Preterism misrepresents Scripture

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covenantee

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That was the awful consequences of their rejection of Christ. But the 40 years were not a time of legitimate God-ordained religious worship but wilful religious rebellion that resulted in wholesale judgment. The 40 years were significant as it was a grace probation period for them to turn. But the old covenant was completely gone during this time.
It was that and more. It was God's determination to irrefutably demonstrate the death of the old covenant by utterly destroying, i.e. bringing to a "telos" end, every temporal evidence and vestige of that covenant.

This He did, via the armies under the direction of His Son, in 70AD.
 
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Timtofly

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My saying so is not for discussion and is not open for debate, but is for reproof according to Proverbs 1, only to be received or rejected.
So you see sin as continuing on for all eternity. I reject that implication.

The future return of Jesus is for the sole purpose of completing Daniel 9:24. Thus the future, full stop of Adam's punishment, and sin, along with the death associated with sin.
 

ScottA

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So you see sin as continuing on for all eternity. I reject that implication.

No, sorry, that is not what I said or meant at all.

Sin rather continues only until the man of sin (of flesh) expires. As it is written, "And when he comes, he must continue a short time."
 

Timtofly

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Completed at Calvary for me.

Too bad about you.
I am glad that you enjoy sinless perfection in a permanent incorruptible physical body.

The rest of us are humble enough to admit we are still sinners in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

If you think no one sins nor dies, then you are totally in your own reality. The rest of the world is dying and going directly to sheol, around your private reality you enjoy.
 

ScottA

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The future return of Jesus is for the sole purpose of completing Daniel 9:24. Thus the future, full stop of Adam's punishment, and sin, along with the death associated with sin.

Yes, this is true, except for the common understanding of the timing being only "future."

Contrary to popular belief, Jesus is now in the midst and nearing the end of His return which began to "come quickly" after He ascended to the Father, just as He said. The timing of which Paul eluded to, saying, "but each one in his own order". "One" by definition, meaning "individual."
 

covenantee

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I am glad that you enjoy sinless perfection in a permanent incorruptible physical body.

The rest of us are humble enough to admit we are still sinners in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

If you think no one sins nor dies, then you are totally in your own reality. The rest of the world is dying and going directly to sheol, around your private reality you enjoy.
Continue wallowing in unrighteousness, and leave the righteousness of Calvary for those of us who experience it.

Whom to believe about Daniel 9:24?

1. You
2. Every pre-19th century recognized Bible expositor

Do you need a hint?
 

rwb

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It was that and more. It was God's determination to irrefutably demonstrate the death of the old covenant by utterly destroying, i.e. bringing to a "telos" end, every temporal evidence and vestige of that covenant.

This He did, via the armies under the direction of His Son, in 70AD.

I believe the time for total, and irrefutable destruction was delayed until the appointed time AD 70 because that's when the full measure of their damnation would be complete.

Genesis 15:16 (KJV) But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.


Biblical Illustrator
Genesis 15:16

Ver. 16. For the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full. —

Why the wicked are spared for a season: —

I. This passage, taken in connection with its attending circumstances, teaches us the following important truth: GOD WAITS UNTIL SINNERS NAVE FILLED UP A CERTAIN MEASURE OF INIQUITY, BEFORE HE EXECUTES THE SENTENCE BY WHICH THEY ARE DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION; but when this measure is full, execution certainly and immediately follows.
 
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covenantee

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I believe the time for total, and irrefutable destruction was delayed until the appointed time AD 70 because that's when the full measure of their damnation would be complete.

Genesis 15:16 (KJV) But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.


Biblical Illustrator
Genesis 15:16
Ver. 16. For the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full
. —

Why the wicked are spared for a season: —

I. This passage, taken in connection with its attending circumstances, teaches us the following important truth: GOD WAITS UNTIL SINNERS NAVE FILLED UP A CERTAIN MEASURE OF INIQUITY, BEFORE HE EXECUTES THE SENTENCE BY WHICH THEY ARE DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION; but when this measure is full, execution certainly and immediately follows.
Agreed. Interesting Scriptural observation, rwb. Forty years of God's patience and mercy completely squandered.
 
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Zao is life

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When John writes "the time is at hand" how can he be speaking of Christ's second coming, the Preterists insist was AD 70, and Amils insist is about 2000 years away? When we see how "at hand" has been used throughout the New Testament, we find in each usage it means ready, near, or an arm's length away. I may have missed a verse, but I don't believe "at hand" is ever used as something that is many years away.

Revelation 1:3 (KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:10 (KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

When Christ returns the second time, the very day of His coming is said to be quickly, which is without warning or unexpectedly. It is the DAY of His coming again that shall be at the end of the age, but the Kingdom of heaven through His Spirit in us has been at hand and near for whosoever hears the Gospel and by grace through faith believe.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The time that is at hand is time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God by the power of His Gospel and Spirit. When the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete then Christ's return will be ONE day and quickly.
Matt.24:27-31: Return of Christ.

Matt.24:32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near [Greek: eggus, at hand].
33 So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near [eggus], at the doors.

Luke 21
31 So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near [eggus].

Luke 19
11 And as they heard these things, He added and spoke a parable, because He was near [eggus, at hand] Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God was about to appear immediately.
12 Therefore He said, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive a kingdom for himself, and to return ...

We all understand what Jesus meant in the above parable (all except Preterists).

So I believe that it's no accident that when speaking about the events leading up to his return, Jesus says,

Rev.1:3
Blessed is the one who reads and hears the words of this prophecy, and the ones keeping the things written in it, for the time is near [eggus, at hand].

And closes the Revelation with:

Rev.22:10, 12
And he said to me, Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand [eggus, at hand].

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.

It seems that Jesus is basically telling us that this Revelation is about the same things He spoke about leading up to His return in the Olivet Discourse.

Matt.24:32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near [Greek: eggus, at hand].
33 So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near [eggus, at hand], at the doors.

I believe that the seven churches are therefore especially a reflection of the state of the last days churches (not all with the same problems, and only two receive no rebuke, but only commendation).

The 7th of the seven messages is warning the church about being found naked, and the shame of their nakedness:

Rev;16:15
Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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We would expect Him to use the appropriate word.

He did.
I don't understand this argument at all. Why are you thinking that there was only one word that He could use? There are multiple words that have the same meaning. There are multiple words that can be used to refer to "the end". And, I showed you examples where "telos" is used to described His coming at the end of the age, so that shows the word can be used in that context.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The Greek word 'telos' is referring to the end of their life. IOW if they remain faithful unto death (the end) they will be blameless on the day of our Lord.
I believe you are not looking at the context of the verse. Paul associated "the end" in there directly with the day that the Lord Jesus Christ is revealed at His second coming. So, the context has to do with God keeping us firm, not only to the end of our lives (if that comes before Jesus comes), but also to the day Jesus returns.

The end here comes for saints who physically die since Christ has come. After those who belong to Him have died and come to Him "the end" for them has physically come.
You are again taking a verse out of context.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

When does Paul say "the end" comes? At death for each person? No. He indicates that the end will come when Jesus comes again. At that point He will destroy all of the "dominion, authority and power of His enemies. As Amils, we all believe that, right? And He will deliver the kingdom to the Father at that time. You believe that happens at His second coming, right? So, that is when "the end" will come. So, this is a clear example of the word "telos" being used in relation to the second coming of Christ.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I agree! The end is reference to whatever is in view! But the end of this world with the return of Christ is the end of ALL things that belong to this earth. Christ references both the end of the Old Covenant and the end when He shall come again.
Jesus did not refer to the end of the old covenant in the Olivet Discourse. He referred to the end of the temple buildings and things that people identified with the old covenant, but the old covenant itself ended upon His death and He did not refer to His death in the Olivet Discourse. Preterists try to say that Jesus talked about things related to the end of the old covenant age in the Olivet Discourse, but the old covenant did not end in 70 AD, it ended upon the death of Christ and the veil of the temple tearing in two signified that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The end of all things is approaching/drawing near. It has been approaching since the advent of Christ. Peter calls this "the day of the Lord", not the end.
I'm not understanding your point here. Don't you believe that the end of all things will occur on the day of the Lord that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

I'm not disputing you, I agree, all things of this earth will come to an end when Christ returns, but you are comparing it with "the end" and Peter writes it is "the day of the Lord" and "coming of the day of God", not "the end" in 2Pe 3:10-12.
What does it matter what he calls it there? The end of all things, if we understand "all things" to refer to the heavens, the earth and the elements, will occur on the day of the Lord that he referenced in 2 Peter 3:10-12, so I'm just not seeing your point here at all.
 

covenantee

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I don't understand this argument at all. Why are you thinking that there was only one word that He could use? There are multiple words that have the same meaning. There are multiple words that can be used to refer to "the end". And, I showed you examples where "telos" is used to described His coming at the end of the age, so that shows the word can be used in that context.

There are four instances where Jesus uses the word "sunteleia" and it is translated "end of the age". (Matthew 13:39,40,49; Matthew 28:20)

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

Thus in Matthew 24, Jesus' use of the word "telos" does not refer to the end of the age.

It refers to the end of the OT Jewish economy in 70AD.
 
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Reggie Belafonte

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Christ in human form will again be physically seen coming in the clouds in the same manner in which He was seen leaving this earth. That does not take away from Christ coming to man through His Spirit in us. His physical appearance is yet future, but Christ came to us with a Kingdom that is not observable, and is within us. Which is evidence that Christ is near through His Spirit to whosoever calls upon His name.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 18:36 (KJV)
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It's not only Preterists who fail to realize the nearness of Christ coming to be in man of faith is through His Spirit. And the Spirit comes quickly, or suddenly without observation and is very near to whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord.
Why would Christ come down in human form ?
Why would Christ need to come down in human form ?
Would one who is truly born again need to see him in human form ?
Could the Holy Spirit in one bring about Lordship with his Salvation, or does one need more ? As Luke 17:20-21 and as for the kingdom of God is within you !
And as John 18:36 says ! So when one is truly born again you are not of this world, are you !

If one thinks that the second coming will Save one who is already saved, then the claim of one looking forward to the second coming is not Saved is such a one in fact. So it's only they of little faith that look forward to the second coming in fact.

I believe in the second coming, but the Hellfire comes first ! and why does the Hellfire come ? well it's because you all will reap what you have sown in fact ! For You have turned your backs on Christ Jesus for this world that is Full of Deceptions and Delusions in fact !
So fools look forward to the Hellfire that they created because they are of little faith, just like the Jew Religious ?
Religion never saved any ones Soul in fact ! Only Christ Jesus can Save ones Soul in fact, Religion is a poor attempt at serving God or gods in fact, but for one where it's all at namely our Lord and Saviour ! Christ Jesus !
So why do people not serve Christ Jesus by abiding in him ? if they can't it's because they are of little faith only and have not the strength because they never received that strength in Christ Jesus ! because they are not Truly born again. They may have the spirit somewhat but not full of the Holy Spirit !
 

rwb

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Why would Christ come down in human form ?
Why would Christ need to come down in human form ?
Would one who is truly born again need to see him in human form ?
Could the Holy Spirit in one bring about Lordship with his Salvation, or does one need more ? As Luke 17:20-21 and as for the kingdom of God is within you !
And as John 18:36 says ! So when one is truly born again you are not of this world, are you !

If one thinks that the second coming will Save one who is already saved, then the claim of one looking forward to the second coming is not Saved is such a one in fact. So it's only they of little faith that look forward to the second coming in fact.

I believe in the second coming, but the Hellfire comes first ! and why does the Hellfire come ? well it's because you all will reap what you have sown in fact ! For You have turned your backs on Christ Jesus for this world that is Full of Deceptions and Delusions in fact !
So fools look forward to the Hellfire that they created because they are of little faith, just like the Jew Religious ?
Religion never saved any ones Soul in fact ! Only Christ Jesus can Save ones Soul in fact, Religion is a poor attempt at serving God or gods in fact, but for one where it's all at namely our Lord and Saviour ! Christ Jesus !
So why do people not serve Christ Jesus by abiding in him ? if they can't it's because they are of little faith only and have not the strength because they never received that strength in Christ Jesus ! because they are not Truly born again. They may have the spirit somewhat but not full of the Holy Spirit !

If you read more carefully what I've written, you will see that I did not say Christ would come down in human form.

I said: "Christ in human form will again be physically seen coming in the clouds in the same manner in which He was seen leaving this earth." It is written that Christ will be physically seen coming in the clouds, because that is the way (physical form) He was seen leaving. Christ NEVER comes down again to this earth! He calls His own to meet Him in the air. The only earth Christ will inhabit after this earth has passed away is the new earth.

If every eye did not see Christ in human form as He was seen departing, how would we know when He has come again in the clouds?

As you have said, the Kingdom of God now in this age is within you a spiritual Kingdom man can only know and enter through the Holy Spirit.
 
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WPM

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It was that and more. It was God's determination to irrefutably demonstrate the death of the old covenant by utterly destroying, i.e. bringing to a "telos" end, every temporal evidence and vestige of that covenant.

This He did, via the armies under the direction of His Son, in 70AD.

No. It ended at the cross. It got a decent burial in AD 70. It was already dead.
 

Timtofly

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No, sorry, that is not what I said or meant at all.

Sin rather continues only until the man of sin (of flesh) expires. As it is written, "And when he comes, he must continue a short time."
Yet the implication is that sin will still continue in eternity, while the flesh continues. Birth will continue to happen, no?

The man of sin is humanity, no?


"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

2 Thessalonians 2:3-7

If you say this future human will have to come and die, that is the implication I was talking about. All humans come and die, the process stops with death. But this process cannot stop with the death of a single human, because the implication would be that Jesus is that man of sin. Jesus is the only being who stopped the process of sin and death on the Cross.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Seven kingdoms are mentioned. But Satan is the 8th kingdom. Only 7 heads but 8 kingdoms. One of these kingdoms is not part of the beast, not even of human origin.

Most miss that this 7th kingdom is the kingdom of Jesus mentioned in Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

That is the 7th kingdom you used in the quote: "And when he comes, he must continue a short time." You combined 2 Thessalonians 2 with Revelation 17, and came up with the wrong scenario of a future man of sin who would end sin, by dying.

My point has been that when Jesus comes as King to sit on the throne in Jerusalem, that is the end of sin. We both used the same verses, but came up with a totally different scenario.

Paul is referring to Satan in those verses as the man of sin. John also describes Satan as "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:"

Satan was from the deception of Eve, a being with great influence on human government, but never was a king nor kingdom. Amil attempt to say Satan had his authority stripped and was bound since the Cross, but that is not the point of this description. Paul is saying the same thing, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." It is the Holy Spirit who keeps Satan in check, not that Satan is bound in the pit.

At the future second coming of Jesus as King, which you seem to substitute for the coming of Satan instead, is when sin will be declared over, and death defeated.

Satan has a reason to remain hidden, because revealing himself would substantiate the work of the Holy Spirit, not deceive people. Once the Holy Spirit is removed along with the church at the Second Coming, only Jesus, the 144k, and all the angels will be on the earth. That is when Satan will be revealed as the man of sin, the son of perdition, because he will deceive in direct opposition to Jesus as King. At the 5th Trumpet even allowed to loose all his rebel angels as an army of woe and tribulation.

Satan is not a dragon. The dragon in all 3 chapters, 12, 13, and 17 is the symbolic human government in opposition to Israel beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon as the first head. But Satan is one of the heads, thus showing his influence in human affairs.

Since the Reformation and the destruction of the 5th kingdom the ten toes of clay and iron, Satan went into hidden mode and the 6th kingdom was always mortally wounded. Also part of was, is not, and shall ascend. The symbolism is not the description of the literal, just the historical past. The 6th Kingdom will be in opposition during Jacob's trouble, but will not be in total control. The 7th kingdom announced at the 7th Trumpet of Jesus as King will either last for 3.5 days, or all of eternity.

People ask why is Jesus announced King and then gives up the control of earth to Satan. They then pretzel twist Revelation to fit their human sensibilities. The reason is Daniel 9:27 and the Confirmation of the Atonement Covenant with the many. Satan is allowed 42 months as the 8th kingdom, because some humans will still be redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, during those 42 months.

Also John says the 7th kingdom must continue a short time, your reason quoted. 3.5 days is probably the shortest world kingdom in history. You also have to remember that Jesus was declared King on Palm Sunday, but was crucified as Messiah within days. At the 7th Trumpet, Jesus will be declared as the 7th kingdom, but by the end of the week, Satan may have been given 42 months. It has not happened yet. Now some argue, that Jesus could have never been crucified and simply made king 1993 years ago, but that did not happen. Most assume Satan will have 42 months, and even claim they will be on earth enduring those 42 months. Yet they totally deny that Jesus was already on earth and His kingdom established before Satan is given those 42 months.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

John explains it and you have to pay attention to the math. 7 heads but 8 kingdoms. One kingdom is not part of this dragon.

The other that is not yet come is still the same lingo as the Prince to come in Daniel 9. Jesus is the 7th kingdom not part of the dragon who is pronounced king at the 7th Trumpet. John wrote that Satan is one of the 7 heads, and the 8th kingdom. And the son of perdition is the one going into perdition can only be Satan.
 

covenantee

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No. It ended at the cross. It got a decent burial in AD 70. It was already dead.
Jerusalem was not physically dead after the cross.
The temple was not physically dead after the cross.
The OT Jewish economy was not physically dead after the cross.
But God would not permit their physical continuation.
He brought all to a divinely ordained "telos" physical end in 70AD.
 
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