Prohibition and Church

[dev553344]

I was raised LDS and followed it for about 38 years from childhood until 38 years of age. I always thought drinking was a sin.

It wasn't until later that I realized that drinking is all thru out the bible. It is even prescribed as a medicinal value in Psalms. And now days with our advanced medicine and technology they would prescribe the horrific opioid pain killers, instead of the less damaging alcohol. I think the government would love it if they could enforce prohibition. Have we really come that far in medicine? Perhaps in some areas we have. And opioids do serve a short term purpose. But for long term minor physical and emotional, mental pain relief perhaps alcohol is the best medicine.

Proverbs 31
6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing,
And wine to those who are bitter of heart.
7 Let him drink and forget his poverty,
And remember his misery no more.

The bible also makes it clear that we should not be drinking during the day, but instead be productive. There is a time and such for drinking. And there is clear evidence that the wine they were drinking even in the new testament was fermented. And probably around 15-20% alcohol.

Noah drank, Lot drank (although both extreme examples of people that lost everything), Jesus and the Apostles drank moderately, Jesus created wine from water. Etc, Etc, Etc.

Ideas?

 

[dev553344]

I think it's important to note that we all have different genetic makeup and therefore our bodies and minds and therefore emotions develop differently. For some people not touching alcohol is wise and good. And for others it may not be wise and good.

 

[Behold]

Ideas?

Why do it?

Why drink something that alters your behavior, and damages your brain and organs?

So, find that out, and you've discovered the problem with recreational drinking.


Now, it can be that you can USE this drug for medicinal purposes..

"Timothy take a little wine for your upset stomach".

 

[dev553344]

Why do it?

Why drink something that alters your behavior, and damages your brain and organs?

So, find that out, and you've discovered the problem with recreational drinking.


Now, it can be that you can USE this drug for medicinal purposes..

"Timothy take a little wine for your upset stomach".

Alcohol is not known to damage the body in normal intake levels. Perhaps if you cited some sources for your statements.

 

[Behold]

Alcohol is not known to damage the body in normal intake levels. Perhaps if you cited some sources for your statements.

Alcohol is toxic to the Liver and Brain.

The Liver gets rid of it, as it would any other toxin.

The reason you feel drunk, or woozy, or "high", is because that is the TOXICITY of this chemical, and when you stop feeling drunk, its because your LIVER has worked to get rid of it, and this harms the Liver, as this Toxin makes changes in the Liver's function.

Over time, this becomes cirrhosis.


A small amount of wine, and not GIN or SCOTCH, as this is much higher in %content.....

= "Timothy take a little wine...(not 60% Alcohol content Bourbon)...is medicinal.

Paul didnt say...>"have a drink anytime you feel upset".

A.) Context

 

[dev553344]

Alcohol is toxic to the Liver and Brain.

The Liver gets rid of it, as it would any other toxin.

The reason you feel drunk, or woozy, or "high", is because that is the TOXICITY of this chemical, and when you stop feeling drunk, its because your LIVER has worked to get rid of it, and this harms the Liver, as this Toxin makes changes in the Liver's function.

Over time, this becomes cirrhosis.


A small amount of wine, and not GIN or SCOTCH, as this is much higher in %content.....

= "Timothy take a little wine...(not 60% Alcohol content Bourbon)...is medicinal.

Paul didnt say...>"have a drink anytime you feel upset".

A.) Context

Again you're choosing one scripture and ignoring the rest. I have posted Psalms 31:6-7. You're further opinion that all levels of alcohol is toxic to the liver is opinion and not supported by cited scientific articles.

Alcohol gets a person drunk because it affects the brain not the liver.

You must be assuming that all people that drink are daily heavy drinkers?

 

[Behold]

Again you're choosing one scripture and ignoring the rest. I have posted Psalms 31:6-7. You're further opinion that all alcohol is toxic to the liver is opinion and not supported by cited scientific articles.

Alcohol gets a person drunk because it affects the brain not the liver. Don't be silly @Behold with make believe facts.

Its "cirrhosis of the Liver" = Alcohol issue

You also dont want to drink it when Pregnant as it can harm the developing baby.

So, listen, you are a human being with free will. (free moral agent)... And if you want to Drink, then Drink.
"bottoms up". fella.
But dont teach Christians that drinking has no cost, no consequence, as it does.

It impairs you when you are drinking, and over time, it can harm your body.
If they catch you drinking and driving, before you kill someone with your car, then you are going to face some Court issues.
But dont let that stop you.
You do what you WANT TO DO, @dev553344


Would i teach my students that its best to avoid mind altering substances?
Of course.
And if they said...>"well, what about an occasional glass of wine, or during dinner on occasion, or a glass with my friends, on occasion..
I would tell them that having an occasional glass of wine is an occasional glass of wine, and if their conscious is not STUNG when they are doing it, or about to do it, or afterwards, then that is for them....

Study this, when you have some time away from trying to get Christian to drink.

1 Corinthians 8:13

 

[dev553344]

Its "cirrhosis of the Liver" = Alcohol issue

You also dont want to drink it when Pregnant as it can harm the developing baby.

So, listen, you are a human being with free will. And if you want to Drink, then Drink.
But dont teach Christians that drinking has no cost, no consequence, as it does.

It impairs you when you are drinking, and over time, it can harm your body.
If they catch you drinking and driving, before you kill someone with your car, then you are going to face some Court issues.
But dont let that stop you.
You do what you WANT TO DO, @dev553344


Would i teach my students that its best to avoid mind altering substances?
Of course.
And if they said...>"well, what about an occasional glass of wine, or during dinner on occasion, or a glass with my friends, on occasion..
I would tell them that having an occasional glass of wine is an occasional glass of wine, and if their conscious is not STUNG when they are doing it, or about to do it, or afterwards, then that is for them....

Study this, when you have some time away from trying to get people to drink.

1 Corinthians 8:13

More nonsense from @Behold the prohibitionist. Still avoiding certain scripture I see. Did you even address Psalms 31:6-7. While you were calling me a wicked teacher, you were also attacking the bible with prohibition mind set nonsense.

Jesus drank, the apostles drank, and Noah, Lot, and probably everyone else in the bible. Guess you're calling us all wicked teachers.

 

[Behold]

More nonsense from @Behold the prohibitionist.

Its true that you wont ever find my ministry as "teaching people to Drink"....especially Christians.

I'll leave that to people like you, @dev553344

Here is another way you can think of it...
Lets say you are actually born again, and going to heaven, vs, just being water baptized and religious, and not going to heaven.

So, you die today, and you meet Jesus.

He will say.....so what have you been doing for me, @dev553344

You can tell Him, (today) "Well LORD i was trying to get Christians to DRINK, using a "christian" Forum".

That's it @dev553344 .... make Him proud of you.

 

[dev553344]

Its true that you wont ever find my ministry as "teaching people to Drink"....especially Christians.

I'll leave that to people like you, @dev553344

Help yourself.

I would be very careful how you talk about the bible and Jesus @Behold. You're not just attacking me here, but let's be honest, Jesus turned water into wine for a marriage party. And they all drank it. Yes that's right, Jesus using God's power creating wine for them to consume.

How does that fit with your testimony about alcohol and slandering my position. Jesus' blood is the wine here @Behold that comforts his children. His blood is different than wine of course and is holy, but there is a reason he likened it to wine.

 

[Behold]

I would be very careful how you talk about the bible and Jesus @Behold. You're not just attacking me here,

You are not being attacked.

You are on a christian forum, trying to prove that Christians can Drink.

Here is another way you can think of it...
Lets say you are actually born again, and going to heaven, vs, just being water baptized and religious, and not going to heaven.

So, you die today, and you meet Jesus.
You might.
I might also.

He will say to you.....so what have you been doing for me TODAY ????, @dev553344

You can tell Him, (today) "Well LORD i was trying to get Christians to DRINK, using a "christian" Forum". 'Using your word".


Help Yourself.

 

[dev553344]

You are not being attacked.

You are on a christian forum, trying to prove that Christians can Drink.

Here is another way you can think of it...
Lets say you are actually born again, and going to heaven, vs, just being water baptized and religious, and not going to heaven.

So, you die today, and you meet Jesus.
You might.
I might also.

He will say to you.....so what have you been doing for me TODAY ????, @dev553344

You can tell Him, (today) "Well LORD i was trying to get Christians to DRINK, using a "christian" Forum". 'Using your word".


Help Yourself.

Interesting use of words @Behold. Am I teaching Christians to drink? Honestly I started a discussion about whether prohibition is good. I used the bible to support that it is not good for all people and that enforcing it is in fact sadistic.

I'm noticing a pattern in my discussions with you, that you keep ignoring relevant scripture and make character assaults.

 

[Behold]

Interesting use of words @Behold. Am I teaching Christians to drink?

Are you teaching them to abstain?
I hadn't notice that?

"behold, you can't be serious....how can you say that alcohol harms anyone........c'mon behold, ... have a tody for the body".

So, run along.
Its enough. @dev553344

You've made your point.
Ive addressed it.
Let the reader decide.
See you there.

 

[dev553344]

I want to remind everyone that this thread is a debate about whether forcing prohibition on others is or should be supported by any church or government.

What it is not! It is not a thread teaching Christians to drink.

I don't even know why I have to say that, but apparently I do.

 

[Arthur81]

I would be very careful how you talk about the bible and Jesus @Behold. You're not just attacking me here, but let's be honest, Jesus turned water into wine for a marriage party. And they all drank it. Yes that's right, Jesus using God's power creating wine for them to consume.

How does that fit with your testimony about alcohol and slandering my position. Jesus' blood is the wine here @Behold that comforts his children. His blood is different than wine of course and is holy, but there is a reason he likened it to wine.

Dev, the history, or legend is that the Baptist preacher Elijah Craig is who first invented or discovered bourbon. The wedding feast you mentioned is interesting for the amount of water Jesus turned into wine -

His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” Now standing there were six stone water jars for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the chief steward.” So they took it. When the steward tasted the water that had become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now.” (John 2:5-10 NRSV)

Jesus turned 120-180 gallons of water into wine! It was surely wine, NOT grape juice as some try to claim because grape juice does not make anyone "drunk".

It can be that prohibiting alcohol use is counter-productive as was witnessed by the Al Capone types of years back. Prohibiting what the Bible does not prohibit may bring into play the old saying, "Forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest". Seems that Romans chapter 14 would come into play here.

In Bible days, distilled drinks did not exist, only wine and beer. But as to alcohol content, that depends on how much of any drink you consume -

Two shots = 3 oz of 40% or 80 proof alcohol gives 1.2 oz of pure alcohol

Two glasses of wine = 10 oz of 12% so that gives also 1.2 oz of pure alcohol

Two cans of beer = 24 oz of 5% so that gives also 1.2 oz of pure alcohol

Yes, sometimes I consume Smirnoff No 21 vodka on ice because it is filtered Ten Times, and has no additives to stir up my asthma. No, I am not telling anyone to do likewise, I'm just giving 'full disclosure' of my perspective. Years ago I read a study that claimed the prohibitionist churches had more problem with alcohol abusers than the more open minded Lutheran's and Anglicans on the this.

 

[Behold]

Dev the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now.” (John 2:5-10 NRSV)

"become drunk" is not a good translation.

Also, it probably took Jesus about 2 seconds to turn the water into wine.

Do you think Mary was "well Drunk" and Jesus also, before He did the miracle?

Sometimes you have to really consider all the ramifications of a verse, and, look at other translations, and pause and consider..... or you'll end up with a completely (first impression) wrong understanding of the verse, as well as the context.

 

[dev553344]

Dev, the history, or legend is that the Baptist preacher Elijah Craig is who first invented or discovered bourbon. The wedding feast you mentioned is interesting for the amount of water Jesus turned into wine -

His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” Now standing there were six stone water jars for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the chief steward.” So they took it. When the steward tasted the water that had become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now.” (John 2:5-10 NRSV)

Jesus turned 120-180 gallons of water into wine! It was surely wine, NOT grape juice as some try to claim because grape juice does not make anyone "drunk".

It can be that prohibiting alcohol use is counter-productive as was witnessed by the Al Capone types of years back. Prohibiting what the Bible does not prohibit may bring into play the old saying, "Forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest". Seems that Romans chapter 14 would come into play here.

In Bible days, distilled drinks did not exist, only wine and beer. But as to alcohol content, that depends on how much of any drink you consume -

Two shots = 3 oz of 40% or 80 proof alcohol gives 1.2 oz of pure alcohol

Two glasses of wine = 10 oz of 12% so that gives also 1.2 oz of pure alcohol

Two cans of beer = 24 oz of 5% so that gives also 1.2 oz of pure alcohol

Yes, sometimes I consume Smirnoff No 21 vodka on ice because it is filtered Ten Times, and has no additives to stir up my asthma. No, I am not telling anyone to do likewise, I'm just giving 'full disclosure' of my perspective. Years ago I read a study that claimed the prohibitionist churches had more problem with alcohol abusers than the more open minded Lutheran's and Anglicans on the this.

Thanks for your input. Yes I have also heard that prohibition churches are generating alcoholics when the children choose to drink. Here's something from Utah where the Mormons live:

"In a state where 60 percent of the residents are Mormons and Mormons shun alcohol, well, that just makes sense.
But how about this stat? Utah has the seventh-highest rate of alcohol poisoning deaths, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." The Utah Effect: the alcohol-related stat that will surprise you

 

[Arthur81]

"become drunk" is not a good translation.

Also, it probably took Jesus about 2 seconds to turn the water into wine.

Do you think Mary was "well Drunk" and Jesus also, before He did the miracle?

Sometimes you have to really consider all the ramifications of a verse, and, look at other translations, and pause and consider..... or you'll end up with a completely (first impression) wrong understanding of the verse, as well as the context.

The verse 10 itself makes it clear. The lousy wine is given after people have imbibed so much they'd not know the difference. But, if you wish to see other translations, that is fine -

and saith to him, 'Every man, at first, the good wine doth set forth; and when they may have drunk freely, then the inferior; thou didst keep the good wine till now.' (John 2:10 YLT)

and said to him, “Everyone else serves the best wine first, and after the guests have drunk a lot, he serves the ordinary wine. But you have kept the best wine until now!” (John 2:10 GNB92)

And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. (John 2:10 KJV)

I'll quote from -
"Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer, a German Protestant with a gift for languages, published the first commentary in this collection in 1832 at the age of thirty-two. Each volume focuses on the Greek text, and Meyer uses and discusses an abundance of sources and authors to illustrate meaning derived from the text. Meyer also likes to include important bibliographic material which was integral to his studies and research."

"ὅταν μεθυσθῶσι ] when they have become intoxicated , so that they can no longer appreciate the goodness of the wine. The word does not mean anything else; not when they have well drunk (Tholuck, De Wette, and several, e.g. Beza, Cornelius a Lapide, and others), because intoxication is the essential though relative conception (see also Genesis 43:34 ; Haggai 1:6 ; Revelation 17:2 )."

John 2 - Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 2, Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary focuses on the Greek text, using an abundance of sources and authors to illustrate meaning

www.studylight.org

How grateful I am that we have men of God from the past who actually know what they are talking about!

 

[Behold]

and saith to him, 'Every man, at first, the good wine doth set forth; and when they may have drunk freely, then the inferior; thou didst keep the good wine till now.' (John 2:10 YLT)

Thats a much better translation., as obviously Mary was not DRUNK< .. .nor was Jesus.

So, here is the thing..

Satan's Satanic Bible......have you read it @Arthur81 ? It teaches one "law".

"Do what tho WILT, shall be the whole of the Law".

or "live for today, as tomorrow we die"

or, "do what feels good, and that is why you are BORN".

See all that?

So, we have to be careful regarding how we use the Grace of God, ... on a personal level, and more importantly, we have to think ahead of what we teach, so that we are not teaching something that would not harm US< but would destroy a weak believer.

Notice this verse, Reader..

"""For if your brother/sister in the LORD... is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.'""

That verse means...

If you have freedom within your understanding of your own Salvation... that does not condemn you, when you choose to do certain things........ You have to be careful that you dont cause a weak believer to do the same deed, that to them, just crushes their soul, and blinds them with guilt and comdemnation... as how are you showing them love, if you dont consider that they are not like you, and so, you have to be careful of their faith, as it might not be as strong as yours.

 

[dev553344]

I also see that Utah has had an increase in alcohol related death from DUI since they changed their level to 0.05 from 0.07:

"I was skeptical at the time because the data was pretty compelling that those drivers between 0.05 BAC and the old limit of 0.07 were very rarely involved in fatal crashes — with just 35 fatal accidents in the 16-year span leading up to the passage of the law, and in 2/3 of those other factors like drugs and excessive speed were also in play."

...

"In the four years since the law took effect, 187 people died in alcohol-related crashes, up about 20% from before the law passed, and the last three years have been the highest on record."

Utah DUI deaths remained high in 2022. The 0.05 law hasn’t worked, Robert Gehrke writes.