Pre-Destination Or Free Will ???

[marks]

Sad that ppl believe in a God who can save those He has the power to save, but stands back and watches them die lost because they are too dumb to choose wisely.

It’s like you having the ability to drag a kid off a railroad track as a train is barreling towards them, but you plead with them to step off but they won’t right up until “splat!” You could have saved them, but left it up to them and they died. But you tried, right?

These make interesting analogies, don't they?

In your model, the man goes to the track, drags one child off the rails to safety, and then sits down and watches as the approaching train gets closer and closer until it crushes the other child.

You could have save them, but you'd rather they were crushed by the train. It's not even that you didn't try. You didn't want to try. You wanted them to be destroyed. You could have stepped in to save them, but you prefer it this way.

?

Much love!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

All this boils down to is at least God tried, right? Whew! God’s vindicated! He tried! Hallelujah! He tried but they didn’t hold to their end of the deal, right? Right?!?! Riiiiiiiiiiiight!

Frankly, that false gospel, taught by @marks and others on here is frankly asinine. It's false.

And I see he still just snips out what someone says and leaves the rest untouched.

He won't be corrected by the word.

It is these types who call us arrogant for knowing God elects persons only according to his purpose and will, which is biblical, yet see themselves as those who came to God in their own will and ability, so God merited them salvation because he saw they'd choose him out of their genuine love for him.

While lost and totally contrary to biblical revelation.

Yet their position is humility, even though they point to themselves for doing it in their ability. Utter nonsense.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If God doesn't want the wicked to die, then why would He so arrange things that this is of necessity what happens, and actually because God makes sure it happens. Doesn't that sound conflicted to you?

I don't want the wicked to die, so I will make absolutely certain that at least some of them have NO Way to avoid it.

Much love!

Look at it like this. You have a terminal illness(God forbid this happens) and I have a cure. You are 3,000 miles away, with no way of getting to me. I send word that if you will come to me I will give your the necessary treatment and you’re cured. You tell me you don’t have a car, the $ to buy a plane ticket, no one to drive you. I keep telling you unless you come to me, I will not give you the necessary treatment.

God has the cure, the remedy for His ppl. He gave it to His elect ppl in the cross of the Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If God doesn't want the wicked to die, then why would He so arrange things that this is of necessity what happens, and actually because God makes sure it happens. Doesn't that sound conflicted to you?

I don't want the wicked to die, so I will make absolutely certain that at least some of them have NO Way to avoid it.

Much love!

Then why doesn’t He go ahead and save everybody, seeing He has the power to save everyone?

 

[SovereignGrace]

These make interesting analogies, don't they?

In your model, the man goes to the track, drags one child off the rails to safety, and then sits down and watches as the approaching train gets closer and closer until it crushes the other child.

You could have save them, but you'd rather they were crushed by the train. It's not even that you didn't try. You didn't want to try. You wanted them to be destroyed. You could have stepped in to save them, but you prefer it this way.

?

Much love!

Not everyone is a child of God, salvifically that is.

 

[marks]

Then why doesn’t He go ahead and save everybody, seeing He has the power to save everyone?

Good question! Both of us could be asked that.

I have an answer. Do you?

My answer is that God wants all to be saved who want to be with Him. But He invites, not forces. So to my understanding, God saves the willing.

In your theology, why does God not save everyone He made?

Much love!
mark

 

[marks]

Look at it like this. You have a terminal illness(God forbid this happens) and I have a cure. You are 3,000 miles away, with no way of getting to me. I send word that if you will come to me I will give your the necessary treatment and you’re cured. You tell me you don’t have a car, the $ to buy a plane ticket, no one to drive you. I keep telling you unless you come to me, I will not give you the necessary treatment.

God has the cure, the remedy for His ppl. He gave it to His elect ppl in the cross of the Christ.

In your way of thinking, you can be standing next to me, you have the cure, but I can go to hell before you'll give it to me! If I'm not one of the chosen.

But in my thinking, you're not 3000 miles away. The cure is near me, virtually in my mouth . . . as you say, just drink . . .

Much love!
Mark

 

[SovereignGrace]

Good question! Both of us could be asked that.

I have an answer. Do you?

My answer is that God wants all to be saved who want to be with Him. But He invites, not forces. So to my understanding, God saves the willing.

In your theology, why does God not save everyone He made?

Much love!
mark

There’s a problem with all of this, no one wants Him. No one seeks for Him. That’s the thrust of Paul’s Romans 3:10ff.

Again, read up on helko, which means to literally drag off. He doesn’t force us, but effectually draws us to Himself.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In your way of thinking, you can be standing next to me, you have the cure, but I can go to hell before you'll give it to me! If I'm not one of the chosen.

But in my thinking, you're not 3000 miles away. The cure is near me, virtually in my mouth . . . as you say, just drink . . .

Much love!
Mark

Why do some drink and some don’t?

 

[marks]

Not everyone is a child of God, salvifically that is.

No . . . but let's look at this a moment.

You are passing by a house . . . the door stands upon . . . 3 small children lay unconcious on the floor just inside the front door. You can see a fire burning in the back of the house, and you perceive that in a matter of 10 or 15 minutes, the entire house will be in flames, the children killed.

You enter the house, pick up one of the children - easy to do for one so big and strong as you! You carry the child outside, and then sit in the lawn and watch as the flames slowly engulf the entire structure, and just continue to watch until the roof caves in, fire consuming all, the remaining children most certainly dead.

Does the world hail you as hero? I suppose the one you saved. But is there any one who can understand why - why? would you leave the other children to burn, when you could have saved them.

God commands us to treat animals better than that. If you see your neighbor's animal fall in a pit, pull it out. Does He not do the same?

Much love!
Mark

 

[SovereignGrace]

In your way of thinking, you can be standing next to me, you have the cure, but I can go to hell before you'll give it to me! If I'm not one of the chosen.

But in my thinking, you're not 3000 miles away. The cure is near me, virtually in my mouth . . . as you say, just drink . . .

Much love!
Mark

Again, not everyone has God intended to save. Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. No other nation did God entrust His word to.


I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.Romans 9:1-5] No other nation had a covenant with God, no other nation had the adoption of sons, no other nation was entrusted with the Law, no other nation had a sacrificial system that atoned for their sins.


I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.[Romans 11:1-6] Here we see how the NT Church is an extension of OT Israel. Israel was entrusted with God’s word, but it is has now been given to the NT Church to give God’s word to all we witness to.

 

[marks]

He doesn’t force us, but effectually draws us to Himself.

What is the difference here? It sounds like you make them the same thing.

 

[marks]

Again, not everyone has God intended to save.

And yet He says He wants everyone saved. He commands everyone to repent. Why?

 

[SovereignGrace]

No . . . but let's look at this a moment.

You are passing by a house . . . the door stands upon . . . 3 small children lay unconcious on the floor just inside the front door. You can see a fire burning in the back of the house, and you perceive that in a matter of 10 or 15 minutes, the entire house will be in flames, the children killed.

You enter the house, pick up one of the children - easy to do for one so big and strong as you! You carry the child outside, and then sit in the lawn and watch as the flames slowly engulf the entire structure, and just continue to watch until the roof caves in, fire consuming all, the remaining children most certainly dead.

Does the world hail you as hero? I suppose the one you saved. But is there any one who can understand why - why? would you leave the other children to burn, when you could have saved them.

God commands us to treat animals better than that. If you see your neighbor's animal fall in a pit, pull it out. Does He not do the same?

Much love!
Mark

God has the ability to save all mankind, but He doesn’t. Are you going to villify Him, too? God can save everybody but He doesn’t. So, you need a railing accusation against Him, too.

 

[marks]

Why do some drink and some don’t?

Some prefer their sin. That's what God teaches in John 3.

Much love!

 

[SovereignGrace]

What is the difference here? It sounds like you make them the same thing.

In divine quickening, faith and repentance are given and they exercise them and are saved. That’s what effectual calling means. That’s what helko(draw...literally drag off) means.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Some prefer their sin. That's what God teaches in John 3.

Much love!

And they are condemned already.[John 3:18]

 

[SovereignGrace]

And yet He says He wants everyone saved. He commands everyone to repent. Why?

You are extrapolating one verse from its context, making it more palatable for you to swallow. Read 1 Timothy 2:5-7]

 

[marks]

God has the ability to save all mankind, but He doesn’t. Are you going to villify Him, too? God can save everybody but He doesn’t. So, you need a railing accusation against Him, too.

That's not the point. I think that the doctrine of unconditional election vilifies God.

I think God wants everyone to be saved, to know Him, to have eternal life. But He offers, not forces that people can be with Him. I make no accusation against God.

I don't believe that He creates people, then commands them to repent of their sins and obey the Gospel - which is a commandment, not a suggestion - all the while knowing that they can't unless He recreates them, and though He commands repentance and obedience, the whole time He knows He has absolutely no intention of making them new so they can obey.

The God I know loves everyone He created, and wants them all, but only if they are willing. And so the fault that some are not saves is upon those who are not saved. They could have been, but they chose not to.

Much love!
Mark

 

[SovereignGrace]

And yet He says He wants everyone saved. He commands everyone to repent. Why?

God calls for everyone to repent because it’s the right thing to do. But just because He commands it, it doesn’t mean they have the ability to do it, either.

We are commanded to holy, even as He is holy. That’s commanded, not a suggestion. None can be that righteous, yet we’re command to be holy. I guess God is cruel for commanding us to be holy, right?