Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[rwb]

When Paul talked about a spiritual body, he was not talking about the corporate body of Christ. He was comparing one type of individual body (the natural body like we all have) with another type of individual body that he called a spiritual body.

Let me first say that I am not saying anything to you to be offensive. If it comes off that way it is not intentional so please accept my apologies.

I'm going to try to say this one more time another way. I believe that Paul is teaching that when those who are in Christ die, our natural, Spirit filled spirit is not dead. After physical death we are still Spiritually alive through His Spirit in our spirit, so as Spiritually filled spirits we are raised to heaven to wait for our physical bodily resurrection and change that will come when the last trump sounds. With our spirits, that return with Christ from heaven, our bodies will then be immortal and incorruptible with physical life from our eternal spirit we shall be fully human with body + spirit = living souls.

I believe Paul does speak of both individuals that die and spiritually ascend to heaven each in his/her own order, where we are corporately a spiritual body in heaven, just as we were a spiritual, natural corporate body while alive on earth. IOW we never cease to be the body of Christ while on earth or after death in heaven.

So, you acknowledge that it is the spirits of the dead in Christ that are in heaven now, right? And they don't have a body? That's what I believe as well. But, the idea that Paul was talking about a corporate spiritual body of Christ is just not there in the context of 1 Cor 15.

I've said all along that our spirit, through His Spirit in them goes to heaven when our body dies. We will not again have flesh & bones until the last trump sounds and the dead are resurrected in immortal & incorruptible bodies with a spirit to again be a complete living soul. As a spiritual body corporately we are together in heaven as a whole as each believer dies and spiritually ascends there. I think that's what Paul means when he said "each in his own order". We don't corporately die all together, but in heaven we are together "a spiritual body" of believers.

It was a spiritual body in the sense that it was immortal. Natural things are mortal. Spiritual things are eternal. You keep thinking in terms of physical and non-physical bodies, but that is not the contrast that Paul was making between the natural and spiritual body.

Immortality is for physical life, not spiritual life. The spirit in man with Christ's Spirit is eternal, not immortal. Being eternal the spirit through His Spirit in it never dies, so it does not need to be immortal, only our body of flesh and bones does, because it is under the curse of death and destined to die.

Yes, it does. Again, spiritual things are immortal and natural things are mortal. That is the contrast that Paul was making in terms of our bodies.

Natural man is mortal, spiritual beings are eternal, with God only being immortal.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. No, I'm not. You are the one who is always confused. How can it mean that? It's talking about Jesus appearing.

1 John 3:2 (KJV): Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:2 (Timtofly Nonsense Translation - TNT): Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet understand what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall understand, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Read the verse the way you are trying to say it should be read. See how nonsensical that is? It's talking about His second coming when He will appear to all and at that point we will be like Him in terms of having a glorious, immortal body like He has now.

I did not say that. I said you are doing that.

I said you are confusing the word appear with understand. So that is your translation, not mine.

You don't understand what we will be. I already pointed out we will be as Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration. We will shine as stars. That is what happens when we put the spirit on over the permanent incorruptible physical body. So no, we don't appear as stars now. That will only happen at the Second Coming. If you claim will we not shine like the sun, you don't understand how we will appear. Which was my point. Not changing Scripture as you did to show that you don't understand.

 

[Timtofly]

The spiritual body of Christ in heaven is non-material. It shall be as spirit beings in heaven, celestial/heavenly without a body, but not without life. It will be a spirit or living soul. The body Christ appeared in after His resurrection was not a spiritual body. His body was human with flesh & blood, and the spirit in His body gave life to His body. He was then with body + spirit a living soul. I do not believe your understanding of what a spiritual body means aligns with Scripture. Immortality does not make a spiritual body. Immortality makes a body of flesh & bones that shall never die. Spiritual life comes from our spirit through the Spirit of Christ in us. A spirit is not visible, that's why I don't believe our physical bodies will be resurrected spiritual bodies. They will be resurrected immortal & incorruptible alive forever through our eternal, invisible spirit in them.

That would be your limited sinful flesh view, that a body and air equals a soul. That is not what Paul taught. You cannot form your opinion of Paul's teaching on a faulty understanding of Genesis 1 and 2.

You are a soul. You are not a body nor a spirit. God's breath on the 6th day was more than just God's "created air". Just because the Hebrew word has meaning, that is not what is later defined as a person's spirit. We are not air. We breath air in and out to stay alive. Our spirit is not the air we breath. If that were the case then everyone's spirit is out there creating all the air in the world.

You claim a body and a spirit (air) come together and form a soul. The simplest interpretation is that it was God that made us a soul. Then you assume it took a body and air. Paul does not say 1+1=3. Paul says we are a soul 1 + we have a body to put on 1 + we have a spirit to also put on 1 = 3. Our spirit cannot be air, because we cannot put on air, as air is what we breathe in and out.

Now the Holy Spirit works from the inside. Demons work from the inside. But Paul never any where says receive your spirit from God and place it inside you. Paul points out it is mortal putting on immortality. John in the 5th Seal calls it putting on a robe of white. Neither called the spirit by the term used in the Greek so as not to confuse "air" which is the Greek meaning of spirit. The same word is used for spirit and air "pneuma". We can see right there our spirit is not "pneuma" "air". But no one wants to acknowledge that immortality means more than just longevity. You don't put on longevity. Paul is literally saying death puts on non death. But what is Paul attempting to convey if we put on more than longevity and "non death"? We put on the spirit, because Adam lost the spirit when he disobeyed God, and no human has had a spirit on earth since then. Yes we have a spirit, but the spirit resides with God in the presence of God. We can see that in 1 Kings 22:19-25.

Most interpret the word immortal or immortality as an adjective. But Paul uses the word as a noun. As an adjective it means longevity. As a noun it means divine or carnal gods. When Adam disobeyed, he lost his standing with God as a son of God. That would be his spirit. It was taken from him, and he could no longer communicate nor speak with God face to face. That is why he hid. He knew he lost that spirit. He was also naked after loosing the spirit. That is what Paul said that we put on the spirit. It was put on over the physical body.

And Adam physically died as well. His soul left the permanent incorruptible physical body that Paul defines in 2 Corinthians 5:1. That is when he was placed into death as a mortal. He now had a temporal corruptible physical body, that in dying would keep dying until physically dead, and returns to dust, dissolves back into the earth. Just as Paul declares in 2 Corinthians 5:1

So there are two different bodies. The one we are born with from Adam. And the one God gave Adam and all the sons of God on the 6th day. So Paul declares the soul puts on incorruption and immortality. The soul puts on God's permanent incorruptible physical body, when it leaves Adam's dead flesh. But putting on the spirit happens to the entire church at the Second Coming, the 5th and 6th Seal. We don't put on longevity. No such thing as immortal body in Scripture. We put on a physical body and the spirit. And Jesus showed us what the spirit is on the mount of Transfiguration. He started to shine like the sun. That was an outer phenomenon, not an inner phenomenon.

And when Paul says to live as to keep the soul and spirit blameless, he is saying that some being so wicked can literally turn their spirit into a demonic spirit. Demons are the spirits of past dead humans, not a third created entity besides humans and angels. They are spirits that can invade a person's mind and soul, and literally take over thus creating more demons.

But accepted theology does not teach this, because Satan does not want us to have all the facts, but keep us in the dark with half truths. It does not even take that much to figure it out, even though you all keep preaching we need to be spiritually discerned. You have all seemed to accept human theology as the only discernment we need.

You seem to accept Paul's symbolism of a plant that no one gets a body until the end, obviously a plant needs time to grow from a seed in the ground, but then fail to see Paul is addressing those alive on the earth at the Second Coming. Not those already in Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. No soul or body is in the ground when the soul leaves this body of corruption. That is not the point. The point is only, there are two different body types but both are physical. One is of earth, natural from Adam. The other is of heaven, spiritual from God. But not an "air body", an incorruptible and permanent physical body. Adam did not have an "air body" before he disobeyed God.

In fact those sons of God were considered giants and men of renown, that lived from the 6th day creation. Adam's dead flesh seemed to even be diminished in size and what it could do after Adam lost his original physical body. Life would be way harder than it was originally.

BTW, God declared Adam would die. That was not some philosophical notion that death was inevitable, and eventually realized. The philosophical notion that many declare is the philosophy Satan used on Eve, saying they would not certainly die. Why chase Satan's deception as the real thing? They did indeed die. The reversal is necessary to go from one type of body, back to the original body Adam had. If you accept Paul literally defined two different bodies, then Adam had two bodies, one before disobedience, and one after disobedience. Call that a change, but there were two distinct body types. The soul changes bodies. Not that one type morphs into the other type. Paul said the body is put on. Like clothing, you don't have just one set that can change its physical properties. You have several sets of clothing you change in and out of. Paul explains there are two bodies, not one that changes it's properties.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me first say that I am not saying anything to you to be offensive. If it comes off that way it is not intentional so please accept my apologies.

When you say things like "I can only go by what is written" it comes across as if you go by what is written and I don't. You can understand how that can come across, right? Regardless, I accept your apology. No issues.

I'm going to try to say this one more time another way. I believe that Paul is teaching that when those who are in Christ die, our natural, Spirit filled spirit is not dead. After physical death we are still Spiritually alive through His Spirit in our spirit, so as Spiritually filled spirits we are raised to heaven to wait for our physical bodily resurrection and change that will come when the last trump sounds. With our spirits, that return with Christ from heaven, our bodies will then be immortal and incorruptible with physical life from our eternal spirit we shall be fully human with body + spirit = living souls.

I believe Paul does speak of both individuals that die and spiritually ascend to heaven each in his/her own order, where we are corporately a spiritual body in heaven, just as we were a spiritual, natural corporate body while alive on earth. IOW we never cease to be the body of Christ while on earth or after death in heaven.

The order Paul gave was of bodily resurrections just like Christ's. That is the context. And he said next in order after Christ's bodily resurrection is the resurrection of those who are His at His coming (1 Cor 15:22-23). You do believe that all of the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected at His second coming, right (1 Thess 4:14-17)? Well, that is what 1 Cor 15:22-23 is referring to and Paul later indicates it will occur at the last trumpet. Which means He was saying that Christ will return at the last trumpet at which point the dead will be bodily resurrected.

I've said all along that our spirit, through His Spirit in them goes to heaven when our body dies. We will not again have flesh & bones until the last trump sounds and the dead are resurrected in immortal & incorruptible bodies with a spirit to again be a complete living soul. As a spiritual body corporately we are together in heaven as a whole as each believer dies and spiritually ascends there. I think that's what Paul means when he said "each in his own order". We don't corporately die all together, but in heaven we are together "a spiritual body" of believers.

Yes, we don't stop being part of the body of believers when we die, but being a spiritual body of believers in heaven is not what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 15. He referred to what is true about each human's body (each person who is one of the dead in Christ). Each person has a mortal body that is natural and is sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness. And each person will be changed at the last trumpet when Christ returns to have a spiritual body that will have been raised in incorruption, glory and power.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did not say that. I said you are doing that.

Yes, and I showed you how ridiculous it is to see it how you do.

I said you are confusing the word appear with understand. So that is your translation, not mine.

So, when it says Christ will appear it means He will understand? It says we will see Him as He is. You think that means we will understand Him as He is?

You don't understand what we will be.

No one does. Are you just saying it is not yet made known what we will be? I agree with that. But, it talks about Jesus appearing and us seeing Him as He is and being like Him as well. What is your understanding of that part?

I already pointed out we will be as Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration. We will shine as stars.

When did you point that out? I must have missed that. Though I don't read everything you say. I can only take so much.

That is what happens when we put the spirit on over the permanent incorruptible physical body. So no, we don't appear as stars now. That will only happen at the Second Coming. If you claim will we not shine like the sun, you don't understand how we will appear.

I never said that. Jesus said that in Matthew 13:43, so why would I think otherwise?

Which was my point. Not changing Scripture as you did to show that you don't understand.

I changed nothing. It's not my fault that you have terrible reading comprehension skills. I never said that the verse doesn't say that we don't currently know or understand what we will be like when Jesus appears and we see Him as He is. I'm sure He will appear in glory and it will be awe inspiring. But, we don't know exactly what they will be like yet. Not until it actually happens. That is John's point. But, he also says we will be like Him at that point, so to me that means we too will have glorious bodies. And that is what Paul indicates in 1 Cor 15:42-44 as well.

 

[rwb]

The order Paul gave was of bodily resurrections just like Christ's. That is the context. And he said next in order after Christ's bodily resurrection is the resurrection of those who are His at His coming (1 Cor 15:22-23). You do believe that all of the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected at His second coming, right (1 Thess 4:14-17)? Well, that is what 1 Cor 15:22-23 is referring to and Paul later indicates it will occur at the last trumpet. Which means He was saying that Christ will return at the last trumpet at which point the dead will be bodily resurrected.

You're not taking into account what Paul said before this. Paul writes that since Christ has risen from the dead those who had already fallen asleep in Him have not perished. But are in fact of His resurrection (the first resurrection) through Him. He writes that Christ is the firstfruits of them that had already died since He physically resurrected from the dead. Since Christ defeated death through His bodily resurrection, the dead in Christ before His coming could now ascend to heaven spirit/souls being filled with life from His Spirit, spiritual body of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:18-20 (KJV) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Old Covenant faithful saints "those who are His at His coming" must also become partakers of the first resurrection spiritually to overcome the second death. But they could not until Christ literally came and defeated sin and death through His atonement. If they have not become the firstfruits of Christ to ascend to heaven, then since they had died, they have perished. But they have not perished because they became the firstfruits of Christ, whose spirit soul or spiritual body as Paul writes, ascended to heaven.

Then Paul goes on to say that in Christ ALL, not only the firstfruits of Christ, but all in Him shall be made alive, that whosoever dies in Christ in the order in which they die, shall also be alive together with the firstfruits of Christ as a spiritual body in heaven. Then afterward THEY or ALL that are Christ's shall be made physically alive at His second coming. Which shall come at the end of the age when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom of God that is in heaven. IOW when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, then shall come the end, but meanwhile Christ must put down all rule and authority and power, which He did when He defeated Satan and death by His cross and resurrection. But the last enemy, death, shall not be altogether abolished until Christ comes again. Until then Christ is reigning from heaven during this time symbolized a thousand years, and His saints are with Him, as living (spirit/souls), because in life (during the thousand years of symbolic time) they lived and reigned with Him or earth, having partaken of the first resurrection when they were born again of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24-25 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Yes, we don't stop being part of the body of believers when we die, but being a spiritual body of believers in heaven is not what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 15. He referred to what is true about each human's body (each person who is one of the dead in Christ). Each person has a mortal body that is natural and is sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness. And each person will be changed at the last trumpet when Christ returns to have a spiritual body that will have been raised in incorruption, glory and power.

Yes, that is what Paul was speaking of. He goes through great detail proving that death no longer has power over those who physically die in Christ. When our body becomes a corpse, faithful saints ascend to heaven filled with the Holy Spirit ALIVE a spiritual body of believers in heaven to wait for the Kingdom of God to be complete, and for the last trump to sound when our physical bodies will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible and once again be physically alive through our eternal spirits that return with Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're not taking into account what Paul said before this. Paul writes that since Christ has risen from the dead those who had already fallen asleep in Him have not perished. But are in fact of His resurrection (the first resurrection) through Him. He writes that Christ is the firstfruits of them that had already died since He physically resurrected from the dead. Since Christ defeated death through His bodily resurrection, the dead in Christ before His coming could now ascend to heaven spirit/souls being filled with life from His Spirit, spiritual body of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:18-20 (KJV) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Old Covenant faithful saints "those who are His at His coming" must also become partakers of the first resurrection spiritually to overcome the second death. But they could not until Christ literally came and defeated sin and death through His atonement. If they have not become the firstfruits of Christ to ascend to heaven, then since they had died, they have perished. But they have not perished because they became the firstfruits of Christ, whose spirit soul or spiritual body as Paul writes, ascended to heaven.

Then Paul goes on to say that in Christ ALL, not only the firstfruits of Christ, but all in Him shall be made alive, that whosoever dies in Christ in the order in which they die, shall also be alive together with the firstfruits of Christ as a spiritual body in heaven. Then afterward THEY or ALL that are Christ's shall be made physically alive at His second coming. Which shall come at the end of the age when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom of God that is in heaven. IOW when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, then shall come the end, but meanwhile Christ must put down all rule and authority and power, which He did when He defeated Satan and death by His cross and resurrection.

No, He will do that when He returns. That is talking about Him literally putting down all rule and authority and power forever, which He will do when He returns and destroys all of His enemies.

But the last enemy, death, shall not be altogether abolished until Christ comes again. Until then Christ is reigning from heaven during this time symbolized a thousand years, and His saints are with Him, as living (spirit/souls), because in life (during the thousand years of symbolic time) they lived and reigned with Him or earth, having partaken of the first resurrection when they were born again of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24-25 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

To me, verses 22-23 clearly refer to His second coming and indicate that those who belong to Him will be bodily resurrected at that time. And then He will deliver the kingdom to God the Father after that. Nothing you're saying is changing my mind on that.

Yes, that is what Paul was speaking of. He goes through great detail proving that death no longer has power over those who physically die in Christ. When our body becomes a corpse, faithful saints ascend to heaven filled with the Holy Spirit ALIVE a spiritual body of believers in heaven to wait for the Kingdom of God to be complete, and for the last trump to sound when our physical bodies will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible and once again be physically alive through our eternal spirits that return with Christ.

If the spiritual body Paul was referring to is the "spiritual body of believers in heaven" then what is your understanding of the natural body that he referred to? Do you see the natural body as being a corporate body as well? If not, then you are not being consistent in how you see the contrast between the natural body and the spiritual body.

 

[rwb]

No, He will do that when He returns. That is talking about Him literally putting down all rule and authority and power forever, which He will do when He returns and destroys all of His enemies.

The only enemy not destroyed through the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, is physical death. Scripture shows us that Satan, sin and death have been, not shall be, defeated by Christ's sinless human life, His sacrificial atoning death, and His glorious resurrection. When He comes again the final enemy which is physical death shall also be destroyed.

Satan had the power to hold people in bondage to fear of death before Christ came. Through the sacrifice of Himself, reconciliation came for the sins of the people, that is those who believe in Him.

Hebrews 2:14-18 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

If the spiritual body Paul was referring to is the "spiritual body of believers in heaven" then what is your understanding of the natural body that he referred to? Do you see the natural body as being a corporate body as well? If not, then you are not being consistent in how you see the contrast between the natural body and the spiritual body.

The natural or physical body of believers, those who have spiritual life through Him. We, being natural in the flesh, indwelt by His Holy Spirit shall all physically die. We are corporately called the Church, and body of Christ while physically alive on earth, and we shall still be corporately the Church and body of Christ in heaven, a spirit filled body, each member making up part of the whole body of Christ. The natural body becomes a corpse, and we, who are in Christ, are raised to heaven a spiritual body to join the throne in heaven as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being built as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.

Colossians 1:13-17 (KJV) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The only enemy not destroyed through the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, is physical death. Scripture shows us that Satan, sin and death have been, not shall be, defeated by Christ's sinless human life, His sacrificial atoning death, and His glorious resurrection. When He comes again the final enemy which is physical death shall also be destroyed.

I believe Paul was talking in the literal sense. He did not give any indication in 1 Cor 15:24 that all dominion, authority and power had already been destroyed. He indicated that was something that would occur in the future. Clearly, not all of His enemies besides death have been destroyed yet in the literal sense. When He comes He will literally, physically destroy all of His enemies and their dominion, authority and power will be destroyed in the process. That is what I believe Paul is talking about.

Satan had the power to hold people in bondage to fear of death before Christ came. Through the sacrifice of Himself, reconciliation came for the sins of the people, that is those who believe in Him.

Hebrews 2:14-18 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

You don't need to tell me things like this as if I didn't know this already. You should know I already know things like this. I tell Premils the same thing often in order to show how to properly understand Satan's binding.

The natural or physical body of believers, those who have spiritual life through Him. We, being natural in the flesh, indwelt by His Holy Spirit shall all physically die. We are corporately called the Church, and body of Christ while physically alive on earth, and we shall still be corporately the Church and body of Christ in heaven, a spirit filled body, each member making up part of the whole body of Christ. The natural body becomes a corpse, and we, who are in Christ, are raised to heaven a spiritual body to join the throne in heaven as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being built as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.

You're not being clear. Do you see the natural body as referring to the individual body of a person or to the corporate body of believers? Same question regarding the spiritual body. You seem to want it to be both, but that can't be the case. You talk about an individual dying and then being "raised to heaven a spiritual body", but then you also try to say it's talking about the corporate spiritual body of believers. No. It's either talking about one or the other (individual or corporate). So, which is it?

 

[rwb]

You don't need to tell me things like this as if I didn't know this already. You should know I already know things like this. I tell Premils the same thing often in order to show how to properly understand Satan's binding.

But you seem not to believe that physical death does not equate to death of our spirit. Premills don't believe Satan has been bound, nor do they believe we ascend to heaven spiritually alive when our body becomes a corpse when we die in Christ.

You're not being clear. Do you see the natural body as referring to the individual body of a person or to the corporate body of believers? Same question regarding the spiritual body. You seem to want it to be both, but that can't be the case. You talk about an individual dying and then being "raised to heaven a spiritual body", but then you also try to say it's talking about the corporate spiritual body of believers. No. It's either talking about one or the other (individual or corporate). So, which is it?

1 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Ephesians 5:29-30 (KJV) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

I'm being perfectly clear! We belong to the Church and body of Christ both individually and corporately! It matters not whether we are physically alive or we have physically died. In Christ we never cease to belong to the Church and body of Christ individually and corporately!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you seem not to believe that physical death does not equate to death of our spirit.

Of course physical death does not equate to the death of our spirit. It only equates to the death of our body. Do you think our spirit dies when we physically/bodily die?

Premills don't believe Satan has been bound, nor do they believe we ascend to heaven spiritually alive when our body becomes a corpse when we die in Christ.

The first statement is obvious, but I don't know about the second one. There are some Premills who believe in soul sleep, but I think most of them believe that our souls and spirits ascend to heaven when we die and are conscious there.

1 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Ephesians 5:29-30 (KJV) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

I'm being perfectly clear!

LOL. We all like to think that we're being perfectly clear, don't we? You are being perfectly clear in your own mind, but not to me. Don't take offense by my saying that. It's just how it is sometimes. We obviously don't think the same on this particular topic, so the result of that is a lack of clarity at times.

We belong to the Church and body of Christ both individually and corporately! It matters not whether we are physically alive or we have physically died. In Christ we never cease to belong to the Church and body of Christ individually and corporately!

Paul was not talking both about an individual natural body and a corporate natural body when he said "it is sown a natural body". And he was not talking about both an individual spiritual body and a corporate spiritual body when he said "it is raised a spiritual body". He was referring to the human body when he said that. The human body is sown a natural body. It is sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness. Conversely, it is raised a spiritual body, raised in incorruption, raised in glory and raised in power. The concept of a corporate body is simply not there in 1 Corinthians 15 when Paul talks about the body.

 

[rwb]

Paul was not talking both about an individual natural body and a corporate natural body when he said "it is sown a natural body". And he was not talking about both an individual spiritual body and a corporate spiritual body when he said "it is raised a spiritual body". He was referring to the human body when he said that. The human body is sown a natural body. It is sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness. Conversely, it is raised a spiritual body, raised in incorruption, raised in glory and raised in power. The concept of a corporate body is simply not there in 1 Corinthians 15 when Paul talks about the body.

Another assumption on your part!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Another assumption on your part!

And you are not making assumptions? I gave my interpretation just as you are giving your interpretation. Don't act as if you're doing anything different than I'm doing.

And with that said, I am done with this particular discussion. We need to just agree to disagree at this point. I don't think there's anything left to be said about this that we haven't already said.

 

[rwb]

And you are not making assumptions? I gave my interpretation just as you are giving your interpretation. Don't act as if you're doing anything different than I'm doing.

And with that said, I am done with this particular discussion. We need to just agree to disagree at this point. I don't think there's anything left to be said about this that we haven't already said.

In that we can agree! I too am happy to be finished with this discussion with you. Your arguments in this discussion are repeatedly based on 1Cor 15, and you making the same assumptions again and again. You brought not supporting verses to prove the assumptions you made, and I did. It's fine to assume something from the Bible, but if you cannot prove using more verses and passages from Scripture, then it is simply assumption. I will not be persuaded by ones assumptions without proof text to support that opinion.

I hope we can have more discussions and don't allow our disagreements here to cause division.

 

[Timtofly]

But, he also says we will be like Him at that point,

Yes, we will shine as the stars. That is how Jesus appeared on the mount of Transfiguration.

We don't currently shine as the stars. "It doth not yet appear what we shall be."

We should know from Scripture what we will be in appearance.

 

[Timtofly]

But you seem not to believe that physical death does not equate to death of our spirit. Premills don't believe Satan has been bound, nor do they believe we ascend to heaven spiritually alive when our body becomes a corpse when we die in Christ.

Because we already have a permanent incorruptible physical body waiting in Paradise. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

Because Satan has not even been cast out of heaven with his angels, because they are bound and he is not. Satan is accusing the brethren night and day before God.

Revelation 12:10

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

At what point in time has this day and night accusation been going on?

Satan has to free his angels from the pit, to even stop accusing the brethren day and night.

 

[rwb]

Because we already have a permanent incorruptible physical body waiting in Paradise. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

Our physical body is destined to life on the new earth. As flesh & blood we will not inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven. When our body dies we will ascend to heaven a celestial/heavenly being like the angels. Our physical bodies will not change from mortal to immortal and corruptible until the last trump sounds. The body we shall have in heaven when our body dies shall be eternal spirit, because that is what Christ said for whoever believes in Him, HAVE eternal spiritual life.

2 Corinthians 5:1 (KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Our eternal spirit with Christ in heaven after our body becomes a corpse will return with Christ. Then our bodies will be resurrected immortal & incorruptible and made alive through our eternal spirit, and we shall once again be fully human with body + spirit = living souls.

Because Satan has not even been cast out of heaven with his angels, because they are bound and he is not. Satan is accusing the brethren night and day before God.

Revelation 12:10

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

At what point in time has this day and night accusation been going on?

Satan has to free his angels from the pit, to even stop accusing the brethren day and night.

Satan was cast out of heaven after the birth of Christ, "the man child". When using the full context of Rev 12, it's easy to understand that prior to the birth of Christ through the Old Covenant nation, the dragon, having mighty power was already tormenting the faithful of Old, and accusing them before God, just as he did with faithful Job. Satan had knowledge through the Scriptures that the Messiah/Savior would be born through the nation. And he tried to kill Christ at birth. He could not destroy Christ at birth, but through him all the males born in the nation two years old and under were killed. The faithful of Old, the Church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38), then became dispersed into all the world. After Christ was born there was a battle in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels, and the great dragon with his angels was then cast out of heaven to the earth, being bound to the earth from that moment on. No longer would Satan and his demonic hosts be able to access heaven, being bound on the earth until the final judgment when they shall all be cast into the lake of fire. Satan, having lost access to the throne of God could no longer accuse the faithful saints before God in heaven, because NOW, with the birth of Christ salvation has come unto all the earth. Read the full context!

Revelation 12:1-10 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In that we can agree! I too am happy to be finished with this discussion with you. Your arguments in this discussion are repeatedly based on 1Cor 15

Well, that is what we were discussing...

, and you making the same assumptions again and again.

And you are making no assumptions? Hmmm.

You brought not supporting verses to prove the assumptions you made, and I did.

The problem is that those verses did not actually prove your assumptions. So, I don't see this as being an issue. The fact of the matter is that the body is not really talked about in those kinds of terms like we see in 1 Cor 15 anywhere else in scripture. So, we don't have a lot to go on besides 1 Corinthians 15 when it comes to the natural body and the spiritual body.

It's fine to assume something from the Bible, but if you cannot prove using more verses and passages from Scripture, then it is simply assumption.

Call it what you want. To me, Paul was clear enough in 1 Corinthians 15, so I don't feel any need to prove what he said with other scripture in this case. My view does not contradict any other scripture.

. I will not be persuaded by ones assumptions without proof text to support that opinion.

Fine.

I hope we can have more discussions and don't allow our disagreements here to cause division.

Of course we can.

 

[Timtofly]

Our physical body is destined to life on the new earth. As flesh & blood we will not inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven. When our body dies we will ascend to heaven a celestial/heavenly being like the angels. Our physical bodies will not change from mortal to immortal and corruptible until the last trump sounds. The body we shall have in heaven when our body dies shall be eternal spirit, because that is what Christ said for whoever believes in Him, HAVE eternal spiritual life.

2 Corinthians 5:1 (KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Our eternal spirit with Christ in heaven after our body becomes a corpse will return with Christ. Then our bodies will be resurrected immortal & incorruptible and made alive through our eternal spirit, and we shall once again be fully human with body + spirit = living souls.


Satan was cast out of heaven after the birth of Christ, "the man child". When using the full context of Rev 12, it's easy to understand that prior to the birth of Christ through the Old Covenant nation, the dragon, having mighty power was already tormenting the faithful of Old, and accusing them before God, just as he did with faithful Job. Satan had knowledge through the Scriptures that the Messiah/Savior would be born through the nation. And he tried to kill Christ at birth. He could not destroy Christ at birth, but through him all the males born in the nation two years old and under were killed. The faithful of Old, the Church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38), then became dispersed into all the world. After Christ was born there was a battle in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels, and the great dragon with his angels was then cast out of heaven to the earth, being bound to the earth from that moment on. No longer would Satan and his demonic hosts be able to access heaven, being bound on the earth until the final judgment when they shall all be cast into the lake of fire. Satan, having lost access to the throne of God could no longer accuse the faithful saints before God in heaven, because NOW, with the birth of Christ salvation has come unto all the earth. Read the full context!

Revelation 12:1-10 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

You don't explain when the angels were loosed. You cannot have them kicked out of heaven at the birth of Jesus. You contradict Jude 1:6. They were still bound when Jude was written.

The soul is spiritually dead, having no connection to our spirit. The soul is physically dead separated from that permanent incorruptible physical body in heaven.

Instead the soul is given the Holy Spirit as a substitute for our spirit. Instead of God's permanent incorruptible physical body, we have Adam's dead temporal corruptible flesh.

 

[rwb]

You don't explain when the angels were loosed. You cannot have them kicked out of heaven at the birth of Jesus. You contradict Jude 1:6. They were still bound when Jude was written.

The soul is spiritually dead, having no connection to our spirit. The soul is physically dead separated from that permanent incorruptible physical body in heaven.

Instead the soul is given the Holy Spirit as a substitute for our spirit. Instead of God's permanent incorruptible physical body, we have Adam's dead temporal corruptible flesh.

How do you think the angels are bound? How does one bind a spirit being?

These human messengers of Satan are bound in death, having died in unbelief, and they will remain bound until ALL the dead are bodily resurrected to life or damnation. In the same way certain unbelievers, human messengers of Satan are found among the body of Christ on earth, so too in days of old human messengers of Satan, sons/daughters of men, intermingled with the children (sons/daughters) of God, and so polluted mankind through their lasciviousness, denying God, and like their first parents desired to be a god unto themselves, they left the safety of God, just as A&E chose to leave the safety of paradise and were barred from the tree of life. They are being held in darkness, silence in unbelief until the Judgment Day.

Jude 4-6 (KJV) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels (human messengers) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:3-6 (KJV) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels (human messengers) that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The body + spirit = living souls! The spirit gives life to our physical bodies, and with life is called "living souls". When the body of a believer physically dies, he/she through the Spirit of Christ in them ascend to heaven still having life through our spirit. Therefore, in heaven the spirit alive is also called a "living soul". To be a living soul equals possessing life either through our natural spirit that every living breathing creature has, or supernaturally through the supernatural work of the Spirit in us.