Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[rwb]

but with your scenario that the first resurrection of REv. 20 only refers to Jesus alone- then the passage says that those who are not part of the first resurrection (only Jesus according to you) , the second death has authority over them!

This is true! Whoever is not part of the resurrection life through Christ, the first resurrection have not overcome the second death.

No your grammar is not fine. Go back and look at verse five again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It is yo9u who do not make sense.

The passage is clear- the first dead are part of the first resurrection. Who are these first resurrected? Those who did not take the mark, etc. It is when they are resurrected they live and reign with Jesus for 1,000 years! It is after those 1,000 years that the rest of the dead are resurrected. That is what God inspired to be written.

V 4...."they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Pay close attention to vs 6 because it says only they who have part in the first resurrection, have overcome the second death and shall live and reign with Christ a thousand years. The link between vss. 4, 5 and 6 is the thousand years. In vs 4 we find those who have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, in vs 5 the dead will not live again until the thousand years expire, and vs 6 indicates those who are of the first resurrection have overcome the second death and are those who shall shall be (future) priests of God and of Christ and shall reign (future) with him a thousand years. They are not the dead found in vs 5 because the dead will not live again until the thousand years are finished.

Please explain why John would call the dead holy and blessed? Only those who have lived and reigned with Christ, and those who shall live with Christ are holy and blessed. How do those who do not live again until the thousand years are finished live and reign with Christ a thousand years to be among the first resurrection and holy and blessed?

 

[covenantee]

No I belie3ve in only one- found in Jeremiah 31. Jesus blood is not a covenant , but the sacrifice that confirms the covenant. And the covenant as written has not gone into effect yet. It has nothing to do with Gentiles at all!

We are beneficiaries of what Messiah did on Calvary, but the New Covenant is not for us. those who think so, do so only because they redefine the covenant to make gentiles fit in.

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The New Testament came into force upon the death of its Testator, Jesus Christ.

Explain how the New Testament, which Scripture declares came into force upon the death of its Testator, Jesus Christ, "has not gone into effect yet", and "is not for us".

Thanks be to God that Jesus was not a dispensationalist.

While you're at it, provide just one name of any recognized defender of the true faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries who claimed that the New Testament "has not gone into effect yet", and "is not for us".

Just one name.

 

[rwb]

Hmmm, you’re right. I envision the Church on earth as an outpost of the heavenly Kingdom, so in that sense we are reigning here now like you say. But, getting back to the last part of verse 4: “They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” How are you interpreting, “They came to life?”

Many translations do not say these martyred saints must come to life. Consider for instance KJV that simply says, "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." John sees these martyred souls alive even after death. Because in time (symbolized a thousand years) they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ in time, which a thousand years symbolizes. They went spiritually alive to heaven after physical death where John sees them as living souls.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

They came to life when they accepted Christ spiritually but rev 20:4 is showing that even though they died physically they instantly come to life spiritually the body was killed but not the spirit. The spirit was freed from the body.

I agree Marty but they went to heaven spiritually alive because in time which the thousand years symbolizes, they had part in the resurrection life through Christ, the first resurrection, so they never died even though their body did.

 

[Brakelite]

Sure.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

In this passage John sees the souls of physically dead believers. He makes it very clear that they are conscious.

Then there is Luke 16:19-31 where Jesus talked about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus. The rich man was in Hades and was conscious.

So, what is a soul?

 

[Christian Gedge]

So, what is a soul?

The capital of South Korea?

 

[Brakelite]

The capital of South Korea?

A long time ago I named a puppy Sole. Kept eating boots. But not the answer I was looking either.

 

[rwb]

So, what is a soul?

SOUL
Strong's Greek Dictionary
5590. ψυχή psyche (psychḗ)
Search for G5590 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'

from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

SPIRIT
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. πνεῦμα pneuma (pneûma)
Search for G4151 in KJVSL; in KJV.

πνεῦμα pneûma, pnyoo'-mah

from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

Possessing a soul and spirit means to have life. It's difficult to distinguish man's soul from his spirit. Because the spirit in man is also that which gives life. The spirit in man comes from God. It is life He breathed into mankind in the beginning when He created humans. (Gen 2:7). When a man dies his spirit returns to God either with the Holy Spirit from Christ within or without the Holy Spirit. With the Holy Spirit, man's spirit continues to have life but only though his soul, because his body having no more breath of life returns to the dust from which it came. Humans were created with a body, and spirit (breath of life) and together they became a living soul.

The Holy Spirit that Christ sent for believers is the difference between our natural spirit returning to God after physical death with or without life. Without the Holy Spirit in man, he no longer has life after his body dies. His natural spirit returns to God without life. With the Holy Spirit within man, our natural spirit NEVER DIES. That's why Christ tells us whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. The Holy Spirit remains within the natural spirit of man even though man physically dies. The Holy Spirit will not depart from man until we receive our resurrected immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh when Christ comes again.

Because believers are still spiritually alive after death, the Bible gives depictions of living souls after physical death. This is what John writes of in the book of Revelation when he says he sees souls under the altar, and souls alive in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 14:16 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

These two verses below from Revelation show living souls of believers who were slain for the word of God, and the testimony held. In 20:4 John includes "for the witness of Jesus." I believe there is no mention of being witnesses of Jesus in Rev 6:9 because John is shown a vision of Old Covenant faithful saints who lived and died before the advent of Jesus' ministry on earth. They gave testimony about the promised Messiah who would come, and they believed, but they could not be witnesses of Jesus since they lived and died before He came and defeated death. They are under the altar, not yet in heaven, as a picture of being covered by the blood of Christ according to the Covenant promise. They must wait after physical death in Abraham's bosom, the place for the faithful departed before Christ came. Abraham's bosom is where Old Covenant faithful rested after death until the promised Messiah came to take them to their place in heaven He went to prepare for them and us. (See the parable in Lu 16)

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Marty fox]

If Jesus isn't deity, then why was He killed? Jesus wasn't killed because He claimed to be the Messiah Jesus was killed because He claimed to be equal with God

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Now you've gone completely astray. Under what other covenant besides the new covenant can Gentiles be saved? The new covenant is all about Jesus sacrificing Himself so that people could be saved and have their sins forgiven. He died for Gentiles, too, right?

Have you never read this:

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Well then show me which part of the covenant found in Jeremiah is gone into effect.

This is unbelievably sad for a Christian to say this. You don't understand that the new covenant was put into effect by the blood of Christ and I'm sure you agree that He died for us!

Here is hte covenant. show me which part has to do with Gentiles.


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Was it for His disciples?

Thanks be to God that Jesus was not a dispensationalist.

Yes the Jeremiah Covenant was for the 12.

But once again here is the complete new covenant. Please just sho wme in teh covenant where Gentiles are mentioned?

Jeremiah 31:31-38​

​

King James Version​

​

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Teh covenants belong to Israel. However we the church are beneficiaries as was also foretold. We partake in the blessings thoughy the covenant does not belong to Gentiles.

If this time, you wish to keep up your juvenile diatribes against dispensationalism, I will place you on full ignore. Either write maturely or begone!~

 

[Ronald Nolette]

V 4...."they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Pay close attention to vs 6 because it says only they who have part in the first resurrection, have overcome the second death and shall live and reign with Christ a thousand years. The link between vss. 4, 5 and 6 is the thousand years. In vs 4 we find those who have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, in vs 5 the dead will not live again until the thousand years expire, and vs 6 indicates those who are of the first resurrection have overcome the second death and are those who shall shall be (future) priests of God and of Christ and shall reign (future) with him a thousand years. They are not the dead found in vs 5 because the dead will not live again until the thousand years are finished.

But you woefully ignore the second death does not occur until 1,000 years later. These are resurrected in the first resurrection.

You ignore context that makes this so plain.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If you keep this verse in place and do not ignore it, these who had the mark and were beheaded- were resurrected (stood up again from death).

Then verse 5 says the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years are done. So the resurrection of those trib saints is the 1st resurrection.

This is true! Whoever is not part of the resurrection life through Christ, the first resurrection have not overcome the second death.

That is ture. but that is not what is being written here. that is you forcing another passage into this passage.

Please explain why John would call the dead holy and blessed? Only those who have lived and reigned with Christ, and those who shall live with Christ are holy and blessed. How do those who do not live again until the thousand years are finished live and reign with Christ a thousand years to be among the first resurrection and holy and blessed?

Well as I never said nor agree with the above statement. so this is irrelevant.

The trib saints get resurrected, live and reign with Christ for the 1,000 years. Teh rest of the dead after those 1,000 years are resurrected to the judgment and eternal destiny of the lake of fire.

 

[covenantee]

Yes the Jeremiah Covenant was for the 12.

You said that the New Testament "has not gone into effect yet".

 

[rwb]

Yes the Jeremiah Covenant was for the 12.

But once again here is the complete new covenant. Please just sho wme in teh covenant where Gentiles are mentioned?

Jeremiah 31:31-38​

​

King James Version​

​

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Teh covenants belong to Israel. However we the church are beneficiaries as was also foretold. We partake in the blessings thoughy the covenant does not belong to Gentiles.

If this time, you wish to keep up your juvenile diatribes against dispensationalism, I will place you on full ignore. Either write maturely or begone!~

The same Covenant through the blood of Christ is for Gentiles of faith as well as Jews of faith. Jeremiah's prophesy, according to Hebrews is fulfilled in Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (KJV) After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

FYI - testament is the same word defined covenant in Hebrews.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The New Testament came into force upon the death of its Testator, Jesus Christ.

Explain how the New Testament, which Scripture declares came into force upon the death of its Testator, Jesus Christ, "has not gone into effect yet", and "is not for us".

Then please show me the parts of the New Covenant, written in Gods Inspired Word are now in effect!

Jeremiah 31:31-38

King James Version

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Please sho wme which verses have gone into effect.

And given your attitude, I can agree with you that I am glad you are not a dispensationalist either. You would be a bad fit in most churches that are, as we strive hard to practice loving believers as Jesus said.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You said that the New Testament "has not gone into effect yet".

Show me as I have now asked you twice and posted the New Covenant from Scripture, which parts are in effect yet. It is for the Apostles and all jewish believers, but that does not mean it has gone into effect yet.

If it has please show me:

Jeremiah 31:31-38

King James Version

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The same Covenant through the blood of Christ is for Gentiles of faith as well as Jews of faith. Jeremiah's prophesy, according to Hebrews is fulfilled in Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (KJV) After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

FYI - testament is the same word defined covenant in Hebrews.

Then please show me the passafges that have gone into effect. Below please find the full new covenant as God inspired to be written:

Jeremiah 31:31-38

King James Version

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

YOu agreed with me this is the only new Covenant in the bible, so show me which parts are in effect now.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Even Paul who wrote those words you cited from Corinthians also wrote this:

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

 

[WPM]

No I belie3ve in only one- found in Jeremiah 31. Jesus blood is not a covenant , but the sacrifice that confirms the covenant. And the covenant as written has not gone into effect yet. It has nothing to do with Gentiles at all!

We are beneficiaries of what Messiah did on Calvary, but the New Covenant is not for us. those who think so, do so only because they redefine the covenant to make gentiles fit in.

Your theology undermines Christ, His earthly ministry and His finished work on Calvary. It is an attack on God's truth. It is heretical. It should not be allowed on a Christian forum.

Romans 3:24-25: “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (hilasmos or atonement) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.”

1 John 2:1-2: “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation (hilasterion or atonement) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

1 John 4:9-10: “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation (hilasterion or atonement) for our sins.”

The word propitiation here in 1 John 2:1-2 and 1 John 4:9-10 is the Greek word hilasmos (Strong’s 2434) meaning atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator. In Romans 3:24-25 (Strong’s 2434) it is hilasterion, which refers to an expiatory (place or thing), i.e. (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the temple) – the mercy seat.

At Calvary the guilt of our sins was transferred or imputed to Christ. Our penalty was laid upon Him. He was condemned on our behalf in order that we could be free.

Do you participate in the Lord's Supper?

You are denying a pivotal doctrine of Scripture.

When Jesus instituted the Lord’s supper in Matthew 26:28, which represented His shed blood for the remission of our sins, He declared: “For this is my blood of the new testament [diathēkē], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

Jesus was here speaking here about His death! The Greek word here “testament” is diathēkē meaning covenant or testament. The shedding of His blood, which expressly secured “the remission of sins” for His elect, constituted “the new covenant.”

Mark 14:24 parallels: “he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.”

Luke 22:19-20 agrees: “And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup isthe new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.”

Some seem content to partake in what they deny.

1 Corinthians 11:24-26: “And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament [diathēkē or covenant] in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.”

Believers are asked to remember the Lord's death – which is “the new testament [diathēkē or covenant] in [His] blood” – until He returns. “The new covenant” is here identified with “the Lord's death.” There is no way around it.

This is an ongoing demand.

Colossians 1:20-21 says “And having made peace through the blood of his cross by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him… And you, that were sometimes alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.”

When a man or woman comes to Christ he is reconciled onto God, whereupon the power of sin is broke. Christ became our substitute at the cross even though He was sinless. He was condemned on our behalf for the purpose that we would be eternally free. He took our sin, our guilt, our past, our weaknesses, our sorrows upon Himself – in full. Calvary was a finished work.

Hebrews 13:20: “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.”

2 Corinthians 3:5-8 tells us that God: “our sufficiency is of God; Who hath made us (present tense) able ministers of the new testament [diathēkē or covenant]; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?”

This is an ongoing reality.

Hebrews 8:6-13 declares: “now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant [diathēkē or covenant], which was (present tense) established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord." For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth worn out, decayed, declared obsolete) and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Hello! “After” what “days”? After the “days” of “that first covenant” that he just mentioned. This is not rocket science. Can you not take Scripture in its context and let it speak for itself? Are you so besotted with the old covenant and so captivated with promoting futile animal sacrifices that you cannot see and embrace the beauty, fulfillment and finality of the new covenant?

This is an ongoing reality.

Christ came to save sinners and He completed that perfectly, in that He secured eternal redemption for his elect through His death (Hebrews 5:8-9). He now sits at the right hand of majesty interceding for His elect.

 

[WPM]

Then please show me the passafges that have gone into effect. Below please find the full new covenant as God inspired to be written:

Jeremiah 31:31-38​

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King James Version​

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31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

YOu agreed with me this is the only new Covenant in the bible, so show me which parts are in effect now.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Even Paul who wrote those words you cited from Corinthians also wrote this:

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Hebrews 9:14-17 confirms this: “the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament [diathēkē or covenant], that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”

This is an ongoing reality.

The whole idea of God-ordained covenant is all about the substitutionary blood sacrifice. Hebrews 13:20 describes the new covenant as “the blood of the everlasting covenant [diathēkē or covenant].”

God decreed that “the blood … maketh atonement for the soul” (Leviticus 17:11). Atonement is the only possible means of salvation for sinful man. In fact, Hebrews 9:22 declares, “without shedding of blood is no remission” for sin. It is all about "the blood of the covenant [diathēkē or covenant]" secured by our Lord and Savior (Hebrews 10:29).

Jesus confirmed the covenant through His redemptive sacrifice at the cross. In Hebrews 9:12 we learn “by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” We therefore see that Christ secured a full pardon for his elect putting away sin in the elect sinner (Hebrews 9:26) procuring their complete salvation.

Hebrews 12:22 & 24 sums it all up: “ye are come unto ... Jesus the mediator of the new covenant [diathēkē or covenant], and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Christ came to save sinners and He completed that perfectly, in that He secured eternal redemption for his elect through His death (Hebrews 5:8-9).

This is an ongoing reality.

Hebrews 10:28-29: “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant [diathēkē or testament], wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

This is an ongoing reality.

 

[rwb]

But you woefully ignore the second death does not occur until 1,000 years later. These are resurrected in the first resurrection.

You ignore context that makes this so plain.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If you keep this verse in place and do not ignore it, these who had the mark and were beheaded- were resurrected (stood up again from death).

Then verse 5 says the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years are done. So the resurrection of those trib saints is the 1st resurrection.

I'm not ignoring anything! The second death is to be cast into the lake of fire for THE DEAD, not the living. The DEAD are bodily resurrected for condemnation, while those alive through Christ are bodily resurrected for everlasting life. Both those who have done good and those who have done evil are resurrected the same hour. The order is the good are first bodily resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal, and then those who have done evil are resurrected to stand before God at the GWTJ.

You try to make "this is the first resurrection" the resurrection of the dead. But that cannot be, because vs 6 tells us those who are blessed and holy have part in the first resurrection, have overcome the second death, and shall live and reign with Christ a thousand years. Only the dead in Christ are blessed and holy. Not the rest of the DEAD who have not lived and reigned with Christ in time, nor shall they reign with Christ in time. Why? Because they are the DEAD! The same DEAD who shall be called to stand before the GWTJ after the thousand years expire, and will be cast into the lake of fire (second death).

The trib saints get resurrected, live and reign with Christ for the 1,000 years. Teh rest of the dead after those 1,000 years are resurrected to the judgment and eternal destiny of the lake of fire.

If this is true, you should be able to provide the verses from Scripture to prove what you allege. So far all you've given is opinion. It is incumbent upon you to prove your doctrine from the Bible or stop assuming that which cannot be shown is truth.