Preterism misrepresents Scripture
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What? No, I am not. Not even close. Are you sure you're reading my posts carefully? I have repeatedly said that "the end" refers to the end of the age which I believe will occur when Christ returns in the future.
I didn't say that Jerusalem was the old covenant. Are you sure you're not confusing my beliefs with what rwb was saying?
I know that's what you believe. Can you address what I said about the similarities between Matthew 24:10-13 and 2 Thess 2:1-3? Jesus spoke of a future time when many would turn away from the faith and wickedness would increase before "the end", right? And Paul spoke about a mass falling away from the faith and an increase in wickedness just before the second coming of Christ in 2 Thess 2:1-3, right? So, using scripture to interpret scripture, doesn't that mean "the end" coincides with the second coming of Christ?
If you check the descriptions and Scripture references for "telos" and "sunteleia", you will see significant differences.
"Sunteleia" virtually always refers to the Second Coming.
"Telos" does not.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What Scripture and you are saying to who? To rwb? I was addressing his beliefs in that post.
Apologies. I'm confusing you with WPM.
With regard to your argument, the "end" to which Jesus was referring was of relevance to His disciples ("you" and "ye" in verses 4 and 6).
Obviously His return was not of relevance to His disciples.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you saying you think "telos" never refers to the second coming? If so, I disagree.
1 Corinthians 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Here, it's related to the day "our Lord Jesus Christ" will "be revealed", which obviously is a reference to the second coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
This passage talks about "the end" (telos) in relation to His second coming.
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray.
The end of all things will occur at Christ's second coming, as Peter wrote in his 2nd letter (2 Peter 3:10-12).
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Actually, it seems like you are confusing me with rwb since he seemed to argue that "the end" Jesus referenced came at the cross. WPM is arguing that the old covenant ended at the cross, which we all agree with, but he is not arguing that "the end" Jesus referred to was what happened at the cross.
I don't think you have much of a point here unless you think the following only was relevant to His disciples as well?
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Obviously, Jesus was saying here that the timing of His coming wasn't known. So, for all He or anyone (besides the Father - see Matt 24:36) knew, it could happen in the lifetimes of His discples, but not necessarily. So, that's why He said "you" and "ye". That does not mean what He said would necessarily occur in their lifetimes. It only means that it could happen in their lifetimes. That goes for what He said in verses 4 and 6 as well.
If "end" refers to the end of the age when Christ returns, then the applicable word would be "sunteleia" as in verse 3.
Not "telos".
But it is "telos".
So it is not referring to Christ's return.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is not necessarily the case. Both words mean "the end", so there is no rule that when referring to the end of the age Jesus could only use one word to refer to it.
Never said such.
But in a chapter where both "sunteleia" and "telos" appear, then the distinction between the two is significant.
If Jesus had been referring to His return, then "sunteleia" would have been the obvious word to use.
But He used "telos" instead.
To signify a different "end".
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this then. I don't see that He had to only use one certain word that means "the end" to refer to the end of the age.
This is true! I agree that Christ is saying the Old Covenant ends, so the New Covenant through Christ would be established. I think you and I are in agreement on that much. But I don't believe the end for Old Covenant Israel was the literal destruction in AD 70. I believe it ended with the crucifixion of Christ. When His body, which was the True Temple became a sacrifice for sin. But this truth was not clearly understood and would not be made known as long as the city and temple continued to stand. That is the time of reformation that would come through Christ. Even the disciples would not fully understand the end of the Old and beginning of the New, that would also have its end, until Pentecost.
Hebrews 9:8-10 (KJV) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
On the Day of Pentecost, Peter, being filled with the Holy Spirit preached the time for the prophet Joel's prophecy had begun to be fulfilled. Peter preached of the New Covenant that had come through the sacrifice of Christ. Now "all" people. All without distinction, not all without exception, but all people of faith would be saved. The Old Covenant was gone and the New had come because the long-awaited Messiah had come.
Acts 2:16-17 (KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I believe the way that makes sense (at least to me) in understanding the prophetic words Christ spoke, is to understand He spoke of two separate endings, not only the end that shall come when the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no longer.
Christ began His discourse by basically telling His disciples not to think too highly of the city and temple that was long admired. For neither the city nor the buildings would remain. All would be utterly destroyed forever. The disciples would understand the spiritual significance of Christ's statement through the Holy Spirit, they would then remember the words Christ spoke of the Temple He was pointing them to that would become the True Holy Place, that is His body, broken for them and for us (all who are of faith).
This is how we too can know that the Old Covenant ended through the shed blood of Christ. And the New Covenant age, that also has an end, had come. The time of the Lord began, and the time for obedience to the Law and Prophets is fulfilled in Him by grace through faith as ALL whoever shall hear the Gospel and believe for everlasting life.
Matthew 24:2 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
John 2:19-22 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
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I agree! The end is reference to whatever is in view! But the end of this world with the return of Christ is the end of ALL things that belong to this earth. Christ references both the end of the Old Covenant and the end when He shall come again.
The Greek word 'telos' is referring to the end of their life. IOW if they remain faithful unto death (the end) they will be blameless on the day of our Lord.
The end here comes for saints who physically die since Christ has come. After those who belong to Him have died and come to Him "the end" for them has physically come. Christ is the firstfruits of those who have DIED. By Him comes the resurrection of the dead. All in Christ shall be made (spiritually) alive. Christ the firstfruits then afterward they that belong to Him after they die in or because He has come. Not all who are of Christ will physically die, but will also be with Christ at His coming again, then the end will come, but not before Christ delivers up the Kingdom of God to the Father after putting down all rule, power and authority. For He must reign in heaven untill all enemies are put under His feet.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1 Corinthians 15:38 (KJV) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1 Corinthians 15:40 (KJV) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The end comes physically for the one who dies in Christ, but that is not "the end" that shall come when the seventh angel begins to sound. The final end will not come before the spiritual/celestial/heavenly Kingdom of God is complete and every believer ordained to come to a physical end in this life has been raised a spiritual/celestial/heavenly body in the Kingdom of God in heaven.
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The end of all things is approaching/drawing near. It has been approaching since the advent of Christ. Peter calls this "the day of the Lord", not the end. I'm not disputing you, I agree, all things of this earth will come to an end when Christ returns, but you are comparing it with "the end" and Peter writes it is "the day of the Lord" and "coming of the day of God", not "the end" in 2Pe 3:10-12.
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That was the awful consequences of their rejection of Christ. But the 40 years were not a time of legitimate God-ordained religious worship but wilful religious rebellion that resulted in wholesale judgment. The 40 years were significant as it was a grace probation period for them to turn. But the old covenant was completely gone during this time.
This passage is talking about two things that have an end. One end comes for the faithful saints when we physically die and as spiritual body ascend to the Kingdom of God in heaven. When all who shall be saved are eternally, spiritually secure in Christ then 1Cor 15:51-58 shall come to pass. Paul is telling us that bodily death will not be the end for those who die in Christ. They will simply leave this earth to enter into the Kingdom of God in heaven a spiritual body. That's the end of physical life on this earth for faithful saints. Then when the last trump sounds our body too shall be raised to physical life to be re-united with our eternal spirit that returns with Christ. Then comes the final end when all that is written concerning this earth shall come to pass.
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