Preterism misrepresents Scripture

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rwb

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The "thing" in Matthew 24 was Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.

The definition of "telos" also carries with it a continual custom that is coming to an end! Although the Old Covenant was ended by the cross & resurrection, the customary worship did not end until the temple and buildings were destroyed.


Strong's Greek Dictionary
5056. τέλος telos (télos)

Search for G5056 in KJVSL; in KJV.
τέλος télos, tel'-os

from a primary τέλλω téllō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost.

Here is one example:

Matthew 17:25 (KJV) He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom (telos) or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
 
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covenantee

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You are obviously running out of arguments. What I am arguing has nothing to do with that teaching, and you know it.
You are espousing classic modernist Darby/Scofield futurist fallacy in your malinterpretation of Jesus use of "telos" in Matthew 24.

I would also challenge you to provide any evidence of any recognized orthodox Christian expositor prior to the 19th century who espoused the same futurist fallacy about "telos" in Matthew 24.

I await your evidence with interest.
 
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rwb

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The "thing" in Matthew 24 was Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.

At the very least the Temple and buildings that from Old represented the Holy Place of God and worship to Him in Jerusalem.
 

WPM

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Really! Care to elaborate?
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Whilst the baptism of the Holy Ghost was 1st announced by John the Baptist it never seen its fulfilment until the day of Pentecost.

Acts 1:4-5 confirms its fulfilment: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Christ applied the realization of this promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit to the day of Pentecost that was approaching. This was indeed “the promise of the Father.”

Even though these disciples were Christians Christ was telling them that they needed a power from the Holy Ghost that would propel them to decimate the kingdom of darkness.

Christ also said in Luke 24:46-49: “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

The promise of the Father was the baptism of the Holy Ghost which was a power from on high that endued them for service.

Peter said about this same baptism, in Acts 2:38-39, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

The Lord continues in Acts 1:8 on the same subject: “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Where all the disciples converted on (and before) the actual day of the day of Pentecost? Of course! Scripture proves that the disciples were all saved at the time of John or thereafter, and all were soundly saved by the time they reached the day of Pentecost.

Jesus said in Mark 9:1 to the disciples: “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (or dunamis).

Whilst Christ introduced the kingdom with His earthly ministry, the kingdom of God did not “come with power” until Pentecost. The Holy Ghost falling upon them equipped the disciples to take the Gospel out into the nations, with remarkable courage, strength and success.

The Greek word here for “power” is dunamis – where we get the English words dynamite or dynamo from.

God was saying that the kingdom of God was soon going to be explosive. Believers were going to have a turbo put into their engine that would embolden them to invade the nations with the glorious Gospel of Christ.
 

WPM

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Confirming what I've said.

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".
You are not talking to a Pretribber now bro. Your petty name-calling and 2 or 3 line replies do not cut it with me. Address each point and passage if you want me to take your arguments serious.
 
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WPM

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At the very least the Temple and buildings that from Old represented the Holy Place of God and worship to Him in Jerusalem.

Even after the old covenant finished at the cross?
 

WPM

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You are espousing classic modernist Darby/Scofield futurist fallacy in your malinterpretation of Jesus use of "telos" in Matthew 24.

I would also challenge you to provide any evidence of any recognized orthodox Christian expositor prior to the 19th century who espoused the same futurist fallacy about "telos" in Matthew 24.

I await your evidence with interest.
You seem to build your doctrines on man. I prefer to let the Bible speak for itself.
 
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WPM

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The definition of "telos" also carries with it a continual custom that is coming to an end! Although the Old Covenant was ended by the cross & resurrection, the customary worship did not end until the temple and buildings were destroyed.


Strong's Greek Dictionary
5056. τέλος telos (télos)

Search for G5056 in KJVSL; in KJV.
τέλος télos, tel'-os

from a primary τέλλω téllō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost.

Here is one example:

Matthew 17:25 (KJV) He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom (telos) or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
It finished from God's perspective on the cross. Sorry you do not believe that.
 

rwb

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Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Whilst the baptism of the Holy Ghost was 1st announced by John the Baptist it never seen its fulfilment until the day of Pentecost.

Acts 1:4-5 confirms its fulfilment: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Christ applied the realization of this promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit to the day of Pentecost that was approaching. This was indeed “the promise of the Father.”

Even though these disciples were Christians Christ was telling them that they needed a power from the Holy Ghost that would propel them to decimate the kingdom of darkness.

Christ also said in Luke 24:46-49: “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

The promise of the Father was the baptism of the Holy Ghost which was a power from on high that endued them for service.

Peter said about this same baptism, in Acts 2:38-39, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

The Lord continues in Acts 1:8 on the same subject: “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Where all the disciples converted on (and before) the actual day of the day of Pentecost? Of course! Scripture proves that the disciples were all saved at the time of John or thereafter, and all were soundly saved by the time they reached the day of Pentecost.

Jesus said in Mark 9:1 to the disciples: “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (or dunamis).

Whilst Christ introduced the kingdom with His earthly ministry, the kingdom of God did not “come with power” until Pentecost. The Holy Ghost falling upon them equipped the disciples to take the Gospel out into the nations, with remarkable courage, strength and success.

The Greek word here for “power” is dunamis – where we get the English words dynamite or dynamo from.

God was saying that the kingdom of God was soon going to be explosive. Believers were going to have a turbo put into their engine that would embolden them to invade the nations with the glorious Gospel of Christ.

It appears you are confirming what I've argued all along. The disciples needed the SIGN which was given them first when Christ breathed on them after His resurrection, and then the SIGN of the Holy Spirit in them confirmed at Pentecost when they received power from on high. That's why they asked Christ "what will be the SIGN of thy coming"? Not His coming physically in the clouds, but His coming with power that they would believe.
 

WPM

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It appears you are confirming what I've argued all along. The disciples needed the SIGN which was given them first when Christ breathed on them after His resurrection, and then the SIGN of the Holy Spirit in them confirmed at Pentecost when they received power from on high. That's why they asked Christ "what will be the SIGN of thy coming"? Not His coming physically in the clouds, but His coming with power that they would believe.

Not so. We are poles apart. The sign is His coming. Read the Book.
 

WPM

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The definition of "telos" also carries with it a continual custom that is coming to an end! Although the Old Covenant was ended by the cross & resurrection, the customary worship did not end until the temple and buildings were destroyed.


Strong's Greek Dictionary
5056. τέλος telos (télos)

Search for G5056 in KJVSL; in KJV.
τέλος télos, tel'-os

from a primary τέλλω téllō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost.

Here is one example:

Matthew 17:25 (KJV) He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom (telos) or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

I showed you the biblical evidence. Do with it what you want. It is crystal clear to me. Full Preterists do this all the time. They search until they find an obscure meaning to support their error. You are using their exact arguments. Can I remind you? This leads to heresy.
 

rwb

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Even after the old covenant finished at the cross?

It simply is not possible to deny historical truth Paul. We know the New Covenant in Christ came and the Old Covenant ended by His cross and resurrection. But until the utter destruction there was still a temptation, and these first disciples could be deceived into returning to that which Christ abolished.
 
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rwb

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It finished from God's perspective on the cross. Sorry you do not believe that.

This is the type of replies that serve no help whatsoever. You are well aware that I have no doubt the cross & resurrection finished the Old Covenant completely! To say I don't believe that shows your frustration. It has been my experience that frustration usually comes into these forum discussions when one is faced with doctrine they do not agree with and cannot prove their doctrine as truth.
 
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WPM

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It simply is not possible to deny historical truth Paul. We know the New Covenant in Christ came and the Old Covenant ended by His cross and resurrection. But until the utter destruction there was still a temptation, and these first disciples could be deceived into returning to that which Christ abolished.

It was gone! You are inventing a new arrangement - with a new starting and termination point that is extra to the old covenant and new covenant. That is insane. The reality is: it didn't exist. That belong to the Full Preterist manuals. The old covenant was long gone by AD 70. All that was left was a decaying corpse.
 

WPM

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This is the type of replies that serve no help whatsoever. You are well aware that I have no doubt the cross & resurrection finished the Old Covenant completely! To say I don't believe that shows your frustration. It has been my experience that frustration usually comes into these forum discussions when one is faced with doctrine they do not agree with and cannot prove their doctrine as truth.

Please do not speak on my behalf. Your allegation is false. I am waiting for you both to address the hard detailed (and compelling) biblical evidence that forbids your claims. Unfortunately, that is proving difficult. You can interpret that as frustration all you want in order to justify your avoidance. But, the reality it is untrue.
 

WPM

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This is the type of replies that serve no help whatsoever. You are well aware that I have no doubt the cross & resurrection finished the Old Covenant completely! To say I don't believe that shows your frustration. It has been my experience that frustration usually comes into these forum discussions when one is faced with doctrine they do not agree with and cannot prove their doctrine as truth.
It is certainly not my intention to misrepresent your beliefs. I apologize if I have.

My struggle is that you are trying to create another period or age that was not completed at the cross which Scripture does not recognize. Your theology seems to be contradicting itself. You appear to be forcing it on the sacred text.
 

covenantee

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You are not talking to a Pretribber now bro. Your petty name-calling and 2 or 3 line replies do not cut it with me. Address each point and passage if you want me to take your arguments serious.
I'm talking to a fantasy futurist. Not much difference.

I'll take 2 or 3 line replies over a bloated surfeit of private interpretation, every time.

But keep that Scripture coming. Every quote of yours re-confirms the reality:

There is not one instance where Jesus uses the word "telos" and it is translated "end of the age".