Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amen! And The Powerful Christ also Revealed to Paul:

1Co_6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?..."​

​

Amen.

Yes, I did have that verse in mind as well, but didn't end up posting it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Precious friend, because:

Christ's 'Resurrected Body' on earth:

Luk_24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me,​

and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."​

And, The 'Same Body' that Ascended Into Heaven:

Eph_5:30 "For we are members of His Body, of His Flesh, And of His Bones."​

And, all 'members Of His Body' will be:

"For whom He Did Foreknow, He also Did Predestinate​

To Be Conformed To The Image of His SON (Romans 8:29),​

Correct?

Amen.

There's one other thing to point out about this. In 1 John 3:2 it indicates that we will see Him as He is when He appears. This suggests that when He appeared after His resurrection, He did not appear in all His glory as He will when He returns. They would not have been able to handle that. It seems that when He appears, He will appear like He did in His transfiguration. So, I'm thinking our bodies will be like that when we are changed and not like the seemingly normal body that He appeared to them in after His resurrection.

Anyway, coming back to what was being discussed, it seems to me that a spiritual body, in contrast to the natural body, is not a completely non-physical body, but rather one that can take on different forms including a physical form. Like Jesus did. Yet, He could go right through locked doors or walls as well.

 

[MatthewG]

There's one other thing to point out about this. In 1 John 3:2 it indicates that we will see Him as He is when He appears. This suggests that when He appeared after His resurrection, He did not appear in all His glory as He will when He returns. They would not have been able to handle that. It seems that when He appears, He will appear like He did in His transfiguration. So, I'm thinking our bodies will be like that when we are changed and not like the seemingly normal body that He appeared to them in after His resurrection.

Anyway, coming back to what was being discussed, it seems to me that a spiritual body, in contrast to the natural body, is not a completely non-physical body, but rather one that can take on different forms including a physical form. Like Jesus did. Yet, He could go right through locked doors or walls as well.

Good critcal thinking, all that is known on my side of the fence is that nothing will compare to what Yahava has in store for those who love him.

 

[rwb]

Good grief. I was not intending to give power, glory and honor to anyone but God. How can you not know me better than this? If the bodies we have are glorious and powerful that doesn't mean we're equal to God. Angels are very powerful. Does that mean they deserve glory and honor? No. Only God does. I would never say otherwise. By saying our bodies with be glorious and powerful just means we'll have capabilities far beyond what we have now. Is there something wrong with that? I'm not trying to make this about us, I'm simply contrasting the bodies we have now with the bodies we'll have after we're changed.

Paul doesn't say our bodies resurrected and changed shall be glorious and powerful, with capabilities far beyond what we have now. That is your assumption, because you think our resurrected physical bodies shall be spiritual bodies. And to your mind spiritual beings will have powers like that possessed by angels of God. We shall be resurrected IN glory, not for or with glory, and resurrected IN power, not with of capable of great power. I have no idea of what our bodies resurrected will look like. What I do know is that the bodies in the graves are the bodies resurrected and changed to immortality & incorruptibility. Assuming anymore about our bodies that shall be resurrected is making assumptions based on the faulty understanding that our physical bodies are going to be resurrected spiritual bodies.

Why do you think this? In 1 John 3:2 it says "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is". Do you think Jesus's body does not possess supernatural powers? I believe it does. It says we will be like Him at that point. The angels are very powerful. What is wrong with the idea of us being powerful at that point? It doesn't mean we will boast about it or anything, which seems to be your concern. The angels don't boast about their power despite being very powerful.

To be like Jesus, is having immortal and incorruptible life on the new earth. Since Jesus is God, I do not imagine that after being physically resurrected I shall possess His supernatural powers. You believe we will have supernatural powers because you think our resurrected physical bodies will be transformed into spiritual bodies, and as spirits we shall have the same powers as Christ and the angels in heaven.

Yes, of course! Did you think I thought otherwise? But, that is our spirit, not our body. Why do you think the spirit can't have life apart from a body?

I've been telling you ad nauseum that it is our spirit that shall not die when our natural body does. Which is why Paul writes that our natural body dies and we as spiritual body go to be with the Lord in heaven. Where do you read that I have ever said the spirit can't have life apart from a body?

I believe it's you who doesn't understand. You believe in a resurrection of the dead upon death when scripture never teaches such a thing. It only teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurrected from the dead when Christ returns at the last trumpet.

The resurrection belongs to the DEAD, not that which is alive in Christ. Since the spirit in man possessing the Holy Spirit by new birth through Christ, NEVER dies. When our natural body dies, Paul doesn't say we are 'resurrected' a spiritual body. He says "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The spirit, ALIVE, leaves our natural body upon death (according to Paul) and is RAISED alive through Christ's Spirit in us a spiritual body. Or to say it another way, having died a natural physical/human being in the body of Christ, in death the spirit alive leaves the natural/physical human still in the body of Christ, but then without flesh & bones, but as a spirit/soul.

Paul was not speaking corporately here. He was talking about each individual body. Your body is a natural body. My body is a natural body. Each individual body will be raised a spiritual body. You are taking Paul completely out of context.

Together all the saints belong to the body of Christ. So, when each one individually dies and their spirit departs this world, individually we still in Christ as a spiritual body that has departed from the natural body of believers on earth.

Are you saying you think I don't believe the words of Christ?

Not at all! I'm saying the same thing that Paul says. After death there is still spiritual life for those who die in Christ.

No, at death our souls and spirits will separate from our dead bodies and go to be with Christ in heaven. Think about it. Did John say he saw spiritual bodies in his visions in Revelation 6 and 20? No, he said he saw the souls of the dead in Christ. Why didn't he say he saw their spiritual bodies if they have spiritual bodies in heaven?

The word translated "saw" in both Rev 6 & 20 doesn't mean John saw these souls with natural sight. It means that John was given to know, understand, perceive or have knowledge of souls alive in heaven after they had physically died on earth. Man is made of body + spirit and together every living breathing creature upon the earth are called "souls." It is the spirit of man in Christ that departs the natural body and as spiritual body is raised to heaven. Where there is life, there is a soul. Our body without the spirit is no longer a soul, but a corpse. But our spirit being raised alive after our body dies continues to be a living soul. That's why John was given to understand there are souls of saints in heaven, having been martyred in life, now with the Lord as living (spirit) souls. That's because Christ has risen from the dead body, and like Him His body too shall in death be risen spiritually with Him.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ is the firstfruits of heaven, having spiritually risen from the dead corpse that was His natural body, He is now in heaven a spiritual body, and since Christ was also resurrected from the dead, His body of believers shall also be bodily resurrected immortal & incorruptible and reunited with their spirit that returns with Christ. Once again the body of believers shall be complete again as in the beginning before being cursed by sin and death.

The body of Christ was resurrected, just as the body of Christ's saints shall be resurrected when the last trumpet sounds. But when His body died on the cross, the spirit of Christ was raised or ascended ALIVE into the hands of the Father in heaven, which is where He now is, and where we shall be a spiritual body of believers after our body ceases to have life.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

 

[rwb]

Yes, I understand that He was able to eat and be touched at that point. That's obvious. But, at the same time, He was able to just suddenly appear before them even though the doors were locked. So, He obviously didn't have the same kind of body that we have now, which is really my point. I never said that the body He has or the body we will have in the future can't take physical form. But, it clearly will not be subject to the laws of gravity and other laws of nature that our bodies are subject to now.

Why would our resurrected bodies that shall be immortal & incorruptible not be subject to the laws of gravity and other laws of nature as we are now? There is no evidence that A&E were not subjected to laws of gravity and other natural laws. Why would we not be like them, since in the beginning they had no knowledge of evil or death, and God called them "very good"?

 

[rwb]

Amen! And The Powerful Christ also Revealed to Paul:

1Co_6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?..."

Since angel is translated as both human messengers of God as well as heavenly beings, I believe the context tells us that the body of Christ corporately should be able to judge one another in the smallest and greatest of matters, rather than submitting judgment for the body to those who are worldly or unsaved. Paul asks why they do not know that they are to judge messengers of God and should not turn to the law before unbelievers. In the Church, which is the body of Christ, believers are to determine among themselves what, and who is guilty before God, not guilty before unsaved mankind.

1 Corinthians 6:3-6 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul doesn't say our bodies resurrected and changed shall be glorious and powerful, with capabilities far beyond what we have now. That is your assumption, because you think our resurrected physical bodies shall be spiritual bodies. And to your mind spiritual beings will have powers like that possessed by angels of God. We shall be resurrected IN glory, not for or with glory, and resurrected IN power, not with of capable of great power.

Is there some reason why you think there is a problem with thinking our bodies after we're changed will have far greater capabilities than they do now? You are missing the context of what Paul said. Let's take a look at it. This is what Paul said regarding the natural body people have now.

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Was Paul not contrasting how our bodies are now and how they will be in the future? He clearly was, right? What does it mean to you to be resurrected in glory? To me, it means the opposite of being "sown in dishonour". So, what does that mean? To me, it relates to it being corruptible. It's dishonorable because of the sins we commit while in our natural bodies. So, to me, being raised in glory means we will have a body that we are not capable of using to sin.

Paul said our natural body is "sown in weakness". That means our bodies are weak. They are limited in what they can do. They are subject to the laws of gravity and to decay and such. So, what does it mean for our bodies to be "raised in power" then? To me, it means the opposite of being weak and limited like our bodies are now. We will not be subject to the laws of gravity. We will be able to go through physical objects like doors or walls like Jesus did. And who knows what else. What else could it mean?

I have no idea of what our bodies resurrected will look like.

Yet, you act as if you know all about what our bodies will be capable of that point for some reason. I wish I knew why you apparently have a problem with the idea of our bodies having far greater capabilities then than they do now.

What I do know is that the bodies in the graves are the bodies resurrected and changed to immortality & incorruptibility. Assuming anymore about our bodies that shall be resurrected is making assumptions based on the faulty understanding that our physical bodies are going to be resurrected spiritual bodies.

I completely disagree. Paul contrasted the bodies we have now with the bodies we will have. I don't know how you are missing that. He said the bodies we have now are weak. In contrast, the bodies we will have then will be powerful. Whatever that means exactly. But, it seems to indicate they will have greater capabilities than we have now. And why wouldn't that be the case?

To be like Jesus, is having immortal and incorruptible life on the new earth. Since Jesus is God, I do not imagine that after being physically resurrected I shall possess His supernatural powers.

LOL. Who is saying that? Not me. Angels are very powerful, but are they as powerful as God? No. All I'm saying is that our bodies will be more powerful than they are now. Is that really such a controversial thing to say?

You believe we will have supernatural powers because you think our resurrected physical bodies will be transformed into spiritual bodies, and as spirits we shall have the same powers as Christ and the angels in heaven.

Why wouldn't we have powers similar to that? Scripture says we will judge the angels. But, we will be less powerful than them? Why do you put a limit on what God can do for us when Jesus returns? I don't get it.

I've been telling you ad nauseum that it is our spirit that shall not die when our natural body does.

Everyone here knows that. Why would you need to tell me something that everyone knows? You don't need to do that.

Which is why Paul writes that our natural body dies and we as spiritual body go to be with the Lord in heaven. Where do you read that I have ever said the spirit can't have life apart from a body?

Because you keep talking about having a spiritual body when we die. It is our spirits and souls that go to heaven when we die. We will not have a spiritual body and won't need one in order to go to heaven when we die.

The resurrection belongs to the DEAD, not that which is alive in Christ. Since the spirit in man possessing the Holy Spirit by new birth through Christ, NEVER dies. When our natural body dies, Paul doesn't say we are 'resurrected' a spiritual body. He says "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The spirit, ALIVE, leaves our natural body upon death (according to Paul) and is RAISED alive through Christ's Spirit in us a spiritual body.

That is not what Paul said. When he wrote about the resurrection of the dead he said it will happen at the last trumpet when Jesus comes again. He never said that happens upon death.

Or to say it another way, having died a natural physical/human being in the body of Christ, in death the spirit alive leaves the natural/physical human still in the body of Christ, but then without flesh & bones, but as a spirit/soul.

Paul was not talking about a corporate spiritual body any more than he was talking about a corporate natural body. He was talking about the bodies of individuals.

Together all the saints belong to the body of Christ. So, when each one individually dies and their spirit departs this world, individually we still in Christ as a spiritual body that has departed from the natural body of believers on earth.

You can't seem to make up your mind. Do you believe a spiritual body is a corporate body or individual body?

Not at all! I'm saying the same thing that Paul says. After death there is still spiritual life for those who die in Christ.

The word translated "saw" in both Rev 6 & 20 doesn't mean John saw these souls with natural sight. It means that John was given to know, understand, perceive or have knowledge of souls alive in heaven after they had physically died on earth.

That is completely beside the point. The point is that he saw (however you want to understand that) a part of people which is called the soul. Why did he not instead see/perceive their spiritual bodies if they have spiritual bodies?

Man is made of body + spirit and together every living breathing creature upon the earth are called "souls."

Yes, a person can be called a soul, but scripture indicates that we also have a soul besides a body and spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Apparently, the soul and spirit are very closely joined together.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would our resurrected bodies that shall be immortal & incorruptible not be subject to the laws of gravity and other laws of nature as we are now? There is no evidence that A&E were not subjected to laws of gravity and other natural laws. Why would we not be like them, since in the beginning they had no knowledge of evil or death, and God called them "very good"?

You have such low expectations. I believe God has far better things in store for us than you realize. I honestly am completely baffled at how you are looking at all of this. Was Jesus's resurrected body subject to the laws of gravity and nature in the same way our bodies are now? Apparently not since He was able to go into a locked house without having to break in. He was just there. What do you make of that when taking into account what He was capable of doing with His resurrected body?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since angel is translated as both human messengers of God as well as heavenly beings, I believe the context tells us that the body of Christ corporately should be able to judge one another in the smallest and greatest of matters, rather than submitting judgment for the body to those who are worldly or unsaved. Paul asks why they do not know that they are to judge messengers of God and should not turn to the law before unbelievers. In the Church, which is the body of Christ, believers are to determine among themselves what, and who is guilty before God, not guilty before unsaved mankind.

1 Corinthians 6:3-6 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

I completely disagree. You are not seeing the context there. Paul was not talking about something that was happening at that time when he said we will judge angels. Notice he contrasted that with judging "things that pertain to this life". So, judging the angels/messengers does not pertain to this temporal life we are living now. Yet, you are trying to apply that to something we're doing now. No, it's something we will do in the future.

 

[rwb]

Is there some reason why you think there is a problem with thinking our bodies after we're changed will have far greater capabilities than they do now?

It's reading our assumptions into the Word of God!

I wish I knew why you apparently have a problem with the idea of our bodies having far greater capabilities then than they do now.

Because it's reading our assumptions into the Word of God.

To me, it means the opposite of being weak and limited like our bodies are now. We will not be subject to the laws of gravity. We will be able to go through physical objects like doors or walls like Jesus did. And who knows what else. What else could it mean?

This is reading your assumptions into the Word of God. Adam and Eve, being created very good could not have been very good if they were weak. Humanity became subject to weak bodies through sin. Without sin & death or knowledge of evil, they were not weak. Why would not becoming immortal and incorruptible not be enough for everlasting life on the new earth? Why do you assume what is not written?

Yet, you act as if you know all about what our bodies will be capable of that point for some reason. I wish I knew why you apparently have a problem with the idea of our bodies having far greater capabilities then than they do now.

I know better than to assume that which is not written. Assumption is the mother of all biblical errors.

Why wouldn't we have powers similar to that? Scripture says we will judge the angels. But, we will be less powerful than them? Why do you put a limit on what God can do for us when Jesus returns?

Read the verse in context so that you might understand the body of Christ corporately is called to judge the things of God, for we are to judge 'messengers' of God within the body. Not angels of God who are spirit beings, but messengers of God who are human beings. I don't put any limits on what God can do. Scripture tells me He can do ALL things! But neither do I allow assumptions to inform my understanding of Scripture.

Because you keep talking about having a spiritual body when we die. It is our spirits and souls that go to heaven when we die. We will not have a spiritual body and won't need one in order to go to heaven when we die.

The spirit given to man is what gives our natural body life. Together the body + spirit became "a living soul." (Ge 2:7) Where there is a soul there is life. It might be natural physical life, or it might be spiritual life after death, both the natural body and the spiritual body when alive are living souls. It is only through the spirit in man indwelt with the Holy Spirit that shall never die.

That is not what Paul said. When he wrote about the resurrection of the dead he said it will happen at the last trumpet when Jesus comes again. He never said that happens upon death.

That's because the physical resurrection of our dead bodies don't happen until the last trump sounds. But when the bodies of faithful saints die, our spirit, still being alive ascends to heaven a living (spiritual) soul.

That is completely beside the point. The point is that he saw (however you want to understand that) a part of people which is called the soul. Why did he not instead see/perceive their spiritual bodies if they have spiritual bodies?

Yes, John understood there is still spiritual life after physical death for those who die in Christ. That is exactly the same thing Paul is teaching us. John only knows there is life, which is, as I've already stated, wherever there is life there is a living soul. The life can be physical or spiritual, it doesn't matter in life we are living souls with body and spirit, and in death, in Christ we are living souls through our spirit that is raised to heaven a spiritual body when our body of flesh and bones dies.

Yes, a person can be called a soul, but scripture indicates that we also have a soul besides a body and spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Apparently, the soul and spirit are very closely joined together.

Where there is life on earth, whether man or beast, it is a living soul, having both a physical body and a spirit. To have a "whole spirit" is to be physically alive. Paul prays that God will sanctify us wholly, and our whole lives (spirit) both our soul and body may be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord. Not partial sanctification, but sanctification of the whole human.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word soul here speaks of the Word dividing our living body of flesh & bones (joints and marrow) and spirit (discerner of thoughts & intents of the heart) that we may come to know that all creatures are made known to God.

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Matthew 10:26-28 (KJV) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[rwb]

You have such low expectations. I believe God has far better things in store for us than you realize. I honestly am completely baffled at how you are looking at all of this. Was Jesus's resurrected body subject to the laws of gravity and nature in the same way our bodies are now? Apparently not since He was able to go into a locked house without having to break in. He was just there. What do you make of that when taking into account what He was capable of doing with His resurrected body?

I don't want to know what you believe SI, I want to know what you can prove through the Scriptures. I have NOT low expectations of what God has promised His own. You continue to believe what you assume and cannot prove. The problem as I see it, is that on one hand you say you believe death of the body of believers does not mean death of our spirit/soul? But then you deny that Paul tells us there is indeed life through our spirit after our body dies, and that life ascends or is raised to heaven then. Then you argue our resurrected flesh will be resurrected a spiritual body, as if that assumption makes any sense whatsoever??? Now you compare what you assume we might be able to do in our resurrected bodies to what Christ did in His resurrected body.

 

[MatthewG]

1 Corinthains 2

Spiritual Wisdom
(Ephesians 1:15–23)

6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God,awhich He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9Rather, as it is written:

“No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no heart has imagined,

what God has prepared for those who love Him.”b

10But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.c

14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?”dBut we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's reading our assumptions into the Word of God!

Of course, that's what I believe you are doing, so...yeah.

Because it's reading our assumptions into the Word of God.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm going by what Paul said. You think you are, too. Let's leave these petty accusations out of the discussion or the discussion is just going to be over. It's up to you.

This is reading your assumptions into the Word of God. Adam and Eve, being created very good could not have been very good if they were weak. Humanity became subject to weak bodies through sin. Without sin & death or knowledge of evil, they were not weak. Why would not becoming immortal and incorruptible not be enough for everlasting life on the new earth? Why do you assume what is not written?

I'm not doing that. It is written that our bodies are sown in weakness and will be resurrected in power. So, I see a contrast being made there between a weak body and a powerful body. I think that's quite reasonable. I am assuming nothing and don't appreciate that accusation.

I know better than to assume that which is not written. Assumption is the mother of all biblical errors.

If anyone is making assumptions here, it's you. It seems to me that you are only assuming that the dead are immediately raised with a spiritual body even though Paul never actually says that. He talks about the dead being raised at Christ's second coming at the last trumpet, but never immediately after someone dies.

Read the verse in context so that you might understand the body of Christ corporately is called to judge the things of God, for we are to judge 'messengers' of God within the body.

You completely ignored what I pointed out. Paul contrasted the judging of the angels/messengers with judging things that pertain to this lifetime. That means the judging of the angels/messengers does not occur during this lifetime. Why are you ignoring the context of what Paul said?

Not angels of God who are spirit beings, but messengers of God who are human beings. I don't put any limits on what God can do. Scripture tells me He can do ALL things! But neither do I allow assumptions to inform my understanding of Scripture.

Neither do I.

Where there is life on earth, whether man or beast, it is a living soul, having both a physical body and a spirit. To have a "whole spirit" is to be physically alive. Paul prays that God will sanctify us wholly, and our whole lives (spirit) both our soul and body may be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord. Not partial sanctification, but sanctification of the whole human.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word soul here speaks of the Word dividing our living body of flesh & bones (joints and marrow) and spirit (discerner of thoughts & intents of the heart) that we may come to know that all creatures are made known to God.

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Matthew 10:26-28 (KJV) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I just don't get how you are looking at these things. Paul very specifically referred to 3 parts of human beings: the spirit, the soul and the body, and you still deny that he was talking about the soul as a separate part of us. I just don't get that at all.

 

[rwb]

I completely disagree. You are not seeing the context there. Paul was not talking about something that was happening at that time when he said we will judge angels. Notice he contrasted that with judging "things that pertain to this life". So, judging the angels/messengers does not pertain to this temporal life we are living now. Yet, you are trying to apply that to something we're doing now. No, it's something we will do in the future.

Here is the reason the body of Christ is told to judge human messengers of God. Not all are called to be human messengers from God. For that reason we are to judge those who come to us as having a message from God, but in reality, are false witnesses. Since we are called to judge those who say they are sent from God, (human messengers) how much more should we be judges between our selves within the body of Christ over every little or big matter pertaining to the Church?

Hebrews 13:2 (KJV) Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels (human messengers) unawares.

1 Corinthians 6:3-6 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't want to know what you believe SI, I want to know what you can prove through the Scriptures.

I have done that by showing the contrast Paul made between the natural body and the spiritual body. You can disagree with my conclusions all you want, but you cannot accuse me of not backing up my claims with scripture. You know I do that all the time and this is no exception.

I have NOT low expectations of what God has promised His own. You continue to believe what you assume and cannot prove.

Why are you acting as if you've proven anything? You haven't. We both are backing up our beliefs with scripture as we understand it. There's no need for these accusations that I'm just assuming things. If you continue doing that then this discussion will be over.

The problem as I see it, is that on one hand you say you believe death of the body of believers does not mean death of our spirit/soul?

Of course it doesn't. Paul made it clear that he expected to be present with the Lord after departing his body (after his body died).

But then you deny that Paul tells us there is indeed life through our spirit after our body dies, and that life ascends or is raised to heaven then.

No, I do not! Where in the world did you get that from? Tell me exactly what I said to give you that impression. I have said several times that I believe a person's soul and spirit depart from the body and go to heaven when we die.

Then you argue our resurrected flesh will be resurrected a spiritual body, as if that assumption makes any sense whatsoever???

I have explained many times now my understanding of what that means and I believe my explanation makes a lot of sense. Are you thinking that a spiritual body implies a completely non-material body? If so, that could be the cause of your confusion. That's not my understanding of what a spiritual body is. Jesus had a spiritual body after His resurrection. It allowed Him to just appear seemingly out of nowhere inside a locked home, but it also allowed Him to eat food and be touched. That's my understanding of a spiritual body. It's spiritual in the sense that it's immortal in contrast to our mortal, natural bodies. If you think that doesn't make sense, then so be it, but I think it makes perfect sense.

Now you compare what you assume we might be able to do in our resurrected bodies to what Christ did in His resurrected body.

It's not as if that is based on my imagination. It's based on this verse that I've shared multiple times now:

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

How do you interpret this verse? How exactly do you think we will be like Him when He appears and we see Him as He is? To me, it at least partly means we will have an immortal body at that point like He already has and I believe we will be able to do things with our changed, immortal bodies similar to what He could do, such as appear within a physical place without having to open a door to get there. What in the world is wrong with believing that we will be able to do things like that, anyway?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is the reason the body of Christ is told to judge human messengers of God. Not all are called to be human messengers from God. For that reason we are to judge those who come to us as having a message from God, but in reality, are false witnesses. Since we are called to judge those who say they are sent from God, (human messengers) how much more should we be judges between our selves within the body of Christ over every little or big matter pertaining to the Church?

Hebrews 13:2 (KJV) Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels (human messengers) unawares.

1 Corinthians 6:3-6 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

You continue to not address my point. Why is that? Read 1 Cor 6:3 again. Can you not see that Paul was contrasting judging angels/messengers at some point in the future with judging things that pertain to this life now? Why are you acting as if him saying we shall judged angels/messengers has anything to do with something we do during this lifetime when he very specifically contrasted that with things we do during this lifetime?

 

[rwb]

I just don't get how you are looking at these things. Paul very specifically referred to 3 parts of human beings: the spirit, the soul and the body, and you still deny that he was talking about the soul as a separate part of us. I just don't get that at all.

I can only go by what is written. In Gen 2 God said He formed man's body of flesh & bones from the dust of the earth, and breathed life (which is spirit) into His created being. And that man became a living soul. Body + spirit = living soul. Two parts that together create life, and that life, whether animal or human is called a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Part one - man formed of the dust of the ground that is the body
Part two - man is given the breath of life that is spirit

As you can see these two parts of man together became a living soul. Where there is life there is a soul.

The breath - Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5397. נְשָׁמָה neshamah (nᵉshâmâh)
Search for H5397 in KJVSL; in KJV.

נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Soul - Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5315. נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (nephesh)
Search for H5315 in KJVSL; in KJV.

נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh

from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

 

[rwb]

I have explained many times now my understanding of what that means and I believe my explanation makes a lot of sense. Are you thinking that a spiritual body implies a completely non-material body? If so, that could be the cause of your confusion. That's not my understanding of what a spiritual body is. Jesus had a spiritual body after His resurrection. It allowed Him to just appear seemingly out of nowhere inside a locked home, but it also allowed Him to eat food and be touched. That's my understanding of a spiritual body. It's spiritual in the sense that it's immortal in contrast to our mortal, natural bodies. If you think that doesn't make sense, then so be it, but I think it makes perfect sense.

The spiritual body of Christ in heaven is non-material. It shall be as spirit beings in heaven, celestial/heavenly without a body, but not without life. It will be a spirit or living soul. The body Christ appeared in after His resurrection was not a spiritual body. His body was human with flesh & blood, and the spirit in His body gave life to His body. He was then with body + spirit a living soul. I do not believe your understanding of what a spiritual body means aligns with Scripture. Immortality does not make a spiritual body. Immortality makes a body of flesh & bones that shall never die. Spiritual life comes from our spirit through the Spirit of Christ in us. A spirit is not visible, that's why I don't believe our physical bodies will be resurrected spiritual bodies. They will be resurrected immortal & incorruptible alive forever through our eternal, invisible spirit in them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can only go by what is written.

I only go by what is written as well, so it's pointless to say things like this. It comes across as if you're saying I'm not going by what is written. I am. But, I interpret some things that are written differently than you. So be it. We both know we also interpret many other things the same. I am about ready to agree to disagree on this topic at this point. We have already discussed it in a lot of depth and we're mostly just repeating ourselves at this point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The spiritual body of Christ in heaven is non-material.

When Paul talked about a spiritual body, he was not talking about the corporate body of Christ. He was comparing one type of individual body (the natural body like we all have) with another type of individual body that he called a spiritual body.

It shall be as spirit beings in heaven, celestial/heavenly without a body, but not without life.

So, you acknowledge that it is the spirits of the dead in Christ that are in heaven now, right? And they don't have a body? That's what I believe as well. But, the idea that Paul was talking about a corporate spiritual body of Christ is just not there in the context of 1 Cor 15.

It will be a spirit or living soul. The body Christ appeared in after His resurrection was not a spiritual body.

It was a spiritual body in the sense that it was immortal. Natural things are mortal. Spiritual things are eternal. You keep thinking in terms of physical and non-physical bodies, but that is not the contrast that Paul was making between the natural and spiritual body.

His body was human with flesh & blood, and the spirit in His body gave life to His body. He was then with body + spirit a living soul. I do not believe your understanding of what a spiritual body means aligns with Scripture.

And I do not believe your understanding of what a spiritual body means aligns with scripture because Paul did not talk about a spiritual body in a corporate sense as you believe.

Immortality does not make a spiritual body.

Yes, it does. Again, spiritual things are immortal and natural things are mortal. That is the contrast that Paul was making in terms of our bodies.