Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[WPM]

At that point in time they had not received the Holy Spirit. But they would need Him. That's why Christ breathed the Spirit unto them, because without the Spirit in them they might not remain faithful unto their end.

John 20:19-23 (KJV) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Nehemiah testified of God’s help for Israel in bygone days in Nehemiah 9:20: “You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.” Nehemiah 9:30 also talks about, “thy spirit in thy prophets.” 1 Peter 1:7-12 repeats this great truth, speaking about the common salvation shared by the New and Old Testament saints: “Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in [Gr. en] them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

The Greek word en here is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” throughout the New Testament. In fact, there are 1,902 instances of such. The Old Testament saints plainly possessed the same Spirit of Christ as the New Testament believers, although, they obviously looked forward, by faith to the promised Redeemer, whereas the New Testament Church now looks back. The Old and New Testament saints, Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into the one harmonious spiritual Israel of God – the Church. This body recognizes no dispensational or ethnic separation at all.

Jesus uses the same Greek word that Peter does to describe the Spirit within believers in the New Testament era. John 14:17 is an example of that. Jesus said: “the Spirit of truth … dwelleth with you, and shall be in [Gr. en] you.” Another similar passage is be found in Romans 8:9: “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in [Gr. en] you.” The same Spirit that dwelt “in” (en) the Old Testament saints dwells in us today.

God’s elect that existed within Israel when Jesus came were few. But Scripture shows that they indwelt by the Spirit. An angel prophesied unto Zacharias in Luke 1:13-17 that his son-to-be John “shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.” Luke 1:41 records of John’s mother, “Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.” Luke 1:67 records of John’s father, “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost.” This was all within the old covenant. This was before the cross. This preceded Pentecost.

One cannot avoid the conclusion presented by Paul that there is a solid unitary connection between God’s people in both testaments. The Bible is manifestly one single combined book telling one consistent story to one interconnected people about one central character: Jesus Christ, who came to save one collective elect people. The Old Testament prepared the way for Christ and pointed the ancient believers in the direction of His impending ministry. The New Testament on the other hand shows the arrival, realization and revelation of the Messiah. Both were unified with the quickening power of the Spirit of God.

Hebrews 11:23-26 tells us, “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”

Moses refused to run with the crowd. He renounced earthly treasures and worldly privilege of eternal riches and heavenly privilege. He refused to take the easy road. He is shown to be identified with Christ, even back deep in the old covenant period. His salvation came alone through the finished work of Christ on the cross. He simply saw it afar off, but believed by faith.

Old Testament believers are depicted as having faith in the coming Messiah. By faith they are shown to have experienced Christ. It was only in Him that they could have experienced eternal life. There was no other Savior and no other salvation. The Bible is one single book telling one single story about one central character: Jesus Christ. The Old Testament prepares the way for Christ and points the ancient believers in the direction of Christ. The New Testament on the other hand is the realization, arrival and revelation of the Messiah.

The Old Testament saints were saved in the exact same way as we were – by grace, through faith. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross by faith; we New Testament saints look back by faith. Sam A. Smith succinctly says, “There is only one means of eternal salvation in history: salvation by grace, through faith in Christ” (Regeneration and Indwelling in the Old Testament).

Romans 4:3 tells us: “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Galatians 3:6 reiterates: “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” James 2:23 agrees, saying, “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”

The same Holy Spirit that enlightens sinner today and brings them into a saving knowledge of truth, did the same in the Old Testament epoch. Without God’s supernatural intervention upon a stubborn sinful heart, man had no way of moving from death unto life. After all, by regeneration the soul is quickened from death into life (Ephesians 2:1-4). Men’s response to God’s voice and men’s response to the quickening power of Spirit determined whether their ears and eyes would be opened. Those who rejected the illuminating and regenerating work of the Spirit were lost.

Stephen made a very telling comment to the Jews after Pentecost supporting this standpoint, in Acts 7:51-52: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”

Stephen likens the resistance he saw in his day to the quickening power of the Spirit to that of unbelieving Israel back in Old Testament times. When the disciples spoke of “the fathers” they were referring to their Old Testament forefathers. When they spoke of “the prophets” they were talking about the Old Testament men of God that spoke the truth of God. This tells us that the same Spirit operating in the same way was never appreciated by hardened religious Israelis, irrespective of whether it was before or after the cross.

 

[WPM]

When did you decide to sell out to Darby/Scofield dispensational futurism?

You are obviously running out of arguments. What I am arguing has nothing to do with that teaching, and you know it.

 

[rwb]

So, what is this new period you have created that comes after the old covenant and at the offset of the new covenant that you apply "the end" to called?

Sorry! Don't know what you mean?

So, what is this new period you have created that comes after the old covenant and at the offset of the new covenant that you apply "the end" to called?


The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

The context tells us what "the end" is. The beginning is not in question! And telos defined "the end" is, according to context, speaking of whatever is in view. OTOH syntéleia defined "the end" always speaks of the consummation when Christ comes again.

 

[rwb]

God's people have always had the Spirit. Here are my findings on this matter:

Dispensationalists argue that the old covenant saints could only experience the Spirit of God “upon” them, not “in” them. But Scripture repeatedly contradicts this contention. In the book of Genesis, we see Pharaoh recognize the Spirit of God residing within Joseph. He acknowledged in Genesis 41:37: “Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?”

Isaiah 63:11 speaks of Moses, “Where is he [God] that put his Holy Spirit within him [Moses]?” In Exodus 28:3, we see God instructing Moses: “thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom.” The saints are here described as those who possess the Spirit of God. In Exodus 31:3, the LORD informs Moses regarding Bezaleel, “I have filled him with the spirit of God.” This is repeated in Exodus 31:31. In Exodus 35:21, a company of the children of Israel are set apart for service “every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing.” Here the internal function of the Holy Spirit is seen to be actively at work.

These are explicit statements that challenge the Dispensationalist position. These texts do not merely describe a proximate work of the Holy Spirit but an active internal presence of the Spirit within God’s servants.

Of all that complained in the wilderness, only 2 Israelis over the age of 20 made it into the Promised Land – Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 27:18 tells us, “And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him.” Deuteronomy 34:9 correlates, “Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom.” Numbers 14:24 records: “my servant Caleb … had another spirit with him.”

It was the inward dwelling presence of the Spirit of God under the old covenant that set godly men apart from the religious professors around them. It was the Spirit who enlightened men and it was He who enabled men. Without Him, man was ignorant of God, His truth and His will. Without Him, man was unable to accomplish the purpose of God.

In Job 32:8 we see the reason why the Old Testament saints needed the Holy Spirit. It is the exact same reason why the New Testament saint need Him: “there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” Job 33:4 adds: “The spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” We need to see that it the Spirit of God that gives life – both natural and spiritual. Without Him we are deceived, lost and forsaken. It was the Spirit of God that allowed the Old Testament saints to understand and undertake the high and holy things of God.

The Old Testament emphasizes the need of the Spirit of God, just as the New Testament. The reason being: man’s hopeless predicament outside of the Spirit was as pitiful in that era as ours. Did the angel of the Lord not pronounce those famous words in Zechariah 4:6: “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts”? Pleasing God in any way under the old covenant did not come through ethnic heritage, natural ability, or human striving. It totally came through the enabling power of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost was the necessary help that all men needed to make him alive unto God and pleasing unto Him. That is why Psalm 104:30 tells us: “When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.”

David cried unto God in Psalm 51:10-12, “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.” David, like us, was dependent upon the Spirit to strengthen and help in in godly matters.

Psalm 143:10 asks God: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.”

2 Corinthians 4:13 records: “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.” This is a direct quote from David in Psalm 116:102. 2 Corinthians 4:13 suggests that the very same “spirit of faith” that operated in David in the Old Testament functions in us now. This is further compelling evidence that the Old Testament were as dependent upon the internal workings of the Spirit as we are.

Ezekiel 2:2 personally testified, “the spirit entered into me.” See also Ezekiel 3:24. Micah 3:8 testified, “I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.” The Spirit of God gave the prophet of God the necessary strength in order to operate as a believer and a seer. Daniel 6:3 says of God’s Old Testament servant Daniel, “this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him” (see also 4:8, 9,18, 5:11, 14).

The Holy Spirit has always been sent by God to be with certain individuals, but He was not IN US until after the cross and resurrection.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Spirit is the SIGN of the Spirit IN THEM that would assure not only these disciples of Christ, but every disciple of Christ so they would be faithful unto death. Without the SIGN (Spirit in you) the first century disciples would not have given their lives, (which would be required of all but one of them) for the Gospel.

 

[WPM]

There are four instances where Jesus uses the word "sunteleia" and it is translated "end of the age". (Matthew 13:39,40,49; Matthew 28:20)

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

Thus in Matthew 24, Jesus' use of the word "telos" does not refer to the end of the age.

It refers to the end of the OT Jewish economy in 70AD.

Not so. The Greek word eschatos means end, last, farthest or final. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished.

Jesus’ response to His disciples in Matthew 24:6 and 13-14 is notable: “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end [Gr. telos] is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end [Gr. telos], the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end [Gr. telos] come.”

God’s people did not endure until AD 70 (your invented end of the Mosaic age). They fled before it. This is another proof that what you are suggesting is nonsensical.

This corresponds with Revelation 2:26-27: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

Jesus, here, speaks of His coming, the destruction of the wicked and the reward of His saints. He describes this as “the end” [Gr. telos]. He also presents this as the pivotal moment in history that brings an end to the tribulation of the saints. Those who overcome till then will be rewarded accordingly.

This is a constant theme in Scripture.

Hebrews 3:14, says, “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end [Gr. telos].”

Hebrews 6:11 says, “And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end [Gr. telos].”

The Christian will therefore remain on earth “unto the end.” Here in these passages, he is commanded to be “stedfast unto the end,” “hope unto the end,” to keep God’s “works unto the end.”

If we are to be consistent, if we are to take a word literally, plainly and straightforwardly in its context, then we should take the word “end” to mean the end.

 

[rwb]

Nehemiah testified of God’s help for Israel in bygone days in Nehemiah 9:20: “You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.” Nehemiah 9:30 also talks about, “thy spirit in thy prophets.” 1 Peter 1:7-12 repeats this great truth, speaking about the common salvation shared by the New and Old Testament saints: “Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in [Gr. en] them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

The Greek word en here is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” throughout the New Testament. In fact, there are 1,902 instances of such. The Old Testament saints plainly possessed the same Spirit of Christ as the New Testament believers, although, they obviously looked forward, by faith to the promised Redeemer, whereas the New Testament Church now looks back. The Old and New Testament saints, Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into the one harmonious spiritual Israel of God – the Church. This body recognizes no dispensational or ethnic separation at all.

Jesus uses the same Greek word that Peter does to describe the Spirit within believers in the New Testament era. John 14:17 is an example of that. Jesus said: “the Spirit of truth … dwelleth with you, and shall be in [Gr. en] you.” Another similar passage is be found in Romans 8:9: “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in [Gr. en] you.” The same Spirit that dwelt “in” (en) the Old Testament saints dwells in us today.

God’s elect that existed within Israel when Jesus came were few. But Scripture shows that they indwelt by the Spirit. An angel prophesied unto Zacharias in Luke 1:13-17 that his son-to-be John “shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.” Luke 1:41 records of John’s mother, “Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.” Luke 1:67 records of John’s father, “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost.” This was all within the old covenant. This was before the cross. This preceded Pentecost.

One cannot avoid the conclusion presented by Paul that there is a solid unitary connection between God’s people in both testaments. The Bible is manifestly one single combined book telling one consistent story to one interconnected people about one central character: Jesus Christ, who came to save one collective elect people. The Old Testament prepared the way for Christ and pointed the ancient believers in the direction of His impending ministry. The New Testament on the other hand shows the arrival, realization and revelation of the Messiah. Both were unified with the quickening power of the Spirit of God.

Hebrews 11:23-26 tells us, “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”

Moses refused to run with the crowd. He renounced earthly treasures and worldly privilege of eternal riches and heavenly privilege. He refused to take the easy road. He is shown to be identified with Christ, even back deep in the old covenant period. His salvation came alone through the finished work of Christ on the cross. He simply saw it afar off, but believed by faith.

Old Testament believers are depicted as having faith in the coming Messiah. By faith they are shown to have experienced Christ. It was only in Him that they could have experienced eternal life. There was no other Savior and no other salvation. The Bible is one single book telling one single story about one central character: Jesus Christ. The Old Testament prepares the way for Christ and points the ancient believers in the direction of Christ. The New Testament on the other hand is the realization, arrival and revelation of the Messiah.

The Old Testament saints were saved in the exact same way as we were – by grace, through faith. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross by faith; we New Testament saints look back by faith. Sam A. Smith succinctly says, “There is only one means of eternal salvation in history: salvation by grace, through faith in Christ” (Regeneration and Indwelling in the Old Testament).

Romans 4:3 tells us: “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Galatians 3:6 reiterates: “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” James 2:23 agrees, saying, “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”

The same Holy Spirit that enlightens sinner today and brings them into a saving knowledge of truth, did the same in the Old Testament epoch. Without God’s supernatural intervention upon a stubborn sinful heart, man had no way of moving from death unto life. After all, by regeneration the soul is quickened from death into life (Ephesians 2:1-4). Men’s response to God’s voice and men’s response to the quickening power of Spirit determined whether their ears and eyes would be opened. Those who rejected the illuminating and regenerating work of the Spirit were lost.

Stephen made a very telling comment to the Jews after Pentecost supporting this standpoint, in Acts 7:51-52: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”

Stephen likens the resistance he saw in his day to the quickening power of the Spirit to that of unbelieving Israel back in Old Testament times. When the disciples spoke of “the fathers” they were referring to their Old Testament forefathers. When they spoke of “the prophets” they were talking about the Old Testament men of God that spoke the truth of God. This tells us that the same Spirit operating in the same way was never appreciated by hardened religious Israelis, irrespective of whether it was before or after the cross.

Who are you arguing with? I've never said or even implied the Holy Spirit's presence being in certain people in both the Old and New Testaments. Though the Spirit was in some people of old, the Spirit came and went according to the will of God. That's why we read of Him coming upon a person repeatedly. That's why Christ said "you know Him, He was with you, and shall be IN you."

 

[WPM]

The Holy Spirit has always been sent by God to be with certain individuals, but He was not IN US until after the cross and resurrection.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Spirit is the SIGN of the Spirit IN THEM that would assure not only these disciples of Christ, but every disciple of Christ so they would be faithful unto death. Without the SIGN (Spirit in you) the first century disciples would not have given their lives, (which would be required of all but one of them) for the Gospel.

I gave you the Scriptures that says otherwise but you failed to address any of the passages.

 

[rwb]

I gave you the Scriptures that says otherwise but you failed to address any of the passages.

You gave verses attributing what I've already said I agree with??? Why not address the verse I gave you that tells us the Spirit was WITH you but would be IN you? It's the permanent presence of Christ IN us by His Spirit that is the SIGN Christ's disciples (all of them) cannot endure or believe without.

 

[WPM]

There are four instances where Jesus uses the word "sunteleia" and it is translated "end of the age". (Matthew 13:39,40,49; Matthew 28:20)

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

Thus in Matthew 24, Jesus' use of the word "telos" does not refer to the end of the age.

It refers to the end of the OT Jewish economy in 70AD.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

From a careful study of these expressions you will see that what is referred to as “this age/time” has a defined end, whereas the “the age to come” has none. The reason for this is that the termination of “this age” brings an end to time, whereas the ushering in the “the age to come” brings in the eternal.

To inherit the new earth is actually to be qualified to populate it. Only the new creation can inherit the new creation. The new glorified incorrupt earth is not for mortals. It is not for the wicked. It is for the incorupt redeemed. It is for the glorified saints.

The Apostle Paul instructs the believer in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 to “come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end [Gr. telos], that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

No one can dispute that that he coming of the Lord is connected here to “the end.” We can see here how the phrases “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “the end” are depicted as synonymous. The second coming is depicted throughout the Word as a climactic event that ushers in the conclusion of time. Within this teaching is a comforting promise for every child of God that that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.”

Wayne Grudem interprets this verse, “Here he [Paul] connects the possession of spiritual gifts and their situation in the history of redemption (waiting for Christ's return), suggesting that gifts are given to the church for the period between Christ's ascension and his return” (pg. 1019).

Grudem continues: “Paul saw the gifts as a temporary provision made to equip believers for ministry until the Lord returned” (pg. 1035).

When Christ comes the gifts will be rendered unnecessary. They will be obsolete. We shall then be perfected and will have no need to operate in any gift. Christ will be all-in-all.

 

[WPM]

There are four instances where Jesus uses the word "sunteleia" and it is translated "end of the age". (Matthew 13:39,40,49; Matthew 28:20)

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

Thus in Matthew 24, Jesus' use of the word "telos" does not refer to the end of the age.

It refers to the end of the OT Jewish economy in 70AD.

Solomon declared in Ecclesiastes 3:11: “He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh] to the end [Heb. sôph].”

No one would think of interpreting this in any other way but it’s plain straightforward translation: the beginning is the beginning and the end is the end. These two highlighted Hebrew words contrast two completely diverse events, one relating to the commencement of creation and the other to the conclusion. So, these two Hebrew words (rô'sh and sôph) cover 2 contrasting and diverse events.

Isaiah 46:9-10 uses two other Hebrew words that are more commonly used in the Old Testament. The text reads: “I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end [Heb. achărı̂yth] from the beginning [Heb. rê'shı̂yth], and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying.”

The Hebrew word rê'shı̂yth here means: first, beginning, best, or chief. This is the word used in Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew antithesis to this is achărı̂yth meaning: end (issue or event), or hindermost.

This contrast is extremely useful in that it gives us a sense of the two completely contrasting events – with two divergent realities. It also supplies us with two suitable Hebrew words for the same.

It is the same in the New Testament. Jesus teaches in Revelation 22:6: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos].”

Jesus said in Revelation 22:13: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos], the first [Gr. protos] and the last [Gr. eschatos].”

It is not hard to grasp the import of this teaching. Firstly, Alpha (Α or α) and omega (Ω or ω) are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. These sum up Jesus. Also, to we are told that Christ is “the beginning and the end.” Again, it is not hard to get our heads round this. He is from start to finish.

The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe Christ and describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning “end.” They are the antithesis of each other.

• The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement.
• The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished.

Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” [Gr. telos] to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of time and the end of this current corrupt earth.

The Greek word eschatos means last, farthest, final, end or uttermost.

It is where we get the word theological term eschatology, which describes what we are doing tonight – it means the study of end-times or final things.

 

[WPM]

You gave verses attributing what I've already said I agree with??? Why not address the verse I gave you that tells us the Spirit was WITH you but would be IN you? It's the permanent presence of Christ IN us by His Spirit that is the SIGN Christ's disciples (all of them) cannot endure or believe without.

It nowhere says the Spirit was not permanent. Just because you say that does not make it so.

 

[rwb]

It nowhere says the Spirit was not permanent. Just because you say that does not make it so.

Why does Christ say He will not come until He goes away and sends Him?

John 16:7-15 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[rwb]

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Didn't Christ come to those who had already died, through His Spirit? Aren't they presently spiritually alive with Christ in heaven? Isn't that what Paul means when he says Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept? They were physically dead being born in Adam. Now, since Christ is resurrected, He became the firstfruits of the physically dead. Now, since Christ is resurrected, they are spiritually alive with Christ in heaven as "living souls." So too, all who shall be made alive in Christ after these who have already lived in Christ and physically died, in his/her own order shall be made spiritually alive when Christ comes to them by His Spirit. Then when "the end" of physical life through Adam comes for all who shall be of the Kingdom of God spiritually, the Kingdom shall be delivered up to God the Father after Christ has put down all rule, authority and power that natural/physical man possesses.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

After those who lived in Christ physically die, we are no longer terrestrial or earthly bodies, we become as celestial/heavenly bodies to bear the image of the Lord, in the same way in physical life we bear the image of the first Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:40 (KJV) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Then after the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, the last trump shall sound and we shall be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible to be reunited with our eternal spirit that returns with Christ. When we are once again whole "living souls" as we were in the beginning, we shall be fit to live with Christ on the new earth forever.

 

[WPM]

Why does Christ say He will not come until He goes away and sends Him?

John 16:7-15 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

There is a difference between being born of the Spirit and being baptized in the Spirit.

 

[WPM]

Didn't Christ come to those who had already died through His Spirit? Aren't they presently spiritually alive with Christ in heaven? Isn't that what Paul means when he says Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept? They were physically dead being born in Adam. Now, since Christ is resurrected, He became the firstfruits of the physically dead. Now, since Christ is resurrected, they are spiritually alive with Christ in heaven as "living souls." So too, all who shall be made alive in Christ after these who have already lived in Christ and physically died, in his/her own order shall be made spiritually alive when Christ comes to them by His Spirit. Then when "the end" of physical life through Adam comes for all who shall be of the Kingdom of God spiritually, the Kingdom shall be delivered up to God the Father after Christ has put down all rule, authority and power that natural/physical man possesses.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

After those who lived in Christ physically die, we are no longer terrestrial or earthly bodies, we become as celestial/heavenly bodies to bear the image of the Lord, in the same way in physical life we bear the image of the first Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:40 (KJV) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Then after the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, the last trump shall sound and we shall be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible to be reunited with our eternal spirit that returns with Christ. When we are once again whole "living souls" as we were in the beginning, we shall be fit to live with Christ on the new earth forever.

You are twisting what it is saying. The second coming ushers in the end. Let the texts speak for themselves.

 

[rwb]

There is a difference between being born of the Spirit and being baptized in the Spirit.

Really! Care to elaborate?

 

[rwb]

You are twisting what it is saying. The second coming ushers in the end. Let the texts speak for themselves.

You call what you don't agree with twisting? Unless you can show me how I've twisted the texts, I will assume you cannot, and therefore it is your opinion without fact!

 

[covenantee]

Jesus said in Revelation 22:13: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos], the first [Gr. protos] and the last [Gr. eschatos].”

It is the same in the New Testament. Jesus teaches in Revelation 22:6: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos].”

Confirming what I've said.

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

 

[rwb]

Confirming what I've said.

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".

Absolutely true! Not one time is "telos" translated "end of the age"!

 

[covenantee]

The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished.

The "thing" in Matthew 24 was Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.