Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[rwb]

Jerusalem was not physically dead after the cross.
The temple was not physically dead after the cross.
The OT Jewish economy was not physically dead after the cross.
But God would not permit their physical continuation.
He brought all to a divinely ordained "telos" physical end in 70AD.

I agree there was a physical end in AD 70. But the Old Covenant was done away through the sacrificial death of Christ. Through His death the New Covenant came, vanquishing the Old and ushering in the New.

Hebrews 9:15-17 (KJV) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[covenantee]

I agree there was a physical end in AD 70. But the Old Covenant was done away through the sacrificial death of Christ. Through His death the New Covenant came, vanquishing the Old and ushering in the New.

Hebrews 9:15-17 (KJV) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

I completely agree.

 

[WPM]

Jerusalem was not physically dead after the cross.
The temple was not physically dead after the cross.
The OT Jewish economy was not physically dead after the cross.
But God would not permit their physical continuation.
He brought all to a divinely ordained "telos" physical end in 70AD.

Totally disagree. God had abandoned that abolished system. What was left was a religious sham. Take Christ out of the old covenant system and you have nothing. The new rendered the old obsolete.

The end of the age is always associated with the future return of Christ. I have already demonstrated that biblically.

There is no such thing as the end of "the OT Jewish economy." That is not biblical phraseology or a biblicalperiod. The burden of proof is with you to show that, but you cannot. It is simply not there.

Jerusalem as a physical city still continues but has lost God's favor.

 

[covenantee]

Totally disagree. God had abandoned that abolished system. What was left was a religious sham. Take Christ out of the old covenant system and you have nothing. The new rendered the old obsolete.

The end of the age is always associated with the future return of Christ. I have already demonstrated that biblically.

There is no such thing as the end of "the OT Jewish economy." That is not biblical phraseology or a biblicalperiod. The burden of proof is with you to show that, but you cannot. It is simply not there.

Jerusalem as a physical city still continues but has lost God's favor.

God spiritually destroyed OT Israel at Calvary.

God physically destroyed OT Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

What's so hard to understand?

 

[ScottA]

Yet the implication is that sin will still continue in eternity, while the flesh continues. Birth will continue to happen, no?

The man of sin is humanity, no?


"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

2 Thessalonians 2:3-7

If you say this future human will have to come and die, that is the implication I was talking about. All humans come and die, the process stops with death. But this process cannot stop with the death of a single human, because the implication would be that Jesus is that man of sin. Jesus is the only being who stopped the process of sin and death on the Cross.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Seven kingdoms are mentioned. But Satan is the 8th kingdom. Only 7 heads but 8 kingdoms. One of these kingdoms is not part of the beast, not even of human origin.

Most miss that this 7th kingdom is the kingdom of Jesus mentioned in Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

That is the 7th kingdom you used in the quote: "And when he comes, he must continue a short time." You combined 2 Thessalonians 2 with Revelation 17, and came up with the wrong scenario of a future man of sin who would end sin, by dying.

My point has been that when Jesus comes as King to sit on the throne in Jerusalem, that is the end of sin. We both used the same verses, but came up with a totally different scenario.

Paul is referring to Satan in those verses as the man of sin. John also describes Satan as "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:"

Satan was from the deception of Eve, a being with great influence on human government, but never was a king nor kingdom. Amil attempt to say Satan had his authority stripped and was bound since the Cross, but that is not the point of this description. Paul is saying the same thing, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." It is the Holy Spirit who keeps Satan in check, not that Satan is bound in the pit.

At the future second coming of Jesus as King, which you seem to substitute for the coming of Satan instead, is when sin will be declared over, and death defeated.

Satan has a reason to remain hidden, because revealing himself would substantiate the work of the Holy Spirit, not deceive people. Once the Holy Spirit is removed along with the church at the Second Coming, only Jesus, the 144k, and all the angels will be on the earth. That is when Satan will be revealed as the man of sin, the son of perdition, because he will deceive in direct opposition to Jesus as King. At the 5th Trumpet even allowed to loose all his rebel angels as an army of woe and tribulation.

Satan is not a dragon. The dragon in all 3 chapters, 12, 13, and 17 is the symbolic human government in opposition to Israel beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon as the first head. But Satan is one of the heads, thus showing his influence in human affairs.

Since the Reformation and the destruction of the 5th kingdom the ten toes of clay and iron, Satan went into hidden mode and the 6th kingdom was always mortally wounded. Also part of was, is not, and shall ascend. The symbolism is not the description of the literal, just the historical past. The 6th Kingdom will be in opposition during Jacob's trouble, but will not be in total control. The 7th kingdom announced at the 7th Trumpet of Jesus as King will either last for 3.5 days, or all of eternity.

People ask why is Jesus announced King and then gives up the control of earth to Satan. They then pretzel twist Revelation to fit their human sensibilities. The reason is Daniel 9:27 and the Confirmation of the Atonement Covenant with the many. Satan is allowed 42 months as the 8th kingdom, because some humans will still be redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, during those 42 months.

Also John says the 7th kingdom must continue a short time, your reason quoted. 3.5 days is probably the shortest world kingdom in history. You also have to remember that Jesus was declared King on Palm Sunday, but was crucified as Messiah within days. At the 7th Trumpet, Jesus will be declared as the 7th kingdom, but by the end of the week, Satan may have been given 42 months. It has not happened yet. Now some argue, that Jesus could have never been crucified and simply made king 1993 years ago, but that did not happen. Most assume Satan will have 42 months, and even claim they will be on earth enduring those 42 months. Yet they totally deny that Jesus was already on earth and His kingdom established before Satan is given those 42 months.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

John explains it and you have to pay attention to the math. 7 heads but 8 kingdoms. One kingdom is not part of this dragon.

The other that is not yet come is still the same lingo as the Prince to come in Daniel 9. Jesus is the 7th kingdom not part of the dragon who is pronounced king at the 7th Trumpet. John wrote that Satan is one of the 7 heads, and the 8th kingdom. And the son of perdition is the one going into perdition can only be Satan.

You have covered a lot of territory. I will be more concise.

I am not sure if you are saying "the implication is that sin will still continue in eternity" is my implication or that of scripture. But, no, I did not mean to imply such a thing. On the contrary, all the elements of creation (that of this world, the universe, and all flesh) are to be dissolved by "fervent heat and fire." So, no, the flesh (the man of sin) does not continue in eternity, but rather, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which born of the spirit is spirit", and the flesh being made up of the same elements as this world is to be completely dissolved.

It is that same "fervent heat and fire" that is the demise of Satan and all that is evil, leaving only the spirit and the kingdom of heaven, including the new [spiritual] heavens and new earth which are laid up in heaven prepared for those who love the Lord God.

As for the unfolding of the prophecies of these times-- these times are only a part. Meaning, yes, one can for their own relative understanding define the events of their own generation as being the end--because every generation is the end for that generation, but such events are only the smaller enactments of what is ultimately greater. For example, history records the generation of Christ as evil and as the apex of all things regarding the salvation of all who are drawn by God from the beginning of this world until the end, all in the short span of one generation; wherein it was only eluded to that the things of God are not the things of this world--specifically salvation, and in fact Jesus in the fulness of all truth actually "was slain before the foundation of the world"...which is the greater overall context which we ought to be looking at instead.

Thus, we can "observe days and months and seasons and years" as the Galatians did, or we can consider them the rule of this world and the exception of heaven, or we can consider all things according to the rule of heaven with that of the world being the exception, which kingdom is without "shadow of turning", meaning, without events according to time. I recommend, that the signs of the time be noted by those who have yet to see things unfold in any other way, but not as if they are the end all, that they are not. In other words, the things that have been prophesied encompass the whole of history, but are also personal regarding every generation-- "then comes the end."

Did I miss anything?

 

[rwb]

God spiritually destroyed OT Israel at Calvary.

God physically destroyed OT Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

What's so hard to understand?

I agree, and wonder too why that's so hard to understand?

 

[covenantee]

Totally disagree. God had abandoned that abolished system. What was left was a religious sham. Take Christ out of the old covenant system and you have nothing. The new rendered the old obsolete.

The end of the age is always associated with the future return of Christ. I have already demonstrated that biblically.

There is no such thing as the end of "the OT Jewish economy." That is not biblical phraseology or a biblicalperiod. The burden of proof is with you to show that, but you cannot. It is simply not there.

Jerusalem as a physical city still continues but has lost God's favor.

The end of the age is "sunteleia", not "telos", in Matthew 24. That is patently obvious.

There are no such things as "system" or "sham". Those are not Biblical words. "The burden of proof is with you to show that, but you cannot. It is simply not there."

Jerusalem today is not Jerusalem before 70AD. That Jerusalem was brought by God to an utter horrific "telos" end.


Are you the same WPM who has blessed me and many others of us in the past? Because you certainly don't look like it now. Your arguments are irrational and incoherent. Maybe you've been hacked or otherwise co-opted.

 

[WPM]

The end of the age is "sunteleia", not "telos", in Matthew 24. That is patently obvious.

There are no such things as "system" or "sham". Those are not Biblical words. "The burden of proof is with you to show that, but you cannot. It is simply not there."

Jerusalem today is not Jerusalem before 70AD. That Jerusalem was brought by God to an utter horrific "telos" end.


Are you the same WPM who has blessed me and many others of us in the past? Because you certainly don't look like it now. Your arguments are irrational and incoherent. Maybe you've been hacked or otherwise co-opted.

Bro, please settle down. This has been my consistent position for years. I have showed you compelling Scripture that supports my position regarding the end being connected to the second coming. You are resorting to Full Preterist arguments.

 

[WPM]

God spiritually destroyed OT Israel at Calvary.

God physically destroyed OT Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

What's so hard to understand?

I am not disputing that.

 

[covenantee]

Bro, please settle down. This has been my consistent position for years. I have showed you compelling Scripture that supports my position regarding the end being connected to the second coming. You are resorting to Full Preterist arguments.

Did Jesus prophesying of 70AD and associated phenomena make Him a full preterist?

(Re)read post 115.

Jesus does not agree with your "compelling Scripture".

 

[WPM]

Did Jesus prophesying of 70AD and associated phenomena make Him a full preterist?

(Re)read post 115.

Jesus does not agree with your "compelling Scripture".

I think you are well aware of my general position on Matthew 24. Jesus is responding to 2 questions (relating to AD70 and the second coming at the end). My objection to your position is not you relating some to AD70, it is you ignoring the climactic references to His return. But this is a challenging passage for all of us

We are not always going to agree. We agree on so much. I am sorry if I offended you by what I said. You are solid In your overwhelming theology and I have no desire to offend or fall out over this.

 

[ScottA]

God spiritually destroyed OT Israel at Calvary.

God physically destroyed OT Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

What's so hard to understand?

True, yet just as with the death and life of Christ, although Israel was destroyed at Calvary, they the chosen were also saved. These are the dead in Christ.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus is responding to 2 questions (relating to AD70 and the second coming at the end).

True.

My objection to your position is not you relating some to AD70, it is you ignoring the climactic references to His return.

The last at least 15 verses in the chapter are devoted to Jesus answering the question about the "sunteleia". That's not "ignoring the climactic references to His return."

But this is a challenging passage for all of us

True. But the challenge does not begin until verse 29. Everything prior to that is confirmable by Scripture, history, context, chronology, semantics, et al; as relating to 70AD.

I am sorry if I offended you by what I said.

Appreciated and accepted. Wasn't offended. Just bewildered.

You are solid In your overwhelming theology and I have no desire to offend or fall out over this.

There is far more that unites us than divides us.

 

[covenantee]

True, yet just as with the death and life of Christ, although Israel was destroyed at Calvary, they the chosen were also saved. These are the dead in Christ.

Yes, the chosen, who were those faithful and obedient to Christ within Israel, were saved.

 

[WPM]

True.

The last at least 15 verses in the chapter are devoted to Jesus answering the question about the "sunteleia". That's not "ignoring the climactic references to His return."

True. But the challenge does not begin until verse 29. Everything prior to that is confirmable by Scripture, history, context, chronology, semantics, et al; as relating to 70AD.

Appreciated and accepted. Wasn't offended. Just bewildered.

There is far more that unites us than divides us.

Appreciate your knowledge and passion for truth. Love you bro!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jerusalem was not physically dead after the cross.
The temple was not physically dead after the cross.
The OT Jewish economy was not physically dead after the cross.
But God would not permit their physical continuation.
He brought all to a divinely ordained "telos" physical end in 70AD.

Keep in mind that all of us who are discussing this in this thread so far (you, me, WPM, rwb) believe that the Olivet Discourse is both about what happened in 70 AD and about the future coming of Christ at the end of the age. So, none of us are denying that physical Jerusalem and the physical temple were not yet physically destroyed after the cross and we all believe they were physically destroyed in 70 AD. But, we disagree on what Matthew 24:4-14 refers to in particular.

Within that passage Jesus talked about things like wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences and earthquakes happening in various places as being evidence that "the end" (telos) was approaching and getting closer, but not yet. Why would global things like those be used as evidence for the approaching local event in Jerusalem? I don't believe that makes sense.

We know His coming at the end of the age will be a global event. It makes far more sense to me that He would refer to global things as evidence that a global event is getting closer and not as evidence that a local event was getting closer.

 

[WPM]

Keep in mind that all of us who are discussing this in this thread so far (you, me, WPM, rwb) believe that the Olivet Discourse is both about what happened in 70 AD and about the future coming of Christ at the end of the age. So, none of us are denying that physical Jerusalem and the physical temple were not yet physically destroyed after the cross and we all believe they were physically destroyed in 70 AD. But, we disagree on what Matthew 24:4-14 refers to in particular.

Within that passage Jesus talked about things like wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences and earthquakes happening in various places as being evidence that "the end" (telos) was approaching and getting closer, but not yet. Why would global things like those be used as evidence for the approaching local event in Jerusalem? I don't believe that makes sense.

We know His coming at the end of the age will be a global event. It makes far more sense to me that He would refer to global things as evidence that a global event is getting closer and not as evidence that a local event was getting closer.

Very well put!

 

[covenantee]

Keep in mind that all of us who are discussing this in this thread so far (you, me, WPM, rwb) believe that the Olivet Discourse is both about what happened in 70 AD and about the future coming of Christ at the end of the age. So, none of us are denying that physical Jerusalem and the physical temple were not yet physically destroyed after the cross and we all believe they were physically destroyed in 70 AD. But, we disagree on what Matthew 24:4-14 refers to in particular.

Within that passage Jesus talked about things like wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences and earthquakes happening in various places as being evidence that "the end" (telos) was approaching and getting closer, but not yet. Why would global things like those be used as evidence for the approaching local event in Jerusalem? I don't believe that makes sense.

We know His coming at the end of the age will be a global event. It makes far more sense to me that He would refer to global things as evidence that a global event is getting closer and not as evidence that a local event was getting closer.

If the events and phenomena that Jesus predicted occurred exactly at the time and in the manner that He predicted, there is nothing that disqualifies them as evidence, irrespective of where they occurred.

Note also that Jesus' predictions of deceivers, and of the persecution of His disciples, included local events recorded extensively in the book of Acts.

And, the destruction of Jerusalem was an event of both local and global significance.

 

[covenantee]

Keep in mind that all of us who are discussing this in this thread so far (you, me, WPM, rwb) believe that the Olivet Discourse is both about what happened in 70 AD and about the future coming of Christ at the end of the age. So, none of us are denying that physical Jerusalem and the physical temple were not yet physically destroyed after the cross and we all believe they were physically destroyed in 70 AD. But, we disagree on what Matthew 24:4-14 refers to in particular.

Within that passage Jesus talked about things like wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences and earthquakes happening in various places as being evidence that "the end" (telos) was approaching and getting closer, but not yet. Why would global things like those be used as evidence for the approaching local event in Jerusalem? I don't believe that makes sense.

We know His coming at the end of the age will be a global event. It makes far more sense to me that He would refer to global things as evidence that a global event is getting closer and not as evidence that a local event was getting closer.

More evidence.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold.

Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow

 

[ScottA]

Keep in mind that all of us who are discussing this in this thread so far (you, me, WPM, rwb) believe that the Olivet Discourse is both about what happened in 70 AD and about the future coming of Christ at the end of the age. So, none of us are denying that physical Jerusalem and the physical temple were not yet physically destroyed after the cross and we all believe they were physically destroyed in 70 AD. But, we disagree on what Matthew 24:4-14 refers to in particular.

Within that passage Jesus talked about things like wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences and earthquakes happening in various places as being evidence that "the end" (telos) was approaching and getting closer, but not yet. Why would global things like those be used as evidence for the approaching local event in Jerusalem? I don't believe that makes sense.

We know His coming at the end of the age will be a global event. It makes far more sense to me that He would refer to global things as evidence that a global event is getting closer and not as evidence that a local event was getting closer.

If I may...

Just as the crucifixion event was local and yet extends to include the greater context of all who are born from the beginning of the world unto the end, so too are many biblical enactments, each having a smaller local context and also a larger all inclusive context.

So then, yes Jesus spoke of the end of days, but also the end of the days of the twelve and of that generation, even specifically. Which begs the question many do not ask nor have the answer to, nor even believe that this method by God is perhaps ever correct...and yet it is established as true and correct by the precedence of the cross.