Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[covenantee]

I already did. You are yet to address it. Like Full Preterists, you see AD70 as the end of some imaginary age that does not exist. The old covenant ended at the cross. The end of this age occurs at the second coming. You invent some imaginary age which you conveniently deem "the end of the ... Mosaic age" that cannot be found in God's Book but belongs in the Full Preterist manuals.

Awaiting a disproof of post 115.

The definition of "telos" does not include "age".

The only imagination is yours.

 

[covenantee]

My last posts disprove that.

Awaiting a disproof of post 115.

 

[WPM]

Awaiting a disproof of post 115.

Bro, you avoid this simple point because you have invented an "end" to imaginary period to suit your beliefs. You have no Scripture to support it, thus your continuous avoidance. I will take that as a relucutant admission I am right. When you are promoting that which right (which is often), you have strong supporting Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Thanks for confirming Scripture and history. The Jerusalem Christians tarried, remained, suffered, underwent, and bore trials during the more than 30 years leading up to 70AD; before they fled as Jesus had warned. Their persecutions are extensively described and documented in the book of Acts, fulfilling Matthew 24:9.

You just demolished your own argument. God’s people did not endure until AD70 (your invented end of the Mosaic age). They fled before it. This is another proof that what you are suggesting is nonsensical.

 

[covenantee]

LOL. You just demolished your own argument. God’s people did not endure until AD70 (your invented end of the Mosaic age). They fled before it. This is another proof that what you are suggesting is nonsensical.

Thanks for the guffaws. The "telos" end occurred over four years beginning with Cestius Gallus' advance on Jerusalem, in 66AD, followed by a brief withdrawal during which the Christians escaped.

Your ignorance of history is risible.

 

[covenantee]

Bro, you avoid this simple point because you have invented an "end" to imaginary period to suit your beliefs. You have no Scripture to support it, thus your continuous avoidance. I will take that as a relucutant admission I am right. When you are promoting that which right (which is often), you have strong supporting Scripture.

When did you decide to sell out to Darby/Scofield dispensational futurism?

 

[rwb]

Keep in mind that all of us who are discussing this in this thread so far (you, me, WPM, rwb) believe that the Olivet Discourse is both about what happened in 70 AD and about the future coming of Christ at the end of the age. So, none of us are denying that physical Jerusalem and the physical temple were not yet physically destroyed after the cross and we all believe they were physically destroyed in 70 AD. But, we disagree on what Matthew 24:4-14 refers to in particular.

Within that passage Jesus talked about things like wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences and earthquakes happening in various places as being evidence that "the end" (telos) was approaching and getting closer, but not yet. Why would global things like those be used as evidence for the approaching local event in Jerusalem? I don't believe that makes sense.

We know His coming at the end of the age will be a global event. It makes far more sense to me that He would refer to global things as evidence that a global event is getting closer and not as evidence that a local event was getting closer.

Perhaps the difficulty comes because we try to literalize what might become logical when we understand the warnings of things to come must be spiritually discerned? Because Christ is detailing for His people (the Church) throughout the ages the great spiritual conflicts between good and evil as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being built through the power of His Gospel and Spirit in us. There are some things in the Discourse that certainly can be applied to the first century AD. But most of the things spoken cannot be limited to a single nation or generation of Christians. All that is written is for "whosoever readeth, let him understand"!

In the same manner we discern what John has written in the Revelation certainly applies to the seven churches the epistles were specifically addressed to! But we know what is written to them addresses every church throughout the ages. So too the words Christ spoke from the Mt of Olives. While He is certainly warning His first disciples who are Jews, so too the warnings are for all of His disciples.

The disciples want to know what sign they would have that they might believe the total end or consummation of this world, they were told and believed would never end, woul be? They had to have a sign! We learn from other portions of Scripture the sign they and every disciple throughout the ages would receive is the Holy Spirit in them. Which is Christ in them. They ask Christ what shall be the sign of His presence/parousia/being near that they might believe the consummation of the present age and entire world shall end when He shall physically come again?

 

[rwb]

More evidence.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold.

Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow

Yes, Scripture is abundantly clear that "great tribulation" and persecution will come to the disciples of Christ as we faithfully proclaim His Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit. It began in the first century AD and will not end until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is completed when the last Gentile to be saved enters in.

 

[rwb]

You are not getting my point. I don't deny that those things were happening back then. We all know that. But, was Jesus only making the point that those things would occur before the end or is there more to it than that?

Jesus talked about the things He referenced as happening more frequently as time went on. That's why He talked about the wars, famines, earthquakes, etc. as the beginning of birth pains. Birth pains start slowly and then increase in frequency as time goes on. So, that is the context of what He was talking about.

I'm not saying that these things weren't happening in the first century, I'm saying that these things, in and of themselves, would not be a sign that the end is near (as Jesus indicated), but these things happening more frequently and/or with more intensity would be a sign that the end is near. That would include the increase in wickedness and in the number of those turning away from the faith that Jesus mentioned. And an increase in the amount of persecution happening against the church globally. I say "globally" because the context of what He was talking about was global and not just local. So, to me, He was giving global signs that would be evidence of the nearing of a global event. If He was only referring to the local event in Jerusalem there, then, in my view, He would not have referred to global things as evidence of the approaching of the local event.

The only thing written that I would limit to the consummation when Christ comes again are the signs in the sun, moon and stars, and Christ appearing again physically, the Son of man coming in the clouds, when He sends His angels to gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Then this first earth and everything on it will be consumed by fire.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The rest of the Olivet Discourse speaks of things that come to pass at certain times, people and places, but are not limited to only them. There is nothing written that has not been before or that shall never be again. The only exception is the complete destruction of the Old Covenant ceremonial and sacrificial observances that ended by the Roman Army when the words of Christ was fulfilled. Just as Christ said the Temple and buildings would all be destroyed, and they were in AD 70. This does not take away from the FACT that the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ did away with the Old Covenant and ushered in the New Covenant.

 

[rwb]

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming [Gr. parousia], and of the end [Gr. sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation] of the world (age)?”

But was the sign they wanted of His second coming, or did they need the sign of His presence in them? Without that sign, would Christ's disciples believe the world they were promised would be FOREVER would one day end?

 

[WPM]

But was the sign they wanted of His second coming, or did they need the sign of His presence in them? Without that sign, would Christ's disciples believe the world they were promised would be FOREVER would one day end?

It is clear that it is talking about the sign of His coming.

 

[rwb]

It is clear that it is talking about the sign of His coming.

Is that what they needed to believe He would come again? It's not His coming that they needed a sign for. It's the SIGN they needed to believe Him.

 

[WPM]

Thanks for the guffaws. The "telos" end occurred over four years beginning with Cestius Gallus' advance on Jerusalem, in 66AD, followed by a brief withdrawal during which the Christians escaped.

Your ignorance of history is risible.

You just avoided my points, and please keep the insults to yourself. It does advance your case

I refer you back.

 

[WPM]

Is that what they needed to believe He would come again? It's not His coming that they needed a sign for. It's the SIGN they needed to believe Him.

They did not need that. All they needed was His Word. We are the same. No need to add something to the text that is not there.

 

[rwb]

They did not need that. All they needed was His Word. We are the same. No need to add something to the text that is not there.

That's true while He was still with them. But how would they continue to have faith after Christ departs? Would they not then need power from on high?

 

[WPM]

That's true while He was still with them. But how would they continue to have faith after Christ departs? Would they not then need power from on high?

They had the Holy Spirit. They had the OT Scriptures. They had His promise. That is enough.

 

[WPM]

Thanks for the guffaws. The "telos" end occurred over four years beginning with Cestius Gallus' advance on Jerusalem, in 66AD, followed by a brief withdrawal during which the Christians escaped.

Your ignorance of history is risible.

I removed the LOL as it was not my intent to offend.

 

[rwb]

They had the Holy Spirit. They had the OT Scriptures. They had His promise. That is enough.

At that point in time they had not received the Holy Spirit. But they would need Him. That's why Christ breathed the Spirit unto them, because without the Spirit in them they might not remain faithful unto their end.

John 20:19-23 (KJV) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

 

[WPM]

The only thing written that I would limit to the consummation when Christ comes again are the signs in the sun, moon and stars, and Christ appearing again physically, the Son of man coming in the clouds, when He sends His angels to gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Then this first earth and everything on it will be consumed by fire.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The rest of the Olivet Discourse speaks of things that come to pass at certain times, people and places, but are not limited to only them. There is nothing written that has not been before or that shall never be again. The only exception is the complete destruction of the Old Covenant ceremonial and sacrificial observances that ended by the Roman Army when the words of Christ was fulfilled. Just as Christ said the Temple and buildings would all be destroyed, and they were in AD 70. This does not take away from the FACT that the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ did away with the Old Covenant and ushered in the New Covenant.

So, what is this new period you have created that comes after the old covenant and at the offset of the new covenant that you apply "the end" to called?

The difference is "the end" of telos is determined according to context. It means "the end" of whatever is in view. Where "the end" from sunteleia is always the end of the world.

The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

 

[WPM]

At that point in time they had not received the Holy Spirit. But they would need Him. That's why Christ breathed the Spirit unto them, because without the Spirit in them they might not remain faithful unto their end.

John 20:19-23 (KJV) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

God's people have always had the Spirit. Here are my findings on this matter:

Dispensationalists argue that the old covenant saints could only experience the Spirit of God “upon” them, not “in” them. But Scripture repeatedly contradicts this contention. In the book of Genesis, we see Pharaoh recognize the Spirit of God residing within Joseph. He acknowledged in Genesis 41:37: “Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?”

Isaiah 63:11 speaks of Moses, “Where is he [God] that put his Holy Spirit within him [Moses]?” In Exodus 28:3, we see God instructing Moses: “thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom.” The saints are here described as those who possess the Spirit of God. In Exodus 31:3, the LORD informs Moses regarding Bezaleel, “I have filled him with the spirit of God.” This is repeated in Exodus 31:31. In Exodus 35:21, a company of the children of Israel are set apart for service “every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing.” Here the internal function of the Holy Spirit is seen to be actively at work.

These are explicit statements that challenge the Dispensationalist position. These texts do not merely describe a proximate work of the Holy Spirit but an active internal presence of the Spirit within God’s servants.

Of all that complained in the wilderness, only 2 Israelis over the age of 20 made it into the Promised Land – Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 27:18 tells us, “And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him.” Deuteronomy 34:9 correlates, “Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom.” Numbers 14:24 records: “my servant Caleb … had another spirit with him.”

It was the inward dwelling presence of the Spirit of God under the old covenant that set godly men apart from the religious professors around them. It was the Spirit who enlightened men and it was He who enabled men. Without Him, man was ignorant of God, His truth and His will. Without Him, man was unable to accomplish the purpose of God.

In Job 32:8 we see the reason why the Old Testament saints needed the Holy Spirit. It is the exact same reason why the New Testament saint need Him: “there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” Job 33:4 adds: “The spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” We need to see that it the Spirit of God that gives life – both natural and spiritual. Without Him we are deceived, lost and forsaken. It was the Spirit of God that allowed the Old Testament saints to understand and undertake the high and holy things of God.

The Old Testament emphasizes the need of the Spirit of God, just as the New Testament. The reason being: man’s hopeless predicament outside of the Spirit was as pitiful in that era as ours. Did the angel of the Lord not pronounce those famous words in Zechariah 4:6: “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts”? Pleasing God in any way under the old covenant did not come through ethnic heritage, natural ability, or human striving. It totally came through the enabling power of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost was the necessary help that all men needed to make him alive unto God and pleasing unto Him. That is why Psalm 104:30 tells us: “When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.”

David cried unto God in Psalm 51:10-12, “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.” David, like us, was dependent upon the Spirit to strengthen and help in in godly matters.

Psalm 143:10 asks God: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.”

2 Corinthians 4:13 records: “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.” This is a direct quote from David in Psalm 116:102. 2 Corinthians 4:13 suggests that the very same “spirit of faith” that operated in David in the Old Testament functions in us now. This is further compelling evidence that the Old Testament were as dependent upon the internal workings of the Spirit as we are.

Ezekiel 2:2 personally testified, “the spirit entered into me.” See also Ezekiel 3:24. Micah 3:8 testified, “I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.” The Spirit of God gave the prophet of God the necessary strength in order to operate as a believer and a seer. Daniel 6:3 says of God’s Old Testament servant Daniel, “this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him” (see also 4:8, 9,18, 5:11, 14).