Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[Spiritual Israelite]

So your claim is that because He didn't specify any particular war, nation, famine, pestilence or earthquake, therefore His predictions were useless.

That was not my claim at all. Honestly, this is the kind of response I would expect from someone like Timtofly, not from you. In no way, shape or form did I say His predictions were useless.

If His predictions about the period leading up to 70AD were useless, then there is no reason to believe that those predictions will be less useless about any period at the end of the age.

And He was simply wasting His time and ours.

And what we have is an example of inspired useless Scripture.

This is a disappointing response. You're better than this. How you concluded that I was saying His predictions were useless is beyond me, but that is not at all what I was saying. I suggest you re-read what I said. His predictions about those things had to do with things getting worse and worse before the end and that's why he compared them to birth pains. They get more severe and more frequent as a woman gets closer to labor. So, my point is that Jesus was talking about global things like those as being evidence of the global event that was approaching. So, I don't see His predictions as being useless at all.

 

[WPM]

When do you plan to start?

If you think that you are succeeding by name-calling and insults then can i can guarantee it is not working. I thought you were better than that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here's how "sunteleias" is translated in the NASB:

Matthew 24:3
And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

You need to correct your misquote.

I didn't misquote anything. What is the reason for your unnecessary rudeness? The word "sunteleias" means "end", not "end of the age". The Greek word meaning "age" is "aion". It's a separate word.

Jesus is not the author of confusion, which is why He used two different terms in different contexts. And no, they are not synonyms, as Jesus used them.

You have the right to that opinion, but the fact is that they can be used as synonyms.

 

[WPM]

I'm talking to a fantasy futurist. Not much difference.

I'll take 2 or 3 line replies over a bloated surfeit of private interpretation, every time.

But keep that Scripture coming. Every quote of yours re-confirms the reality:

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

It is pointless talking to you until you clam down, become respectful and get serious about addressing Holy Writ. Your petty name-calling is not working. What is more: your opinions will never trump God's Word.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no intermingling in verses 1-28. Great confusion results from thinking that there is.

No. He addresses the events in the order of the questions posed about them. The first event is the physical destruction of the temple, which Jesus addresses in His descriptions of the events and phenomena leading up to the "telos" end of physical Jerusalem and Israel in 70AD; in the verses up to verse 28.

Why do you cut if off there at verse 28? If you think everything up to that point is regarding what happened in 70 AD then you have no choice but to conclude that about at least verses 29-31 as well. So, how do you interpret Matthew 24:29-31?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When did you decide to sell out to Darby/Scofield dispensational futurism?

This comment was completely uncalled for. What is causing you to be so bitter and condescending towards someone who you agree with otherwise a vast majority of the time? You know darn well that WPM's overall beliefs are far from "Darby/Scofield dispensational futurism", so why would you say something like this? Just because he disagrees with you on the meaning of one passage?

 

[covenantee]

Why do you cut if off there at verse 28? If you think everything up to that point is regarding what happened in 70 AD then you have no choice but to conclude that about at least verses 29-31 as well. So, how do you interpret Matthew 24:29-31?

I certainly do have a choice. I'm undecided, as those verses could apply to either the 70AD era event, or to the Second Coming.

If you accept verse 34 as written, they apply to 70AD. However, I haven't cast my lot with that interpretation.

How do you interpret them?

 

[covenantee]

It is pointless talking to you until you clam down, become respectful and get serious about addressing Holy Writ. Your petty name-calling is not working. What is more: your opinions will never trump God's Word.

The truth stands unassailed.

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

 

[WPM]

The truth stands unassailed.

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

I showed you various Scriptures above but you refused to acknowledge/address them. You must have no viable answer. If you had a rebuttal you would definitely give it. That is who you are. On most issues, you stand on strong biblical ground. On this subject, we are dealing with your opinions and men's quotes. That will never cut it. Sorry!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Perhaps the difficulty comes because we try to literalize what might become logical when we understand the warnings of things to come must be spiritually discerned?

I don't see any indication at all that Jesus is not being literal in verses 4-14.

Because Christ is detailing for His people (the Church) throughout the ages the great spiritual conflicts between good and evil as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being built through the power of His Gospel and Spirit in us. There are some things in the Discourse that certainly can be applied to the first century AD.

I would think so since He specifically prophesied that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed and we know that they were destroyed in 70 AD.

But most of the things spoken cannot be limited to a single nation or generation of Christians. All that is written is for "whosoever readeth, let him understand"!

I don't think it says that in order to indicate what follows is meant to be taken in a spiritual sense rather than literal. If verses 15-22 are meant to be taken in a spiritual sense then what was Jesus talking about when He said those in Judea should flee to the mountains? What did He mean when He indicated that the distress/tribulation He described and the need to flee from it would be particularly difficult for nursing mothers and pregnant women and that it would be particularly difficult during the winter or on the Sabbath?

In the same manner we discern what John has written in the Revelation certainly applies to the seven churches the epistles were specifically addressed to! But we know what is written to them addresses every church throughout the ages. So too the words Christ spoke from the Mt of Olives. While He is certainly warning His first disciples who are Jews, so too the warnings are for all of His disciples.

I agree. Since no one knew the day or hour of His coming and the end of the age, then anyone hearing Him or reading His words of warning were meant to heed them. With that said, I think He was also partly referring to a future time before His coming at the end of the age during which wickedness would be greatly increased as well as the number of people turning away from the faith. Which is something Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2 as well. I see passages like those as referring to Satan's little season.

The disciples want to know what sign they would have that they might believe the total end or consummation of this world, they were told and believed would never end, woul be? They had to have a sign! We learn from other portions of Scripture the sign they and every disciple throughout the ages would receive is the Holy Spirit in them. Which is Christ in them. They ask Christ what shall be the sign of His presence/parousia/being near that they might believe the consummation of the present age and entire world shall end when He shall physically come again?

Where did Jesus indicate that the sign they were asking about would be the Holy Spirit they would receive?

 

[covenantee]

I didn't misquote anything.

So did the NASB misquote you?

The Greek word meaning "age" is "aion". It's a separate word.

Yes, and it is a separate word which follows every instance of the word "sunteleia".

You have the right to that opinion, but the fact is that they can be used as synonyms.

Where did Jesus use them as synonyms?

 

[covenantee]

I showed you various Scriptures above but you refused to acknowledge/address them. You must have no viable answer. If you had a rebuttal you would definitely give it. That is who you are. On most issues, you stand on strong biblical ground. On this subject, we are dealing with your opinions and men's quotes. That will never cut it. Sorry!

The rebuttal stands unassailed.

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The truth stands unassailed.

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

You seem to be under the impression that the word "sunteleias" means "end of the age". It does not. It means "end". So, there is not one instance where the word "sunteleias" is translated "end of the age", either. When the word "sunteleias" is used in scripture, it is also used in conjunction with the word "aion", but that is a separate word from "sunteleias". I don't see any reason that "the end" that will come when Jesus comes has to always be referred to with the word ""sunteleias". In fact, I previously showed cases in scripture where the word "telos" is used in relation to the end when Jesus comes (1 Cor 15:24 comes to mind).

 

[covenantee]

That was not my claim at all. Honestly, this is the kind of response I would expect from someone like Timtofly, not from you. In no way, shape or form did I say His predictions were useless.


This is a disappointing response. You're better than this. How you concluded that I was saying His predictions were useless is beyond me, but that is not at all what I was saying. I suggest you re-read what I said. His predictions about those things had to do with things getting worse and worse before the end and that's why he compared them to birth pains. They get more severe and more frequent as a woman gets closer to labor. So, my point is that Jesus was talking about global things like those as being evidence of the global event that was approaching. So, I don't see His predictions as being useless at all.

I believe that 70AD and the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel were of both local and global significance. If not the latter, we wouldn't be discussing them today.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So did the NASB misquote you?

You are not getting the point. You need to step back and look at what was actually being discussed here, which was the meaning of the word "sunteleias". I said it means "the end". Which is true! It does not mean "the end of the age" as you are trying to claim. Again, the word "age" is a separate word, "aion". So, "sunteleias" means "end" and "aion" means "age". I misquoted nothing.

Yes, and it is a separate word which follows every instance of the word "sunteleia".

Sure, that's fine. I never said otherwise.

Where did Jesus use them as synonyms?

Obviously, as I've indicated already, I believe He used "telos" as a synonym for "sunteleias" in Matthew 24 verses 6, 13 and 14. Why are you not allowing for the possibility that Jesus could have used words that are synonyms when discussing future things?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe that 70AD and the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel were of both local and global significance. If not the latter, we wouldn't be discussing them today.

You can believe what you want, but you falsely claimed that I made it as if Jesus's predictions were useless, but you don't seem to have any problem with making false claims like that. It's not what I would expect from you.

 

[covenantee]

You seem to be under the impression that the word "sunteleias" means "end of the age". It does not. It means "end". So, there is not one instance where the word "sunteleias" is translated "end of the age", either. When the word "sunteleias" is used in scripture, it is also used in conjunction with the word "aion", but that is a separate word from "sunteleias". I don't see any reason that "the end" that will come when Jesus comes has to always be referred to with the word ""sunteleias". In fact, I previously showed cases in scripture where the word "telos" is used in relation to the end when Jesus comes (1 Cor 15:24 comes to mind).

Yes, and it is a separate word which follows every instance of the word "sunteleia" when "sunteleia" is used by Jesus.

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is followed by the word "aion".

If we're interpreting Scripture with Scripture, then the undisputed best interpreter of Jesus is Jesus.

Not Paul.

 

[covenantee]

You can believe what you want, but you falsely claimed that I made it as if Jesus's predictions were useless, but you don't seem to have any problem with making false claims like that. It's not what I would expect from you.

Were 70AD and the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel of both local and global significance?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I certainly do have a choice. I'm undecided, as those verses could apply to either the 70AD era event, or to the Second Coming.

How do you have a choice exactly? If you see everything up to the end of verse 28 as referring to things related to 70 AD, then you should see that what is described in verse 29 immediately follows what was described just before that. What do you think are "those days" that Jesus referred to in verse 29?

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Whatever "those days" are referring to in verse 29, which your interpretation of everything up to verse 28 would suggest that you believe they are referring to the days around 70 AD, they are immediately followed by the second coming of Christ and gathering of the elect. Do you believe Christ came and the elect were gathered in 70 AD? I don't see any way that Matthew 24:29-31 could possibly refer to 70 AD. It's clear to me that His coming and His elect being gathered is no different than what Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

If you accept verse 34 as written, they apply to 70AD.

What does it mean to accept verse 34 as written? Does the word "genea", translated as "generation" in verse 34 have only one definition as preterists seem to think?

However, I haven't cast my lot with that interpretation.

Then it seems that you're undecided about how it is written, so why be so sure about how it should be accepted if it is accepted "as written"?

How do you interpret them?

I interpret Matthew 24:29-31 to be talking about Jesus's second coming in the future at the end of the age at which point the elect will be gathered to Him "in the air" (cross reference with 1 Thess 4:14-17). I see the tribulation referenced there as not the one that occurred in 70 AD which was more about physical tribulation, but rather about what is described in verses 23-26 where Jesus talked about a level of deception that could "deceive, if possible, even the elect". I believe He was referring to the same time that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2:1-12 where there would be an increase in the numbers of people falling away from the faith and an increase in wickedness and a higher level of deception than before. I relate those passages to Satan's little season that occurs before Christ returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, and it is a separate word which follows every instance of the word "sunteleia".

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is followed by the word "aion".

If we're interpreting Scripture with Scripture, then the undisputed best interpreter of Jesus is Jesus.

Not Paul.

I understand your point, but you seem unwilling to acknowledge that you were wrong about claiming that the word "sunteleia" means "end of the age". It doesn't.

I understand that every time Jesus used the word "sunteleia", He used it in conjunction with the word "aion". Is that proof that He would always do that whenever talking about "the end" that was in conjunction with His second coming? I don't believe so. It seems that if He wanted to use the word "end" rather than using the phrase "end of the age" then "telos" was His word of choice. If you have some kind of evidence to show that there is some rule that the word "sunteleia" is the only word that Jesus could possibly use to refer to "the end" that would come in conjunction with His second coming at the end of the age, then please share it. Otherwise, I remain unconvinced that He couldn't use two different words to refer to "the end" that is associated with His second coming.