Paul or Athenasius - Who Speaks the Truth?

[Rich R]

Here is what Paul said about getting born again:

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

Here is what the Athanasian Creed says about getting born again (I only quoted pertinent excerpts) :

“We must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity....one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.”
​

Who is telling the truth here? Perhaps Athanasius got revelation that Paul didn't get?

​

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Here is what Paul said about getting born again:

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

Here is what the Athanasian Creed says about getting born again (I only quoted pertinent excerpts) :

“We must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity....one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.”
​

Who is telling the truth here? Perhaps Athanasius got revelation that Paul didn't get?

​

They both are speaking the truth. John 17. In fact, there are conditions that are not mentioned by Paul in that verse, but that he has written elsewhere like Romans 8:9

 

[Rich R]

They both are speaking the truth. John 17. In fact, there are conditions that are not mentioned by Paul in that verse, but that he has written elsewhere like Romans 8:9

What happened to all the people who lived during Paul's time? Not having lived long enough to hear Athenasius, are they not saved?

Rom 8:9,

You, however, are - controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
​

Where's the requirement to believe the trinity to get saved in this verse? I just read John 17 and don't see any requirement to believe the trinity there either.

Acts 2:38,

Peter replied - , “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your - sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
​

Nothing about believing a trinity here either.

Acts 16:31,

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
​

Still no trinity requirement. Seems like adding a belief in the trinity is adding something that isn't there.

Deut 4:2,

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
​

Rev 22:18,

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
​

Oh my...better not add something that's not there.

 

[Enoch111]

“We must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity....one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.”

This corresponds to the words "Lord Jesus". Jesus is God the Son, and second person of the trinity. So in fact Athanasius is simply affirming that one cannot be saved without believing that Jesus is God. The name Jesus (Yeshua or Yahshua) means "GOD is our salvation".

 

[marks]

Romans 10:6-9 KJV
6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It's not complicated to be reconciled to God, "all who call upon the Name of YHWH shall be saved."

Much love!

 

[Rich R]

This corresponds to the words "Lord Jesus". Jesus is God the Son, and second person of the trinity. So in fact Athanasius is simply affirming that one cannot be saved without believing that Jesus is God. The name Jesus (Yeshua or Yahshua) means "GOD is our salvation".

I see what you are saying, but if that were it, wouldn't it amount to adding something more than, "confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead," which is what the scriptures themselves say?

What about the people that lived before Athanasius, who just followed Paul's direction (really God's direction) to get born again? Are they not saved?

Since God never used the words "God the Son" how is it relevant? I might add that, while not found in the scriptures, it is found in ancient antiquity Pagan documents.

I can understand a Trinitarian disagreeing with a Unitarian, but I don't see a need for either to condemn the other to a life without Christ in them (Col 1:27). Jesus paid a high price to give us that wonderful gift while all we did was make him our Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. All born again people are not there because of their own workmanship. We are God's workmanship (Eph 2:10). Unless I find out different, I assume those who call themselves Christians have followed Romans 10:9-10 and are God's workmanship. Do you think I'm going to tell that person that they're not saved? No Way! I won't call dirty what God calls clean. We're supposed to love like Jesus did. That's a tall order, given he gave his life for a bunch of losers (all of us). Honestly, I probably fall short of that, but at least I won't tell a brother or sister they're not saved. Not that I'm a paragon of virtue or anything. We all grow at our own pace.

God bless.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What happened to all the people who lived during Paul's time? Not having lived long enough to hear Athenasius, are they not saved?

Rom 8:9,

You, however, are - controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
​

Where's the requirement to believe the trinity to get saved in this verse? I just read John 17 and don't see any requirement to believe the trinity there either.

Acts 2:38,

Peter replied - , “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your - sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
​

Nothing about believing a trinity here either.

Acts 16:31,

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
​

Still no trinity requirement. Seems like adding a belief in the trinity is adding something that isn't there.

Deut 4:2,

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
​

Rev 22:18,

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
​

Oh my...better not add something that's not there.

I see you are talking about the Trinity. So you are Oneness then? As for Romans 8:9 Look at it again.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Here is what Paul said about getting born again:

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

Here is what the Athanasian Creed says about getting born again (I only quoted pertinent excerpts) :

“We must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity....one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.”
​

Who is telling the truth here? Perhaps Athanasius got revelation that Paul didn't get?

​

Hand up Rich! Let me take a guess, is it Paul sir?

 

[Rich R]

I see you are talking about the Trinity. So you are Oneness then? As for Romans 8:9 Look at it again.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Very good verse. I did read it carefully, but I don't see a trinity there, let alone the requirement that one believe in the trinity to be saved. I think I read it as written. You seem to be inserting something that just isn't there. But maybe I'm missing something. Where do you see the trinity in Romans 8:9?

God bless

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Very good verse. I did read it carefully, but I don't see a trinity there, let alone the requirement that one believe in the trinity to be saved. I think I read it as written. You seem to be inserting something that just isn't there. But maybe I'm missing something. Where do you see the trinity in Romans 8:9?

God bless

Where?

Spirit - Holy Spirit
Spirit of God - Father
Spirit of Christ - Jesus

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Rich R]

Hand up Rich! Let me take a guess, is it Paul sir?

I think so. I mean it all comes down to going with something God said or something Athenasius said. It shouldn't be too hard of a decision.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think so. I mean it all comes down to going with something God said or something Athenasius said. It shouldn't be too hard of a decision.

It is not like we should believe our pastors IF you check the Bible and see if what they say is truth. They were both right. Athenasius was just being a pastor.

Do you not believe Athenasius for quoting scripture, and just Paul for writing scripture?

 

[Rich R]

Where?

Spirit - Holy Spirit
Spirit of God - Father
Spirit of Christ - Jesus

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Well I do see three spirits there. What I don't see is that they are actually one spirit.

Virtually all scholars say Matthew 28:19 was added to the original text. That makes sense since there is not one single record that shows the Apostles followed that formula. If you read Acts you will see they baptized in the name of Jesus only.

Besides that, the verse does not say the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are actually one person. Such an idea must be introduced into the scriptures from an outside source.

God bless. I'm sure God loves the heart you have for Him.

 

[Rich R]

It is not like we should believe our pastors IF you check the Bible and see if what they say is truth. They were both right.

I don't see how they were both right. If Paul said that we need to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, then it would not be necessary to believe the trinity as Athenasius said.

Do you not believe Athenasius for quoting scripture, and just Paul for writing scripture?

I'm sorry, but I see Athenasius adding to the scripture.

 

[tigger 2]

Athanasius

 

[MatthewG]

Here is what Paul said about getting born again:

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

Here is what the Athanasian Creed says about getting born again (I only quoted pertinent excerpts) :

“We must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity....one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.”
​

Who is telling the truth here? Perhaps Athanasius got revelation that Paul didn't get?

​

Rich R, hello there brother. It is also interesting how often Paul mentions thanks be to God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in so many of his letters.

However people will reject Paul due to personal biases I believe… it’s amazing to me to disregard Paul as not being an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the Will of God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well I do see three spirits there. What I don't see is that they are actually one spirit.

Virtually all scholars say Matthew 28:19 was added to the original text. That makes sense since there is not one single record that shows the Apostles followed that formula. If you read Acts you will see they baptized in the name of Jesus only.

Besides that, the verse does not say the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are actually one person. Such an idea must be introduced into the scriptures from an outside source.

God bless. I'm sure God loves the heart you have for Him.

They are one God.

Like I am one person who has a body with a physical brain (Jesus), an invisible mind in that brain (Father), and emotions in my heart that is my conscience (Holy Spirit). I am a triune being, just like God is.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I don't see how they were both right. If Paul said that we need to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, then it would not be necessary to believe the trinity as Athenasius said.


I'm sorry, but I see Athenasius adding to the scripture.

He just spells out the Trinity, that is shown in Scripture. So you must believe in one God, so who is it, the Father or Jesus? That will let me know if you believe like the Oneness group or the JWs.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I think so. I mean it all comes down to going with something God said or something Athenasius said. It shouldn't be too hard of a decision.

Amen to that Rich, I am ignorant on the teachings of Athenasius, but I will believe the Bible over anyone at any time as I am sure you agree, it is God's word, and God's word is truth, just as Jesus said. Jn 17:17

 

[Rich R]

It is not like we should believe our pastors IF you check the Bible and see if what they say is truth. They were both right. Athenasius was just being a pastor.

Do you not believe Athenasius for quoting scripture, and just Paul for writing scripture?

Well, Paul wrote the scripture alright. Athenasius then added to it something Paul did not say. Romans 10:9-10 is an incredibly simple, straight forward formula to get born again. There is no way around it. There's no more need to "interpret" it than if I were to say, "Bill went to the store." It just means exactly what it says. Most of the scriptures are actually just like that. It's when we add something from Pagan doctrine that things get complicated and require us to believe something that is quite impossible to believe. In order to believe something it has to make sense. We can tell ourselves we believe something that defies all logic and experience, but we're just fooling ourselves.

There are a few account of people getting born again in the book of Acts. None of them used Athenanius' formula.