Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[Timtofly]

How do you think the angels are bound? How does one bind a spirit being?

These human messengers of Satan are bound in death, having died in unbelief, and they will remain bound until ALL the dead are bodily resurrected to life or damnation. In the same way certain unbelievers, human messengers of Satan are found among the body of Christ on earth, so too in days of old human messengers of Satan, sons/daughters of men, intermingled with the children (sons/daughters) of God, and so polluted mankind through their lasciviousness, denying God, and like their first parents desired to be a god unto themselves, they left the safety of God, just as A&E chose to leave the safety of paradise and were barred from the tree of life. They are being held in darkness, silence in unbelief until the Judgment Day.

Jude 4-6 (KJV) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels (human messengers) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:3-6 (KJV) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels (human messengers) that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The body + spirit = living souls! The spirit gives life to our physical bodies, and with life is called "living souls". When the body of a believer physically dies, he/she through the Spirit of Christ in them ascend to heaven still having life through our spirit. Therefore, in heaven the spirit alive is also called a "living soul". To be a living soul equals possessing life either through our natural spirit that every living breathing creature has, or supernaturally through the supernatural work of the Spirit in us.

That is not the symbolism in Revelation 12. John calls them a third of the stars. How do humans attack heaven?

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."

Who started out in heaven and ended up bound in chains of darkness? Certainly not humans. It was the stars not humans in those verses you quoted. They were cast down before the Flood. They were loosed from those chains of darkness in the first woe. The first woe is tied to the 5th Trumpet, when Satan is allowed to loose his fellow stars, angels which then attack heaven itself. That is when they are cast out of heaven by Michael and his stars, angels.

What do you have against 2 Corinthians 5:1 where the soul leaves this temporal corruptible body, for God's permanent incorruptible physical body?

 

[rwb]

That is not the symbolism in Revelation 12. John calls them a third of the stars. How do humans attack heaven?

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."

Who started out in heaven and ended up bound in chains of darkness? Certainly not humans. It was the stars not humans in those verses you quoted. They were cast down before the Flood. They were loosed from those chains of darkness in the first woe. The first woe is tied to the 5th Trumpet, when Satan is allowed to loose his fellow stars, angels which then attack heaven itself. That is when they are cast out of heaven by Michael and his stars, angels.

What do you have against 2 Corinthians 5:1 where the soul leaves this temporal corruptible body, for God's permanent incorruptible physical body?

Such an imaginative interpretation! I haven't a clue what you're talking about!

 

[Freedm]

There are so many contradictions and butchering of the sacred text in Preterism that it is hard to know where to start when refuting it. The most troubling aspect (of course) is their dangerous, obsessive and unbiblical fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70, instead of Christ's person and future glorious return at the end of the world. That is all they want to talk about. How sad! If you notice when you engage with them, most never want to talk about Jesus' glorious future return in majesty and glory to introduce everlasting perfection, righteousness and justice on the new earth. That is because many do not even believe in a future second coming. That is plainly heretical! They should not be allowed to espouse such error in Christian circles.

They wrongly take words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near” that relate to the future coming of Christ as relating to AD 70. But Jesus did not physically come then. Every eye did not see Him. The general resurrection/judgment did not occur. The corrupted heavens, earth and elements were obviously not burnt up then. The NHNE were not introduced then. This theory is nonsensical, erroneous and unscriptural. This totally exposes their error.

Most Bible-believing Christians rightly take such predictions from the Holy Spirit pertaining to Christ’s return like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near” as expressing time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. Amils equally take teaching and metaphoric phrases like the “thousand years” in Revelation 20 that expressly runs from from the first resurrection till a period of severe persecution before the literal physical return of Jesus, and the general resurrection/judgment as an actual literal lengthy time period, which we are now in. This corresponds with Matthew 25:14, 19-30 which describes the same intra-advent period and associated events. This is notably described by Jesus as “a long time.”

Both the righteous and the wicked receive their judgment at the all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord – “at my coming.” Not simply the wicked, but the righteous servants are brought before the bar of God to account for their talents.

While Preterists would have us believe that Jesus is contradicting Himself, we know that Matthew 25:14, 19-30 and Revelation 20 are looking at time form man’s perspective. After all, Moses instructs in Psalms 90:3-5: “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.”

2 Peter 3:8-9 reinforces this thought: “beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack (or slow) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (slowness).”

Our view of time is completely different from God's. There is a big difference between God’s heavenly eternal perspective and our earthly temporal perspective, something you do not seem to grasp. The phrases “a long time” and “a short time” are all subject to the one talking, their perspective and the subject matter under discussion. From man's perspective 2000 years is a long time. From God's perspective it is not. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

The objective and informed Bible student will see the contrast between the thousand years in Revelation 20 which represents a long time and Satan's little season which represents a short period of time near the end.

I know I'm late to the party so I apologize if I'm touching on things already discussed, but I want to contribute the following.

The key to understanding preterism is understanding heaven and earth. "Heaven and earth" refers not to the two entities, but rather to a connection between the two, which is the temple. The inner court was "heaven" and the outer, "earth". So in fact, "heaven and earth" have already passed away, and that happened in 70 AD. The temple was the connection between heaven and earth, but the new connection is Jesus Christ living in us. We no longer need a physical temple, because we are the temple. Jesus is the new "heaven and earth". He is our new connection to heaven, for us here on earth. (I'll include some supporting evidence for this concept in my next post)

This understanding clarifies a number of scriptures.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The above verse would not make any sense if heaven and earth had not yet disappeared, because then we would still have to live by the law.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

The above verse would be a contradiction to Matthew 5:18, if Matthew 5:18 referred to our physical earth. How can earth disappear if it remains forever? It can't. Therefore we know the two verses are not speaking of the same thing.

So, while in your opening statement you claim that "preterists would have us believe that Jesus is contradicting himself", it is actually without this new understanding that you are forcing scripture to contradict itself.

 

[Freedm]

To support the concept of "heaven and earth" referring to the temple, we can look at the writings of Josephus.

Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book. 3, chapter 6:4, (P. 87)
“However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world: for the third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a Heaven peculiar to God; but the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this is peculiar to the priests only…”

Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book. 3, chapter 7:7- (p. 90)
"The veils too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because the color is dyed by the blood of the sea shell fish; the blue is fit to signify the air…; And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four (elements)… the breastplate was made to resemble the earth, the girdle represented the ocean, the Sardonxes the sun and moon, the twelve stones the months…”

Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book. 3, chapter 6, 4 (87, p. 123)
The Temple was “an imitation of the systems of the world. The rest was sea and land” Thus, the Temple was “heaven and earth.”

There are also other sources that confirm the Jews considered the temple to be a representation of heaven and earth.

 

[MatthewG]

I know I'm late to the party so I apologize if I'm touching on things already discussed, but I want to contribute the following.

The key to understanding preterism is understanding heaven and earth. "Heaven and earth" refers not to the two entities, but rather to a connection between the two, which is the temple. The outer court was "heaven" and the inner, "earth". So in fact, "heaven and earth" have already passed away, and that happened in 70 AD. The temple was the connection between heaven and earth, but the new connection is Jesus Christ living in us. We no longer need a physical temple, because we are the temple. Jesus is the new "heaven and earth". He is our new connection to heaven, for us here on earth. (I'll include some supporting evidence for this concept in my next post)

This understanding clarifies a number of scriptures.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The above verse would not make any sense if heaven and earth had not yet disappeared, because then we would still have to live by the law.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

The above verse would be a contradiction to Matthew 5:18, if Matthew 5:18 referred to our physical earth. How can earth disappear if it remains forever? It can't. Therefore we know the two verses are not speaking of the same thing.

So, while in your opening statement you claim that "preterists would have us believe that Jesus is contradicting himself", it is actually without this new understanding that you are forcing scripture to contradict itself.

To support the concept of "heaven and earth" referring to the temple, we can look at the writings of Josephus.

Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book. 3, chapter 6:4, (P. 87)
“However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world: for the third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a Heaven peculiar to God; but the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this is peculiar to the priests only…”

Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book. 3, chapter 7:7- (p. 90)
"The veils too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because the color is dyed by the blood of the sea shell fish; the blue is fit to signify the air…; And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four (elements)… the breastplate was made to resemble the earth, the girdle represented the ocean, the Sardonxes the sun and moon, the twelve stones the months…”

Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book. 3, chapter 6, 4 (87, p. 123)
The Temple was “an imitation of the systems of the world. The rest was sea and land” Thus, the Temple was “heaven and earth.”

There are also other sources that confirm the Jews considered the temple to be a representation of heaven and earth.

Please be encouraged to consider this mans post.

Youre not gonna get any closer to understanding then with this right here.

See back in the day, Jewish people and the temple, they had was were God would visit, it was literally there heaven on earth “heaven and earth” shall pass away, their whole land became desolated and lost their whole world, ushering in the new administration of Christ - in which God is control now today. No more Satan, no more temple, and now today people walk around in the Garden of Eden individually decided to eat from the tree of knowlegde and good and evil or the tree of life.

There are other things to consider when it comes to history and one must thinj critically and check out even secular histories.

Good work freedom,

(My opinions and beliefs may not reflect this mans however he has brought forth some very good information from a man who was born in the inter-testimonial period - its a wonder why God let this work exist, even though Jospehus was a non believer)

All in Good faith,
Matthew

 

[Freedm]

For those interested in a slightly more complete reading of Josephus' understanding of the temple, and how it is likened to heaven and earth, I'll post this here.

Heaven & Earth Temple

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire. Now the vestment of the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest’s shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it? (ANT 3.7)

 

[WPM]

I know I'm late to the party so I apologize if I'm touching on things already discussed, but I want to contribute the following.

The key to understanding preterism is understanding heaven and earth. "Heaven and earth" refers not to the two entities, but rather to a connection between the two, which is the temple. The inner court was "heaven" and the outer, "earth". So in fact, "heaven and earth" have already passed away, and that happened in 70 AD. The temple was the connection between heaven and earth, but the new connection is Jesus Christ living in us. We no longer need a physical temple, because we are the temple. Jesus is the new "heaven and earth". He is our new connection to heaven, for us here on earth. (I'll include some supporting evidence for this concept in my next post)

This understanding clarifies a number of scriptures.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The above verse would not make any sense if heaven and earth had not yet disappeared, because then we would still have to live by the law.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

The above verse would be a contradiction to Matthew 5:18, if Matthew 5:18 referred to our physical earth. How can earth disappear if it remains forever? It can't. Therefore we know the two verses are not speaking of the same thing.

So, while in your opening statement you claim that "preterists would have us believe that Jesus is contradicting himself", it is actually without this new understanding that you are forcing scripture to contradict itself.

This earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints.

 

[WPM]

For those interested in a slightly more complete reading of Josephus' understanding of the temple, and how it is likened to heaven and earth, I'll post this here.

Heaven & Earth Temple

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire. Now the vestment of the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest’s shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it? (ANT 3.7)

He was an apostate Jew. Who is he to speak with spiritual authority?

 

[MatthewG]

He was an apostate Jew. Who is he to speak with spiritual authority?

Who is anyone to speak with spiritual authority?

That would be my question.

Pastor, or teacher, use of the bible itself doesnt work?

Is it God?

All in good faith,
Matthew

 

[MatthewG]

This earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints.

How is that possible when Jesus said explicitly thay his kingdom is not of this world?

You may believe and hold your opinion, just curious,

In good faith,
Matthew

 

[Freedm]

This earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints.

Does Christ not already reign in us, here on earth?

 

[Freedm]

He was an apostate Jew. Who is he to speak with spiritual authority?

He is speaking as one who was there, living in those days, among the Jews who worshipped at the temple, and therefore it's safe to assume that he understood the temple, and the people's relationship to it, a lot better than we do.

If you could go back in time, wouldn't your understanding benefit from being able to speak to the people of that day? Wouldn't you expect to learn things that we just don't understand today? Wouldn't every history buff jump at the chance to speak to people from the past, because they know they would gain so much more understanding? Why then would you dismiss the words of Josephus, who was literally there at that time?

 

[Freedm]

This earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints.

Acts 3:21 is a very interesting verse.
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

But the meaning of it depends on how you define the phrase "restore everything".

 

[WPM]

Does Christ not already reign in us, here on earth?

Of course.

 

[WPM]

Acts 3:21 is a very interesting verse.
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

But the meaning of it depends on how you define the phrase "restore everything".

It is not hard to work out. Corruption will not last forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premils argue.

Acts 3:19-21: “the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the the times of restitution [Gr. apokatastasis or reconstitution] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

“The times of refreshing” and “the restitution of all things” expressly coincides with the Lord’s appearing, thus proving the all-consummating nature of that glorious event.

The sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’).

Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “‘Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health.

 

[Freedm]

I believe the restitution refers to rebuilding the bridge that was broken between God and man, and between man and eternal life, in the garden of Eden. And has that bridge not already been rebuilt, in Jesus?

 

[Freedm]

Of course.

So if Christ already reigns in us, here on earth, then how can you still be waiting for Jesus to come and reign on earth?

 

[WPM]

I believe the restitution refers to rebuilding the bridge that was broken between God and man, and between man and eternal life, in the garden of Eden. And has that bridge not already been rebuilt, in Jesus?

Perfection is coming. Preterists do not seem to get that or appear to desire that. They fight that. They seem to want this world to continue under the perpetual spell of the curse. How sad! However, Scripture shows the bondage of corruption will be banished when Jesus comes again. That did not happen at the First Advent.

 

[WPM]

So if Christ already reigns in us, here on earth, then how can you still be waiting for Jesus to come and reign on earth?

Because the Bible says! Revelation 22:3-5 confirms, saying, “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.”