heaven, because John writes "from whose face the earth and heaven fled away and there was found no place for them." (Heb 10:27; 2 Th 1:8-10; 2 Pe 3:10-13)

Revelation 20:11-12 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Then John writes that not only the physically dead in the sea, also all the physically dead in the graves (hell) are delivered up and judged. (Jo 5:28-29) The dead are being judged and all who are eternally alive, having part in the first resurrection that is the resurrection of Christ, are there with them but already having immortal and incorruptible bodies we received when the last trumpet sounds and we are physically resurrected to life with Christ forever. (Mt 25:32-33; 1 Cor 15:51-53) And the dead are cast into the eternal flames that is the second death.

Revelation 20:13 (KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Timtofly]

The translations that make it appear these martyred saints must be made to live again is one of the reasons so many believe the first resurrection is physical and seem not to have understanding of the fact that the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ one must have part of in life to be alive after death

We do not need Revelation 20 to tell us the first resurrection is physical. That was a fact since Abraham accepted that if Isaac was killed as a sacrifice, he would be raised back to life. The promise of a physical resurrection was seen throughout the OT. They were all taught that there would be a physical resurrection on the last day. That is why Amil refuse to accept the first resurrection happened with Lazarus, but keep up the OT belief that the only physical resurrection is the last mentioned judgment, which is not a resurrection at all, but the verdict applied for the death that was sentenced upon them at physical death which all have been waiting for in sheol.

The resurrection of Christ was physical, because he physically came out of the tomb. It was the same body for a couple of reasons. That body still had the wounds of the nails and the spear in his side. The other reason is because Jesus was not born with Adam's dead corruptible flesh. His physical body would not ever return to the dust.

That is why Jesus is the Resurrection. Jesus is the Life which is also the spiritual birth into God's family.

It is Amil and their changing Revelation 20 to the here and now who need Revelation 20 to prove that these beheaded symbolize the church. Calling these beheaded the church does not prove the 1,000 years is the here and now. Saying this resurrection is not physical in opposition to all the Scriptures that claim otherwise is only opinion and not Scriptural.

The whole point is the entire dead can be given life after the 1,000 years means they will receive a physical resurrection after the 1,000 years, while these beheaded have a physical resurrection now before the 1,000 years. Being in Christ is not this first resurrection. It has been pointed out many times that being alive in Christ can happen decades before physical death. Why are you trying to claim these physically dead souls are given this life in Christ years after already being dead? Is there a phenomenon where spiritual birth can be granted to souls in sheol after decades of suffering in sheol? That is the logic and literal point you have to make. This resurrection is at least 42 months after some have physically died. You are literally declaring one can be physically dead and then experience this spiritual resurrection in Christ months after their physical death. There is no way you can convince this life giving phenomenon in Revelation 20:4-6 to any reader that this happened while they were still physically alive. That is not misrepresenting your view. That is pointing out the impossibility of your view.

Not only do you deny these beheaded were just physically killed in the 42 months leading up to this first resurrection. You claim that after they are physically beheaded, at some point they are given a spiritual resurrection allowing them to live and reign with Christ. Yet all the church knows that the second birth can only happen prior to physical death. Once one is physically dead many deny they are given a second chance. Yet John in Revelation 20:5 indicates this same resurrection, even your spiritual resurrection is allowed to the dead at the GWT. At the GWTJ some dead may be granted this first resurrection, and escape the LOF. That is if you stick with your point this resurrection is in Christ. That would make the dead at the GWT in Christ at that point.

Now some claim this first resurrection is only physical and all are given physical bodies and then cast into the LOF. But according to your point, many at the GWTJ will be able to avoid the LOF.

I for one agree with you in one point. This first resurrection does prevent the second death. I don't believe these beheaded are symbolic of the church. I don't believe this 1,000 years is symbolic of the here and now. I don't think that all the dead will be granted eternal life at the GWT. I think John was pointing out that if some in sheol wanted to remain in the Lamb's book of life at the GWT, God would allow them to remain, if that was their final decision. Then they would live and reign with Christ on the New Earth, and granted this first resurrection.

This was not written as all would receive a first resurrection after the 1,000 years. It is written in the negative that they did not have an opportunity until the 1,000 years were over.

As for the reason they were beheaded was just that point. This beheading was one's choice to avoid the mark. Take the mark, be removed from the Lamb's book of life for all eternity. Cut off one's head and remain in the Lamb's book of life. But at the point of this decision, there is no going back. It was literally physical death, that keeps one in the Lamb's book of life. That is their testimony and confession of faith. They choose life in Christ at the instant their head is severed from the body. They are not martyred for their faith. They are physically removing themselves from life as a step of faith. They literally only have Revelation 20:4 as the only promise they would be physically resurrected. But to reign with Christ, they had to remove their head. That is currently not a prerequisite for the Second Birth. So this first resurrection is not the spiritual birth you keep claiming it is. No soul is currently reigning with Christ in Paradise without a physical body. That is just plain weird. A physical body sits with a physical Jesus. How can a soul sit and enjoy physical Paradise if it is not in a physical body? Souls probably did not have bodies in Abraham's bosom. But if they did, why would they not after ascending to Paradise when Jesus ascended? Matthew 27:52-53 states they had bodies at that point, then you take those physical bodies away from them?

Comparing Scripture with Scripture, all those in Abraham's bosom are part of this point:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ."

Certainly I will not move those yet beheaded back to Matthew 27:52-53. Certainly I am not saying those since the Cross have to spend a few years in Abraham's bosom and then allowed a resurrection into Paradise. But these beheaded were not immediately granted this first resurrection, at the moment they were beheaded. They all had to wait until this judgment at these thrones. No one over the last 1992 years have had to wait for some judgment. At the instant the soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh, the soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body of those who have accepted the Atonement Covenant of the Cross. This is the first resurrection, and it is physical. And those dead in sheol have been waiting, and will still be waiting 1,000 years after the Second Coming. That is not contradicting any Scripture nor even twisting, changing, or foisting one's opinion on to the words on the page.

 

[rwb]

You hold an Amillennial view, I do not. I have read not only your responses to me but others as well. You have some truth mixed in with (what I believe) confusion and misinterpretation. Of course, you see all of us in a similar way, confused, mixed up. We are all reading the same scriptures and seeing them differently.

Your claims and my comments:

YOU: Those beheaded souls (in Rev. 20) did not have their heads cut off!
ME: Sounds like you are contradicting scripture.

YOU: In Rev. 20, no mention of righteous, resurrected saints, only the dead.
ME: VERSE 4 says the souls were beheaded for their witness of Christ and the Word and " they came alive again".

YOU: The martyred Church already lived. They had partaken in Christ's resurrection while they were still alive. They reigned with Christ in heaven.
Me: Spiritually we are b irn again and when we die we go to be with Christ, but we don't reign with Him up there. His physical reign will be on earth, with all nations under Him. They aren't under His reign now. Yes God is sovereign and in control, but not everyone on earth is a believer. And the Millennial Kingdom will have the entire world composed if Christians only - ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

YOU: Every human will be physically resurrected when Christ returns @ the GWT judgement.
ME: That is the Second Resurrection. The Church will be resurrection during the Great Tribulation (that I believe we are already in).

YOU: 1000 years is symbolic for time already served with Christ in heaven.
ME: NOPE

YOU: Jesus will not walk on earth again!!
ME: YES He will, scripture states His feet will stand I Jerusalem and He will physically reign, up close and personal, be worshipped , visited by nations of the world daily, weekly, annually _ on the throne of David for 1000 years.

YOU: 1st Resurrection was Christ. The Church partakes in His resurrection (spiritually) which is how we are born again and enter heaven when we die.
ME: I AGREE. But concerning the Church, (1 Cor. 15:23 & Rev. 20:5-6 say otherwise)

YOU: The physical body of those of faith is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible and re- united with our spirits with Christ when He comes at the GWT Judgment.
ME: Only disagreement there is with the time of His return, His Second Coming before His Millennial Kingdom.

Of course they were beheaded! I've never said otherwise. What you don't seem to understand is death has no power over those who have partaken of Christ in life. That is to have part in the "first resurrection" the resurrection of Christ SPIRITUALLY! When we have part in Christ's resurrection life we have gone from being dead (spiritually) in trespasses and sins, to alive (quickened) together with Christ (Eph 2:5-7). Since death cannot kill those who have been made alive in Christ, when believers bodies breath their last we go as living (spirit) soul to heaven. Which is where we find these disembodied living (spirit) souls. In life they died for their faith in the resurrection life of Christ, being made by grace through faith to partake of the resurrection life of Christ. Because Christ is the first resurrection of the dead, and can die no more!

The righteous are blessed and holy, have part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them, and they live and reign with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years. Since in life they spiritually died in Christ, death no longer has any power over them. That's why John sees these faithful martyred souls alive in heaven even though they physically died. Now the only resurrection the faithful saints await is the bodily resurrection on the last day. And only poor translations say "they came to life AGAIN"!

You're not reading the verse very carefully. It says "they lived and reigned with Christ". The thousand years symbolize TIME on earth. Heaven is the domain of God, and eternal, without measured time like we have on this earth. It is because in life the LIVED and REIGNED with Christ in TIME, symbolized a thousand years. That means they were faithful unto death, so death could only kill their body, but could not kill their living soul.

There is not one verse from Scripture that says Christ will reign ON the earth! Christ is now, since He ascended to heaven, seated on the throne of His Kingdom in heaven reigning OVER all of creation. No matter how much you wish it to be true, never does Scripture tell us that everyone will be a believer.

Luke 13:23-24 (KJV) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

I don't say all who are in the graves shall be resurrected to either life or condemnation, the Word of God tells us this. There in no mention anywhere in Scripture of a second resurrection. There is only the "first resurrection" for everlasting life, and the bodily resurrection of all who are in the graves at the same hour. Some to be changed from mortal to immortal and the rest to stand before God in the GWTJ to give account for what is written in the books and the book of life.

No, a thousand years NOT 1000 years symbolizes TIME on earth that marches on from the first advent of Christ until the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no longer. Once believers go to heaven after physical death it doesn't matter if we are there for only a minute or for two thousand years, it is all symbolically represented as A thousand years of TIME. For it is in time that we live and reign with Christ, and in time we partake of His resurrection life, and the second death has no power over us.

Jesus will not walk on THIS earth again! When He returns the second time it will be to usher in the new heaven and new earth with the holy city new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband. The prophesy of Jesus walking on this earth was fulfilled when He came to earth a man.

When Christ comes again and believers are changed it will be when the last trumpet sounds, the seventh trumpet which indicates that TIME shall be no more. There will be no more time!

 

[rwb]

We do not need Revelation 20 to tell us the first resurrection is physical.

That's good, because Rev 20 doesn't tell us the first resurrection is physical!

 

[Timtofly]

So you believe that the 42 months comes after the judging of the dead and the rewarding of the saints

The saints are rewarded in Heaven.

Satan's empire is on earth.

So yes, the rewards happen in heaven while Satan is in charge during his 42 months of AoD. If you are waiting until after those 42 months on earth, you have missed out on the rewards in heaven.

Those dead being judged are those alive on earth destroying earth. Not all make it through to the end either.

If Satan is not granted those 42 months, the week of the 7th Trumpet will end and those dead on the earth will still be destroyed in judgment. This is not a judgment on those who have been dead in sheol for 6,000 years. This is a judgment on those in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are either killed then, or over the next 42 months removed from the Lamb's book of life, and given the mark of death. The contrast of this verse is between those alive in Paradise, ie the church, called the saints, and those still alive on earth after the final harvest, called the dead, ie those still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

This is the point on earth, where all nations and kingdoms have been placed under full control. Yes Christ has been reigning over all since the Cross. But the 7th Trumpet is man's submission to that fact. Men will no longer govern themselves. Perhaps the end of free will. But certainly the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those already in sheol are not actively destroying the earth. So this cannot be applied to them. This is not the point Jesus hands back creation. Satan's 42 months have not even happened.

Those on earth are awaiting the Confirmation of the Atonement Covenant, to see if there are some still covered under that Atonement. The only ones covered will be the ones who have their head chopped off. Daniel 9:27 only applies to this time of the days of the 7th Trumpet. Your verse in John 3 has run it's course. This is the moment where this mark signifies living humans are no longer redeemable. Those with this mark have been removed from the Lamb's book of life, that is their judgment and reward that Revelation 11 is talking about. Those with the mark will go through the winepress of God's wrath. Those beheaded will be resurrected at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign.

 

[WPM]

I wish we could have more bible discussion and not corrective grammar lessons. Because it is your poor use of grammar that keeps you drawing erroneous conclusions about Gods seal and Satans marki.

This is why it is pointless talking to most Premils. They are full of insults and name calling.

 

[Timtofly]

Well I will not answer for timtofly, but no the 42 months occur before Jesus returns and raises the tribulation saints killed for their witness from the dead so their souls and spirits can be rejoined with their bodies.

I know that you think that. But most have the church removed by the 7th Trumpet. You place Revelation 13 before the first Seal. Or you think the Second Coming has nothing whatsoever to do with the Seals or Trumpets.

You do realize that Revelation 19 is after God's wrath of the 7 vials, no? Armageddon is not the Second Coming. For one it is too obvious, thus not a thief in the night event. For two, it is after all on earth are dead. They have all been removed from the Lamb's book of life. No one still on earth is redeemed. All the redeemed left by chopping their heads off. Because all those on earth are dead in that one hour, before the Millennium literally starts. Even the 2 witnesses, who are not the church, have left earth. The church does not go around chopping peoples heads off. That would be the alter call of the 2 witnesss. Like John the Baptist, they have a special ministry on earth. John the Baptist was a literal human. Not figurative of the entire Church body of his time. John the Baptist had a ministry of repentance and water baptism and was beheaded. The 2 witnesses have a ministry of repentance and beheadings, but are not said to be beheaded themselves. But even if that is how they die, they are resurrected prior to Armageddon, and those beheaded are resurrected after Satan is bound at Armageddon.

 

[Timtofly]

I've got a newsflash for you, people have been worshipping Satan since the dawn of mankind!

Not so. It has been since mother Eve was enamored with pagan knowledge. Mankind was around way before Eve was deceived.

You do realize that most pagans get confused between mother earth, and mother Eve. Adam declared Eve mother earth as his first declaration of being a sinner. That did not happen on the 8th day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I've got a newsflash for you, people have been worshipping Satan since the dawn of mankind!

Yes, but in the end times it will be an open global welcomed religion. Not like it has been for most of mankind. Satan will no thide behind names like Moloch or Ba'al, He will be openly worshippedin direct opposition to the God of the Bible.

Those who understand the first resurrection will tell you these saints died for their faith in Christ, who is the first resurrection, because He is the resurrection and the life, and not even death can keep us from Him.

There are only two resurrections mentioned in Scripture, they are the bodily resurrection of all of humanity in the hour that is coming when all who are in the graves (physically dead) hear His voice, some come forth to resurrection of life, the rest come forth to the resurrection of damnation. This is the only physical resurrection spoken of in Scripture.

See your lack of understanding grammar makes you err.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If the first resurrection mentioned here is just Jesus, then the saved dead may not be saved for it says right here in plain language that those who did not partake in the first resurrection, the second resurrection has authority over them.

And just simply- As god created language so we can understand and the rules governing language- Verse 5 has to refer back to verse 4- that is grammatic rule. so unless you wish to accuse God of bad grammar, you need to give up this foolish idea this refers to Jesus Or declare that the lake of fire has authority over believers who died as it says here in Gods Word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I know that you think that. But most have the church removed by the 7th Trumpet. You place Revelation 13 before the first Seal. Or you think the Second Coming has nothing whatsoever to do with the Seals or Trumpets.

Well you should ask me what I think before making assumptions and making a fool of yourself. Jesus second coming has nothing to do with the wrath of God poured out.

Jesus second coming is based on Israel finally saying this one thing:

Matthew 23:36-39

King James Version

​

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

You do realize that Revelation 19 is after God's wrath of the 7 vials, no? Armageddon is not the Second Coming. For one it is too obvious, thus not a thief in the night event.

Well Yes Jesus return is after the vials and after the antichrist marshalls the worlds armies at megiddo and marches on Petra- that is when and where Jesus returns.

And the thief in the night applies to the rapture and not the second coming!

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus return is at the end of the 70th week of Daniel.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The rest of your post is too much twisted gobbledy gook to try to unravel and show why you are simply erring in your opinions.

 

[Timtofly]

That's good, because Rev 20 doesn't tell us the first resurrection is physical!

There is no physical resurrection at the GWT mentioned in Revelation 20 either, so you make Revelation 20:4-6 totally pointless as a way out of physical death. You literally have no way out of physical death.

In fact you assume those in Christ never have a physical body, but then without no explanation, suddenly now do. Why is that?

The first resurrection can only be physical. Are you saying the first birth and first death are not physical either?

Why are you not consistent that the first birth, first death, and first resurrection are all physical?

The hour of that last day resurrection was the Cross, when Jesus called out the entire assembly of Abraham's bosom into their physical bodies. That was the first resurrection. You deny the verses prior to your John 5:28-29. The ones that state the hour is already come and will remain until the Second Coming. John 5:24-25 is just as true and point to the same hour.

John clarifies that point in Revelation 20:5

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Their hour is yet to come. If there is no first physical resurrection, then there is no hope of life after physical death. It is not just spiritual life. It is physical life as well. Before the Cross, the spiritual aspect of life was lost to them. They accepted the point they would taste death, and walk through the valley of the shadow of death. Why do you think they were not looking for a physical resurrection? They were not aware of the spiritual birth. That was evident with Nicodemus who had no clue. So you changing the meaning of the first resurrection from physical to spiritual is denying the whole of Scripture. It is also denying the second birth as the life out of spiritual death into Christ. No author of Scripture claims the second birth is this first resurrection. That is all a modern reinterpretation for Amil eschatology.

God does not have to spell it all out in every verse. You all are supposed to understand what relates to the physical or spiritual. Not just go and redefine the terms stated in God's Word.

In every instance of the first resurrection throughout Scripture it is physical. That is the resurrection that was expected. Now all of a sudden, you claim they changed the definition and meaning of that first resurrection?

These beheaded souls were already in Christ spiritually before given life. If not, they would be in sheol waiting for the 1,000 years to be over like the rest of the dead. The rest of the dead were not waiting a spiritual resurrection. They were never spiritually born ever. They probably will not be spiritually resurrected nor born at the GWT.

But all in Christ in Paradise have a first resurrection. That was a phenomenon at the Cross, when their new physical bodies came out of their graves. After the Cross no one entered Abraham's bosom, they immediately had a first resurrection into Paradise physically. Because all Scripture declares the first resurrection is physical. It does not mean one thing here and another thing there, left to the readers imagination or opinion.

 

[Timtofly]

And the thief in the night applies to the rapture and not the second coming!

No it applies to the Day of the Lord. 2 Peter 3:10.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Now what Scripture lines up with and declares the Second Coming as this thief in the night moment?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Now explain how people are still alive on earth after this event, described in the above verses, and it is still Armageddon where no human is left alive, and is not even the same event?

The only similarity is heaven was opened. All the redeemed were already assembled. No one currently on earth at this point will be redeemed or rescued. Armageddon is not the Lord protecting Jerusalem. This is taking back the throne after Satan's 42 months.

 

[Marty fox]

The saints are rewarded in Heaven.

Satan's empire is on earth.

So yes, the rewards happen in heaven while Satan is in charge during his 42 months of AoD. If you are waiting until after those 42 months on earth, you have missed out on the rewards in heaven.

Those dead being judged are those alive on earth destroying earth. Not all make it through to the end either.

If Satan is not granted those 42 months, the week of the 7th Trumpet will end and those dead on the earth will still be destroyed in judgment. This is not a judgment on those who have been dead in sheol for 6,000 years. This is a judgment on those in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are either killed then, or over the next 42 months removed from the Lamb's book of life, and given the mark of death. The contrast of this verse is between those alive in Paradise, ie the church, called the saints, and those still alive on earth after the final harvest, called the dead, ie those still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

This is the point on earth, where all nations and kingdoms have been placed under full control. Yes Christ has been reigning over all since the Cross. But the 7th Trumpet is man's submission to that fact. Men will no longer govern themselves. Perhaps the end of free will. But certainly the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those already in sheol are not actively destroying the earth. So this cannot be applied to them. This is not the point Jesus hands back creation. Satan's 42 months have not even happened.

Those on earth are awaiting the Confirmation of the Atonement Covenant, to see if there are some still covered under that Atonement. The only ones covered will be the ones who have their head chopped off. Daniel 9:27 only applies to this time of the days of the 7th Trumpet. Your verse in John 3 has run it's course. This is the moment where this mark signifies living humans are no longer redeemable. Those with this mark have been removed from the Lamb's book of life, that is their judgment and reward that Revelation 11 is talking about. Those with the mark will go through the winepress of God's wrath. Those beheaded will be resurrected at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign.

Let’s look at it again and see what happens at the 7th trumpet

revelation 7:18
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

And when does this happen?

Now the verses below are after the 3 1/2 years the thousand years and satans release and defeat

revelation 20:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Timtofly]

Let’s look at it again and see what happens at the 7th trumpet

revelation 7:18
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

And when does this happen?

Now the verses below are after the 3 1/2 years the thousand years and satans release and defeat

revelation 20:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

You keep attempting to put the dead from Revelation 11 into the GWT. Adam's dead corruptible flesh is what is judged at the 7th Trumpet. These are living humans. This is the end of the final harvest. These humans are all that is left. These people will end up at the GWT after the thousand years are over.

You are seeing them at two different events. One when they physically die, the other after being dead. The point is all are considered dead, especially after they receive the mark.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Of course they were beheaded! I've never said otherwise.

Okay, misread that one in post 120.
"Those beheaded souls John sees in heaven did not have their heads cut off and then have part in the first resurrection. They had their heads cut off because they were part of the first resurrection."
Still, this statement is in error. Though a born again believer is a new creature spiritually, our relationship is not complete. We haven't received new bodies that we are waiting for bodieslike Christ. So this resurrection has not yet occured.. 1 Cor. 15:23 & Rev. 20:5-6.
Btw, 1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & and 1 Cor. 15:52 has not happened. This is the 1st Resurrection for the Church.

You're not reading the verse very carefully. It says "they lived and reigned with Christ".

I gave 35 English translations that say the came to life again, which is the same thing. You are misreading the text as if It was a past event. Rev. Was written in around 95 AD and so speaks events that happening then (with the Seven Churches) and future end time events (7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 7 Bowls, and surprise, a Millennial Kingdom.
We can go round and round with this ... until one if us just quits - likely me.

There is not one verse from Scripture that says Christ will reign ON the earth!

The belief of the Israelites throughout the Old Testantment was that the Messiah would come and physically rule in Jerusalem and put down sin and evil, in power, glory and judgment. They just had the timing wrong. They thought He was coming just once. They failed to understand that His first coming was as a suffering servant, a lamb, with peace, love and forgiveness, (Isaiah 53). His death was a shock to even the disciples who were disillusioned, defeated ... until His resurrection and they saw Him.
He will return and "every eye will see Him!"
I have discussed topic many times and it is getting tedious to repeat myself over and over so here is the thread. In it you will find the answers to many of you questions.

The Millennial Kingdom

It is important to mention Covenants briefly. Covenants need to be fulfilled, specifically to Israel, to Jesus, to nations and creation during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign. The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10) Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have...

www.christianityboard.com

Christ is now, since He ascended to heaven, seated on the throne of His Kingdom in heaven reigning OVER all of creation.

The world is not filled with the knowledge of the Lord in everyone's mind. Is He ruling all nations? He is sovereign, allowing evil for a purpose. If he was ruling the earth, Russia, China, India and just about every other nation didn't get the memo.
When the sound of the Seventh Trumpet happens, the mystery of God will be revealed, the resurrection takes place, we receive rewards, rhe dead are judged, the Temple in heaven opens, ALL NATIONS become His then the Seven Bowls of wrath are released. He will out down evil and Satan and the earth will be at PEACE LIKE NEVER BEFORE.
NEWSFLASH: THIS HASN'T HAPPENNED YET. All nations will be filled with the knowledge Of the LORD. THERE WILL BE NO OTHER RELIGIONS - ONLY CHRISTIANITY. THAT IS A KINGDOM - ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

There in no mention anywhere in Scripture of a second resurrection.

It is implied in Rev. 20. The First Resurrection is identified and those who participate in that one are blessed. The second death has no effect on them. Why would it say first if there wasn't another? It would just say resurrection if there was no other.

 

[rwb]

Yes, but in the end times it will be an open global welcomed religion. Not like it has been for most of mankind. Satan will no thide behind names like Moloch or Ba'al, He will be openly worshippedin direct opposition to the God of the Bible.


See your lack of understanding grammar makes you err.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If the first resurrection mentioned here is just Jesus, then the saved dead may not be saved for it says right here in plain language that those who did not partake in the first resurrection, the second resurrection has authority over them.

And just simply- As god created language so we can understand and the rules governing language- Verse 5 has to refer back to verse 4- that is grammatic rule. so unless you wish to accuse God of bad grammar, you need to give up this foolish idea this refers to Jesus Or declare that the lake of fire has authority over believers who died as it says here in Gods Word.

My understanding of grammar is just fine. However, you are not making sense! How does the first resurrection, Christ's resurrection, that saves us keep those who are saved in Him from being saved after they die? We are eternally secure in Christ because we have part in His resurrection life. Therefore, when we are bodily resurrected after time shall be no more, we are made whole again with immortal and incorruptible physical body of flesh and spirit = complete living soul.

In proper grammar the context which includes verse 6 must also be read in conjunction with verses 4-5 and the rest of the chapter. Verse 6 calls those who have part in the first resurrection and shall live with Christ a thousand years blessed and holy. Who has ever heard of the DEAD who are the DEAD because they have no part in the first resurrection blessed and holy? No one has, because "the DEAD" are NOT blessed and holy. Looking back at verse 5 we read the DEAD will not live again until the thousand years expire. Why? Because the thousand years are not given for the resurrection of the DEAD, but for those who have LIVED and have REIGNED, and also for those who SHALL LIVE with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years. IOW the verse is telling us the thousand years, symbolizing TIME is for the first resurrection when one must have part to have everlasting life.

You want verse 5 to say the rest of the dead who do not live again until the thousand years were finished is the first resurrection. But that is NONSENSE! Because the DEAD are never blessed and holy, and shall never be priests of God and Christ, and shall not reign with Christ a thousand years because only THE DEAD stand before God at the GWTJ. Verse 6 shows us the blessed and holy have part in the first resurrection, have overcome the second death and shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Only they who have overcome the second death and live with Christ as priests in time (symbolized a thousand years) are of the first resurrection, and are NEVER of the DEAD.

You don't necessarily lack understanding of biblical grammar. But you do lack understanding of biblical truth. You read these verses with your preconceived opinion there are TWO physical resurrections, even though the Bible makes it abundantly clear that there is only one physical resurrection that shall come at the same hour for ALL the physically dead in the graves. Those who have done good, have had part in the first resurrection life of Christ, and live and reign with Him in TIME, which is while physically alive shall be bodily resurrected and changed for life, and the rest who have done evil (have no resurrection life in time symbolized a thousand years) shall be resurrected to stand before God at the GWTJ for condemnation.

This chapter of Scripture can only be properly interpreted if we don't allow our preconceived opinions and lack of understanding of who the first resurrection pertains to, to cloud our mind. It must also be interpreted in a way that does not force contradiction into the Word of God. But that is exactly what you do when you try to force two physical resurrections into this chapter. There is only the first resurrection we must be part of in time, symbolized a thousand years, and the bodily resurrection after time shall be no more. There is nowhere to be found in Scripture two separate bodily resurrections, one for saints and the other for unbelievers. That is a vial interpretation that is forced unto the Word of God and those who embrace this lie have no concern for turning the Word of God into contradictory foolishness.

 

[rwb]

I gave 35 English translations that say the came to life again, which is the same thing. You are misreading the text as if It was a past event. Rev. Was written in around 95 AD and so speaks events that happening then (with the Seven Churches) and future end time events (7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 7 Bowls, and surprise, a Millennial Kingdom.
We can go round and round with this ... until one if us just quits - likely me.

This is where you err. Those translations make no sense because when man while alive partakes of the resurrection life through Christ, the first resurrection, THEY NEVER DIE! Since physical death has no power over those who have died as Christians, why would they need to come to life AGAIN? They would not! That is plain and simply interpreting with a preconceived belief that the first resurrection is physical. It is NOT!

I gave you eleven translations where the translators did not allow preconceived belief to influence their translation of Scripture. I've also shown you why I believe the translators who add "came to life again" cause so much confusion of the rest of the chapter. It's only understanding that these faithful, martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ in time symbolized a thousand years that we understand the first resurrection is NOT physical. Because they were faithful unto death while alive, physical death is not the end for them, it is the beginning of spiritual life in heaven with Christ, with the promise that when time is finished, they will be whole again with immortal, incorruptible body to be re-united to live forever a complete human as we were in the beginning.

It's because in life man partakes of the resurrection life of Christ, the first resurrection, that Christ tells us we need not fear death, because death is simply a transition from this mortal life to spiritual body in heaven. Because there is both a natural body (flesh) and a spiritual body and the two are not the same. Just as in life we are the image of the first man, Adam, so too in death we will be the image of the heavenly, as is Christ, and the heavenly angels, we will be spiritual body. John says souls alive with Christ.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Christ, speaking of the spiritual resurrection for believers after death, says we "are as the angels of God in heaven", because "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Therefore Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive in heaven, just as the angels in heaven who are spirits are alive. If Christ were speaking of the physical resurrection on the last day, He would not say the dead will be as the angels, because believers then will be bodies of flesh, not spirit bodies. When Christ says "in the resurrection" He is speaking of His resurrection and life, the first resurrection of the dead.

Matthew 22:30-32 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[rwb]

The belief of the Israelites throughout the Old Testantment was that the Messiah would come and physically rule in Jerusalem and put down sin and evil, in power, glory and judgment.

Christ did that when He came to earth a man, but they rejected Him. They looked for the promised Messiah to come and usher in a physical Kingdom upon this earth. They were wrong, just as you are wrong to think that Christ will come to set up His Kingdom on this earth. Christ came with His Kingdom, but His Kingdom now in this world is not physical, but spiritual. The only way for mankind to know and enter His Kingdom now is to partake of Christ's resurrection life, "Ye must be born again". He is the first resurrection and the life, and whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die. Because the Kingdom of Christ now is within you, through the Holy Spirit. When man is born of the Spirit of Christ, the eternal life we receive is spiritual, not physical. That's why in death we go as living (spirit) soul to be with the Lord in heaven. We don't have to come to life again! If we are in Him, we are already eternally alive through His Spirit in us.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.