Preterism misrepresents Scripture

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MatthewG

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I'm not sure what you mean? If by "life giving spirit" you mean the Holy Spirit, I would say no, I don't believe so.
Yes, I would agree with you too, it wouldn't be the Holy Spirit.

Another question would be if you believe there are Spirits in the World, but not to digress.

The Life giving spirit would simply be the spirit of life, like spirit of hatred, spirit of greed in the world, but it is a life giving spirit that for example gives life to animals they breathe, move around, figure out how to eat and things of that nature, just to be more clear.
The way I've come to understand the creation of man is that man was created with both an outward physical body, and the breath of life, which is the natural spirit in every man. It is the natural spirit in man that gives life to our physical body.
Yeah, that is what I am talking about.
The spirit in man controls every part of man, the brain, heart and every other organ and function of the body, as well as our emotions and without a spirit our body would be without life.
That to me would be our soul; our soul that given life by the spirit of life is awoken and then we go about from childhood to adulthood.
Our body with the spirit (breath of life) together became a living soul. As I understand it, the physical body cannot live without a spirit. However, a spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ has eternal life and can never die.
Yes, would agree. For some reason, there is no quenching of the spirit until one becomes united with the Holy Spirit that is the spirit that is quenched, and not so much the spirit of life, that of which we breathe in.
When speaking of spirit and soul it is difficult to make a distinction between the two. Because both identify having life. That's why both Paul and John write of life after physical death as souls or spiritual bodies. When we have life (spirit) and physical bodies, we are "living souls". But when the body of faithful saints dies, we are still living souls, but the life we have after physical death is spirit and not flesh & bones.
You are right it is hard to distinguish between them both and thank you for your comments toward the subject.
Hope I've explained in a way you might understand.
Yes, it does, and thank you for that, Rwb, and your insight input.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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So you don't accept a physical resurrection? I guess that explains it then.
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? The only thing you explained here is that you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever. I never said that I don't accept a physical (bodily) resurrection. Please take an online course on improving your reading comprehension skills.

One does not have to be resurrected at all. Paul was never expected to be resurrected, but alive and remain at the Second Coming.
No one said that.

Amils don't believe in a mass bodily resurrection?
Yes, we do. Where are you coming up with the idea that we don't? None of us have ever said that. Please learn how to read.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Paul did NOT say our natural body will be raised a spiritual body! That makes no sense!
Yes, he did. It makes no sense to me that you are denying what he explicitly said in 1 Cor 15:44 which is that the body we have now "is sown a natural body" and "is raised a spiritual body".

Follow what he said here....

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What did Paul say about the body that people have during this temporal lifetime? He said "it is sown in corruption", "it is sown in dishonour", "it is sown in weakness" and "it is sown a natural body".

What did he say about the body the dead in Christ will have when they are resurrected? He said "it is raised in incorruption", "it is raised in glory", "it is raised in power" and "it is raised a spiritual body". When does this resurrection occur? Upon death? No. Paul clearly taught that it will happen at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

Paul contrasted the temporal body we have now with the body we will have in the future when Christ returns. The body we each have now is "sown in corruption", "sown in dishonour", "sown in weakness" and is "a natural body". The body we will have when we are all changed at the last trumpet when Christ returns will be immortal, incorruptible, glorious, powerful and spiritual. A natural body is corruptible, dishonorable, and weak while a spiritual body is incorruptible, glorious, powerful and spiritual.

Now, to be a spiritual body doesn't mean it can't take on physical form. Maybe that's what's throwing you off. Maybe you think a spiritual body is formless and more like a spirit than a physical body? If so, I don't think that's what it means for a body to be spiritual. I think it rather means that it's immortal, incorruptible, glorious and powerful. The fact is that "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

We are flesh and bones with a spirit that gives our body life, or we are a living spiritual soul, that has no substance, is as a ghost or the air. The physical body is made to inhabit the earth or natural realm, and the spiritual body afterward is made to inhabit heaven or the spiritual realm of God.
Our souls and spirits inhabit heaven after we die. Why do you think we need a spiritual body in order to be in heaven? Do angels have bodies? I don't believe so. And, yet, they are still in heaven.

First, in this life we have a natural body that has form, that has physical life through the spirit in them. Then afterward our natural physical body dies when the spirit in them departs. That which is spiritual has no form. When Christ yields up His spirit to the Father, it is written "gave up the ghost" (Mk 15:37). Christ says a spirit does not consist of flesh and bones as the disciples first saw Him after His resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:46 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Luke 24:36-39 (KJV)
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Up to verse 51 Paul has been teaching that death for those who physically die is NOT death for our eternal spirits. If it were Christ would not have given us assurance that death no longer has a hold on those of faith in Him. We obtained ETERNAL life the moment we believed, being born again or born from above. When Christ gave us this assurance His friend Lazarus was physically dead! So that which NEVER dies after being born again is our spirit, which will live on after physical death in heaven a spiritual body, until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time for evangelizing the world with the Gospel shall be no longer.
I don't get this. For some reason you have decided that one's spirit itself can't go to heaven, but it needs a spiritual body to be there. Where are you coming up with this idea? It's not what Paul said.
 

rwb

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Yes, he did. It makes no sense to me that you are denying what he explicitly said in 1 Cor 15:44 which is that the body we have now "is sown a natural body" and "is raised a spiritual body".

Follow what he said here....

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Why does Paul say it is raised a spiritual body since the body raised is the body sown natural, but changed from mortal to immortal & corruptible to incorruptible? A spiritual body has not flesh & bones, but the body that shall be raised immortal & incorruptible will be flesh and bones. And yes, while that natural body is sown in dishonor, and raised in glory, sown in weakness and raised in power it shall not be a spiritual body that we shall be when our spirit departs our dead body of death and ascends to heaven. The natural body sown and the spiritual body raised when our body dies are not the same body.

When Paul says it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body, he is making a distinction between the dead (physical) which our natural body shall be, and life (spiritual) which we shall be when we are raised a spiritual body after our natural body dies.
What did he say about the body the dead in Christ will have when they are resurrected? He said "it is raised in incorruption", "it is raised in glory", "it is raised in power" and "it is raised a spiritual body". When does this resurrection occur? Upon death? No. Paul clearly taught that it will happen at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

If this transformation from physical to spiritual does not occur when our natural body dies, Paul would not have explained in such great detail the change from natural body to spiritual body the moment our natural body is dead. The body that shall be after our natural body dies is not at that moment changed to immortality and incorruptibility. Paul says God will give IT, what IT? The body that has died God gives a body as it pleases Him. It won't be the same flesh and bones body because there are both celestial (heavenly) bodies and terrestrial (of the earth) bodies. And that which is raised when our natural body dies and before our body of flesh & bones is raised and changed immortal and incorruptible shall be like that which is of heaven, or heavenly, which is what celestial bodies are. Spiritual bodies like the angels of God in heaven, and as is the Lord in heaven. Just as our natural body was the image of the first Adam, earthy, mortal & corruptible, so too after our body dies, and before our mortal, corruptible flesh and bones body is raised and changed we shall be a celestial/heavenly/spiritual body that pleases God, from the moment when our spirit departs our dead flesh & bones and ascends to heaven until the last trump sounds and our spirit and resurrected and changed immortal & incorruptible bodies will be reunited together and again become a complete "living soul." Not fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:35-41 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul contrasted the temporal body we have now with the body we will have in the future when Christ returns.

No, Paul contrasts the natural body destined to die, with the spiritual body that ascends to heaven ALIVE after our body is dead!

Now, to be a spiritual body doesn't mean it can't take on physical form. Maybe that's what's throwing you off. Maybe you think a spiritual body is formless and more like a spirit than a physical body? If so, I don't think that's what it means for a body to be spiritual. I think it rather means that it's immortal, incorruptible, glorious and powerful. The fact is that "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

There is a spirit being and a physical being. Our physical body will never become a spiritual body for then it would cease to be physical. Our physical body has a spirit and the two together are living souls. Scripture shows that spirit beings are capable of taking on human form. But where in Scripture do we find physical bodies becoming spirit bodies? I realize you think that becoming a spiritual body means that we physically become glorious and powerful, but you cannot prove what you think from the Bible. I've already given you proof text that says God alone has ALL honor, glory and power. When He appears and we become like Him does not mean we obtain supernatural abilities as He has. It simply means that we too shall become immortal and incorruptible as He is. Just as Adam and Eve were created natural physical beings having both body and spirit, there is no evidence that they possessed supernatural powers you imply we shall be. They were created to dwell on the earth. And like them we too shall be re-created to dwell on the new earth. Why would our new bodies not be exactly the same as they were in the beginning when God created man?

Our souls and spirits inhabit heaven after we die. Why do you think we need a spiritual body in order to be in heaven? Do angels have bodies? I don't believe so. And, yet, they are still in heaven.

Calling it a "spiritual body" simply indicates having life (spirit, breath of life) even after our natural body dies. Soul indicates being alive, which is what our spirits in heaven are. Which is why John understands the "living souls" in heaven speaks of those who remained faithful unto death and chose martyrdom and heaven rather than physical life on this earth. Together, whether on this earth or in heaven those who are of faith, and in Christ are called a body of believers.

I don't get this. For some reason you have decided that one's spirit itself can't go to heaven, but it needs a spiritual body to be there. Where are you coming up with this idea? It's not what Paul said.

The spirit alive in heaven is of the spiritual body of believers in heaven. On earth we are spiritually the body of Christ in physical form, and in heaven we will be the spiritual body of Christ in spirit form.
 

rwb

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Another question would be if you believe there are Spirits in the World, but not to digress.

The Life giving spirit would simply be the spirit of life, like spirit of hatred, spirit of greed in the world, but it is a life giving spirit that for example gives life to animals they breathe, move around, figure out how to eat and things of that nature, just to be more clear.

Yes, I do believe there are spirits in the world. The angels of God are spirits, sent from God to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation. People sometimes reference these spirits as "Guardian Angels".

Hebrews 1:13 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 1:14 (KJV) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


There are also the spirits of devils and demons who masquerade as angels of light, but who are evil spirits that attack and destroy.

The spirit in man, that makes them and every other living, breathing creature alive is that which controls every part & function of the physical body on earth. Yes, our emotions come from our spirit within which gives function to our mind, and heart. Through the spirit of life in every living creature, our body functions by electrical signals from our brain that sends blood flowing through every part. Nothing of any physical being would function without a natural spirit. There is both a natural spirit that makes all forms of physical life function, and there is a supernatural Holy Spirit sent from Christ to all who believe. Without the natural spirit every living breathing upon the face of the earth becomes a corpse. Altogether without life! But through the Spirit sent from Christ that is only in man/woman of faith, when our body becomes a corpse, the spirit in us, through the Holy Spirit of Christ, continues to preserve alive the spirit in us.

In addition to having a spirit, every living, breathing creature alive upon the earth is a soul. The soul is what we are when we possess life. This life can be physical or spiritual life, but as long as life is present man is called a soul. When the body dies, without a spirit they are a corpse. When we die without the Holy Spirit in our spirit, we are no longer a soul, because life has altogether ceased. But the spirit in man indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ will physically die but our spirit, through the Holy Spirit will ascend to heaven ALIVE and there he/she shall still be a soul. A soul without a body, but not without spiritual life through Christ's Spirit in us.

That is how I have come to understand the difference between natural spirit in every creature, the Holy Spirit only in those who in life believe, and the soul which is what every creature possessing life is called.
 

Timtofly

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Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? The only thing you explained here is that you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever. I never said that I don't accept a physical (bodily) resurrection. Please take an online course on improving your reading comprehension skills.


No one said that.


Yes, we do. Where are you coming up with the idea that we don't? None of us have ever said that. Please learn how to read.
What would be the point of a physical resurrection, if you call the new body spiritual? That would be a mass spiritual resurrection, not physical.

You think the physical body is changed to a spiritual body. That would mean by your own terms it is no longer physical, but spiritual, whatever that means.

I pointed out that the soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh which is temporal, and enters a permanent incorruptible physical body from God. That is a physical resurrection, because the body is still physical, not spiritual, whatever that means. You claim that is wrong, so your resurrection is not physical, but spiritual whatever you mean by that as you seem to imply it cannot be physical or you would use the word physical instead of spiritual.

Seems you just don't want to use the word physical in reference to the resurrection. Or you just want to be argumentative, and then accuse me of not understanding your post.

If the resurrection you claim is physical, you go way out of your way to agree with me, but insert the word spiritual as in total opposition to the word physical.

Paul never used the word spiritual in opposition to the word physical. Paul used earthly in opposition to heavenly. Carnel in opposition to holy. So it would be natural in opposition to spiritual. Never physical in opposition to spiritual. Either of the earth, or of God. Earth being the dead condition caused by sin.

The son of God includes both a physical body, and a spirit. And that spirit has form. Not just air as the Greek word means just air. The spirit that makes up the third part of this trinity is not air. That word was used because the Holy Spirit is likened to air. Surely no one thinks the Holy Spirit is just air.

The point is a son of God is 100% spiritual and 100% physical. Not one or the other. Physical is not the opposite of spiritual. Paul is saying the body from God is holy and perfect. That is also a definition of spiritual. Being of God is being spiritual. God is spirit. God is also light. One could say that body is light as well as spiritual.

Being planted into the ground as a seed is not literal, but figurative. A new body does not come out of the ground. In 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul says that other body is from God in heaven, not from God from the dust of the ground, nor the old body changed into a new body from the ground.

The point Paul was making was that there is a totally different body, not the body that returns to dust. Even Jesus says the current body returns to dust. Jesus says let the dead bury the dead. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. The soul does not return to a dead body, but a totally different body from God that is alive, not dead. No one is waiting for a resurrection of the old body. That is a misunderstanding that theology itself wrongly teaches every new generation. Theology takes Paul literally that the body is a seed planted in the ground and comes up some day as a new body out of the ground.

All Paul was pointing out that there is a new and different body. There is no resurrection of the old one. Those in Paradise are going to be gathered with bodies they already have and meet in the air between Paradise and earth, those from the earth, who are the only ones who need a new body.
 

rwb

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What would be the point of a physical resurrection, if you call the new body spiritual? That would be a mass spiritual resurrection, not physical.

The purpose for a physical resurrection to immortality and incorruption is because we must be complete again to live throughout eternity on the new earth. Human bodies are destined to die. When the spirit in believers ascends to heaven after our mortal body dies, we are without flesh & bones. While it's fine to belong to a "spiritual body" in heaven (heaven was created for spirit beings), the new earth, like this first earth shall be re-created for human beings with body & spirit together 'living souls.'
 

rwb

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You think the physical body is changed to a spiritual body. That would mean by your own terms it is no longer physical, but spiritual, whatever that means.

No it doesn't make sense IF we insist our physical resurrected body will become a spiritual body? What does make sense and is the point Paul consistently makes in 1Cor 15 is that death of our body does not mean death of our spirit. When our body dies, our spirit, through the Holy Spirit within goes to heaven a "spiritual body." IOW still alive and belonging to the spiritual body of saints in heaven. We were spiritual/physical bodies of Christ when we were on earth, so when we die in faith we continue to belong to the body of Christ in heaven as spiritual body without physical form. That's what Paul means when he says, 1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When the last trump sounds our body too will be resurrected from the grave immortal and incorruptible of flesh & bones, having life from our spirit that returns with Christ. Then we shall be perfect once again as man was in the beginning at creation before sin and death entered in. In perfection we shall be with Christ forevermore on the new earth.
 

Timtofly

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The fact is that "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).
I think you are confusing the word "appear" with being able "to understand". We already known from the mount of Transfiguration how being a son of God appears and is. We just currently are not that son of God physically at the moment. Being a son of God is not a common appearance on earth. But you cannot say it has never happened, nor had to happen after a certain point, nor a future reality for all humanity. Many here don't even think the sons of God are humans created on the 6th Day. They give their birthright to the angels. Then think we become angels to be like them.

Perhaps that may be why you reject Lazarus was given that new body? You are more futurist than some accused of being futurist.

Enoch had to receive that body, or he would not have been allowed to enter heaven to be with God until this very day. Elijah had to have had that body, or could not have entered heaven in a chariot of fire. Moses and Elijah had that body to appear on the mount when Jesus was transfigured. We know that body was given and was already a reality, not some future reality. So all the OT came out of Abraham's bosom at the moment Jesus declared it is finished, in that same permanent incorruptible physical body. Only those alive on the earth at the Second Coming need that new physical body. To be resurrected out of death is a future mass event for those currently physically alive on the earth. But you would say that is turning a figurative thought into something it is not. Oh really? You claim the same thing of a figurative notion, that all still need to be resurrected out of the ground like plants.

You deny the reality that happened to Enoch, Moses, Lazarus, and all those from the OT economy based on a plant analogy. They "appear" to you as plants, not sons of God. You deny that this resurrection is ongoing at the point the soul leaves Adam's dead flesh. You are a futurist when it comes to your mass spiritual resurrection. Paul states no one alive, even those alive 1900 years ago can prevent this ongoing phenomenon.

Paul said: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

God brings those already there with Him, Jesus. Not waiting for something to change them, but already just as Jesus Christ appears. No one comes to earth at that point, except Jesus as King of Israel. That is the Second Coming where the church is united in the air and glorified. The Second Coming is when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives.

Of course those in Paradise rise first. That is where Jesus and the angels start out from. Then the angels gather those souls out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh on earth into their new permanent incorruptible physical bodies to meet those Coming from Paradise in the air between heaven and earth. It happens so quickly that time or timing should not even be a factor, a twinkling of an eye. The same happened on the Cross, another twinkling of an eye moment, when the temple veil was torn and all those in Abraham's bosom came out with those same permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Same resurrection out of death into eternal life. John calls it the first resurrection.
 

Timtofly

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The purpose for a physical resurrection to immortality and incorruption is because we must be complete again to live throughout eternity on the new earth. Human bodies are destined to die. When the spirit in believers ascends to heaven after our mortal body dies, we are without flesh & bones. While it's fine to belong to a "spiritual body" in heaven (heaven was created for spirit beings), the new earth, like this first earth shall be re-created for human beings with body & spirit together 'living souls.'
None of that explanation comes from Scripture. We know Adam was created with a physical body, not a spiritual body. An analogy is not the same as the real thing.

Adam lost that permanent incorruptible physical body, and was given a temporal, corruptible physical body.

The process is reversed to become a son of God. Adam was a son of God, then died. In death we are of Adam, no longer sons of God. To be changed is having back that original permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1.
 

rwb

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None of that explanation comes from Scripture. We know Adam was created with a physical body, not a spiritual body. An analogy is not the same as the real thing.

Adam was created, as all humans are now born, with body + spirit and declared "living souls." It is the spirit in Adam that gave his physical body life. But Adam had one advantage over all of his progeny. Through his spirit that gave his body life he could have lived forever if he had not disobeyed God and plunged himself and his whole progeny (except Christ) under the curse of sin and death. For that reason, Adam and all who came after him could only obtain eternal life through another human, which is Christ our Lord. That is what the animal sacrifice with the shedding of blood in the beginning points to.

Adam did not lose physical life the day that he ate the fruit. What he lost was spiritual. In stead of seeking God, he and Eve hid from God because they knew they had sinned and the death that followed their sin was fellowship with the Creator.

Only those who are born of God, or born from above/again are called "sons of God." The rest of humanity, as a result of the curse that came upon the whole of creation, is under the power of the voice in the garden they chose to listen too as they rejected their Creator. They chose for themselves and the whole human race to serve another master, thinking they could become like God having all knowledge and be immortal.
 

Timtofly

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No it doesn't make sense IF we insist our physical resurrected body will become a spiritual body? What does make sense and is the point Paul consistently makes in 1Cor 15 is that death of our body does not mean death of our spirit. When our body dies, our spirit, through the Holy Spirit within goes to heaven a "spiritual body." IOW still alive and belonging to the spiritual body of saints in heaven. We were spiritual/physical bodies of Christ when we were on earth, so when we die in faith we continue to belong to the body of Christ in heaven as spiritual body without physical form. That's what Paul means when he says, 1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When the last trump sounds our body too will be resurrected from the grave immortal and incorruptible of flesh & bones, having life from our spirit that returns with Christ. Then we shall be perfect once again as man was in the beginning at creation before sin and death entered in. In perfection we shall be with Christ forevermore on the new earth.
The body is always physical. The spirit is always our spiritual part. Two separate aspects to who we are: soul, body, and spirit. Not at odds with each other. Both physical and spiritual in one being.
 

Timtofly

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Adam was created, as all humans are now born, with body + spirit and declared "living souls." It is the spirit in Adam that gave his physical body life. But Adam had one advantage over all of his progeny. Through his spirit that gave his body life he could have lived forever if he had not disobeyed God and plunged himself and his whole progeny (except Christ) under the curse of sin and death. For that reason, Adam and all who came after him could only obtain eternal life through another human, which is Christ our Lord. That is what the animal sacrifice with the shedding of blood in the beginning points to.

Adam did not lose physical life the day that he ate the fruit. What he lost was spiritual. In stead of seeking God, he and Eve hid from God because they knew they had sinned and the death that followed their sin was fellowship with the Creator.

Only those who are born of God, or born from above/again are called "sons of God." The rest of humanity, as a result of the curse that came upon the whole of creation, is under the power of the voice in the garden they chose to listen too as they rejected their Creator. They chose for themselves and the whole human race to serve another master, thinking they could become like God having all knowledge and be immortal.
No. Adam is the living soul, clothed in a physical body, clothed with a spirit. The spirit is not air. The spirit is the third part of our created being.

Paul points out the soul puts on an incorruptible physical body, and then puts on the spirit over the physical body.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Why does Paul say it is raised a spiritual body since the body raised is the body sown natural, but changed from mortal to immortal & corruptible to incorruptible?
I don't understand your question. Regarding the human body, Paul said in 1 Cor 15:44 "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.". That tells me that the change he references a little later, which happens right after the dead are raised at the last trumpet, is a change of the body from being natural to spiritual. A natural body is mortal, corruptible, weak and dishonorable. A spiritual body is immortal, incorruptible, glorious and powerful.

A spiritual body has not flesh & bones, but the body that shall be raised immortal & incorruptible will be flesh and bones.
How do you know this? Paul said we will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52), so how do you know we will have flesh and bones at that point after we've been changed? What is your understanding of the change that will take place at the last trumpet when Christ returns?

And yes, while that natural body is sown in dishonor, and raised in glory, sown in weakness and raised in power it shall not be a spiritual body that we shall be when our spirit departs our dead body of death and ascends to heaven. The natural body sown and the spiritual body raised when our body dies are not the same body.
I didn't say they are the same body. You are clearly not understanding my view. The natural body will be CHANGED at the last trumpet when Christ returns. It will be changed from being natural, mortal, corruptible, weak and dishonorable to being spiritual, immortal, incorruptible, powerful and glorious. I've said this several times now, but you don't seem to understand my point.

When Paul says it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body, he is making a distinction between the dead (physical) which our natural body shall be, and life (spiritual) which we shall be when we are raised a spiritual body after our natural body dies.
Nowhere does he say anything about the dead in Christ being resurrected right after they die. He only talks about the dead in Christ being resurrected at the last trumpet when Christ returns. I believe you are inserting an idea into the text that Paul never mentions.

If this transformation from physical to spiritual does not occur when our natural body dies, Paul would not have explained in such great detail the change from natural body to spiritual body the moment our natural body is dead.
Where does he indicate that this happens the moment that our natural body dies? Show me. Be as specific as possible. I can show you where he talks about the dead being raised at Christ's second coming at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54), but I don't see anywhere where he says we are resurrected immediately after we die.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I think you are confusing the word "appear" with being able "to understand".
LOL. No, I'm not. You are the one who is always confused. How can it mean that? It's talking about Jesus appearing.

1 John 3:2 (KJV): Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:2 (Timtofly Nonsense Translation - TNT): Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet understand what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall understand, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Read the verse the way you are trying to say it should be read. See how nonsensical that is? It's talking about His second coming when He will appear to all and at that point we will be like Him in terms of having a glorious, immortal body like He has now.
 

rwb

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How do you know this? Paul said we will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52), so how do you know we will have flesh and bones at that point after we've been changed? What is your understanding of the change that will take place at the last trumpet when Christ returns?

I know it from the creation account in Genesis. The outer man was created flesh and bones, with the breath of life (spirit) from God breathed into them and man became a "living soul". Since God created humans with flesh and bones and gave them a spirit (breath of life), why would I imagine God resurrecting our body that died anything other than what we're told, which is, that we will be physically changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible? Since immortality & incorruption was what man lost through the curse of death that came upon all of creation, that is what shall be restored. It makes no sense to me that man's natural body would be resurrected as an entirely different species. I don't know what you believe a spiritual physical body would be? Man is physical body with a spirit and together he/she is a living soul.

Genesis 2:21-22 (KJV) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

I didn't say they are the same body. You are clearly not understanding my view. The natural body will be CHANGED at the last trumpet when Christ returns. It will be changed from being natural, mortal, corruptible, weak and dishonorable to being spiritual, immortal, incorruptible, powerful and glorious. I've said this several times now, but you don't seem to understand my point.

Paul says only that our natural, physical bodies that return to the earth shall be raised and changed immortal & incorruptible. These bodies shall be raised IN power NOT WITH power, and IN GLORY, not with glory. That is once more in power, glory and honor that is to God alone! Paul NEVER says our changed immortal & incorruptible bodies shall possess some supernatural powers and honor you appear to believe we shall be. I've also said this several times, but you don't seem to understand.

Nowhere does he say anything about the dead in Christ being resurrected right after they die.

Since Christ tells us those who live and believe in Him NEVER die, there has to be life through our spirit after physical death. That's why Paul says we are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. Perhaps it's the word 'body' that's causing you not to understand. You seem to wonder how the saints can be a spiritual body after physical death. All believers corporately/collectively are a living body in Christ. While physically alive we are a natural (human/of the earth) body, and after physical death we shall be a spiritual body collectively/corporately in heaven a living (spirit) soul.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Where does he indicate that this happens the moment that our natural body dies?

Paul certainly believes the words of Christ.

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In life we are in Christ a natural body, so too at death we shall be in Christ a spiritual body.
 

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Paul said we will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52), so how do you know we will have flesh and bones at that point after we've been changed?
Precious friend, because:

Christ's 'Resurrected Body' on earth:
Luk_24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me,​
and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."​

And, The 'Same Body' that Ascended Into Heaven:
Eph_5:30 "For we are members of His Body, of His Flesh, And of His Bones."​

And, all 'members Of His Body' will be:

"For whom He Did Foreknow, He also Did Predestinate​
To Be Conformed To The Image of His SON (Romans 8:29),​

Correct?

Amen.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I know it from the creation account in Genesis. The outer man was created flesh and bones, with the breath of life (spirit) from God breathed into them and man became a "living soul". Since God created humans with flesh and bones and gave them a spirit (breath of life), why would I imagine God resurrecting our body that died anything other than what we're told, which is, that we will be physically changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible? Since immortality & incorruption was what man lost through the curse of death that came upon all of creation, that is what shall be restored. It makes no sense to me that man's natural body would be resurrected as an entirely different species. I don't know what you believe a spiritual physical body would be? Man is physical body with a spirit and together he/she is a living soul.

Genesis 2:21-22 (KJV) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
A spiritual body doesn't have to be completely non-physical. A spirit is non-physical, but a spiritual body is something different than a spirit.

Paul says only that our natural, physical bodies that return to the earth shall be raised and changed immortal & incorruptible.
Right. He said it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44). For whatever reason, you deny that the body that the dead in Christ will have after being raised when Christ returns will be a spiritual body even though Paul said the natural body, which is not raised until Christ returns, will be raised a spiritual body.

These bodies shall be raised IN power NOT WITH power, and IN GLORY, not with glory. That is once more in power, glory and honor that is to God alone!
Good grief. I was not intending to give power, glory and honor to anyone but God. How can you not know me better than this? If the bodies we have are glorious and powerful that doesn't mean we're equal to God. Angels are very powerful. Does that mean they deserve glory and honor? No. Only God does. I would never say otherwise. By saying our bodies with be glorious and powerful just means we'll have capabilities far beyond what we have now. Is there something wrong with that? I'm not trying to make this about us, I'm simply contrasting the bodies we have now with the bodies we'll have after we're changed.

Paul NEVER says our changed immortal & incorruptible bodies shall possess some supernatural powers and honor you appear to believe we shall be. I've also said this several times, but you don't seem to understand.
Why do you think this? In 1 John 3:2 it says "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is". Do you think Jesus's body does not possess supernatural powers? I believe it does. It says we will be like Him at that point. The angels are very powerful. What is wrong with the idea of us being powerful at that point? It doesn't mean we will boast about it or anything, which seems to be your concern. The angels don't boast about their power despite being very powerful.

Since Christ tells us those who live and believe in Him NEVER die, there has to be life through our spirit after physical death.
Yes, of course! Did you think I thought otherwise? But, that is our spirit, not our body. Why do you think the spirit can't have life apart from a body?

That's why Paul says we are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. Perhaps it's the word 'body' that's causing you not to understand.
I believe it's you who doesn't understand. You believe in a resurrection of the dead upon death when scripture never teaches such a thing. It only teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurrected from the dead when Christ returns at the last trumpet.

You seem to wonder how the saints can be a spiritual body after physical death. All believers corporately/collectively are a living body in Christ. While physically alive we are a natural (human/of the earth) body, and after physical death we shall be a spiritual body collectively/corporately in heaven a living (spirit) soul.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Paul was not speaking corporately here. He was talking about each individual body. Your body is a natural body. My body is a natural body. Each individual body will be raised a spiritual body. You are taking Paul completely out of context.

Paul certainly believes the words of Christ.

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Are you saying you think I don't believe the words of Christ?

In life we are in Christ a natural body, so too at death we shall be in Christ a spiritual body.
No, at death our souls and spirits will separate from our dead bodies and go to be with Christ in heaven. Think about it. Did John say he saw spiritual bodies in his visions in Revelation 6 and 20? No, he said he saw the souls of the dead in Christ. Why didn't he say he saw their spiritual bodies if they have spiritual bodies in heaven?
 

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Why do you think this? In 1 John 3:2 it says "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is". Do you think Jesus's body does not possess supernatural powers? I believe it does. It says we will be like Him at that point. The angels are very powerful. What is wrong with the idea of us being powerful at that point?
Amen! And The Powerful Christ also Revealed to Paul:

1Co_6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?..."​
Amen.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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because:

Christ's 'Resurrected Body' on earth:
Luk_24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me,​
and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."​

And, The 'Same Body' that Ascended Into Heaven:
Eph_5:30 "For we are members of His Body, of His Flesh, And of His Bones."​

And, all 'members Of His Body' will be:

"For whom He Did Foreknow, He also Did Predestinate​
To Be Conformed To The Image of His SON (Romans 8:29),​

Correct?

Amen.
Yes, I understand that He was able to eat and be touched at that point. That's obvious. But, at the same time, He was able to just suddenly appear before them even though the doors were locked. So, He obviously didn't have the same kind of body that we have now, which is really my point. I never said that the body He has or the body we will have in the future can't take physical form. But, it clearly will not be subject to the laws of gravity and other laws of nature that our bodies are subject to now.
 
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