Prove Practise of Worship of the Holy Spirit Is Biblical

[StanJ]

beyond a doubt it is a trinitarian response.....you removed the key word "trinitarian" from the question .....so you were not answering "my "question...you answered your version of the question...but that is not a problem...you guys do it all the time with scripture...now you are all over the place involving other people ...to shift focus away from what you did...

I don't see a problem at all newbirth, except in the way you equivocate and deflect/avoid direct questions. I doubt very much this is your first go round on the issue and I can assure you Oz and I KNOW what we are dealing with, if not who.

 

[newbirth]

I don't see a problem at all newbirth, except in the way you equivocate and deflect/avoid direct questions. I doubt very much this is your first go round on the issue and I can assure you Oz and I KNOW what we are dealing with, if not who.

of course you don't see a problem...I was asked if I believe in the trinitarian god...I said NO ....I asked where does scripture command us to believe in the trinitarian god....I cannot get a straight answer...and here you are telling me I equivocate and deflect/avoid direct questions....why don't you take a shot at the question....where does scripture command us to believe in a" trinitarian"god...

 

[Born_Again]

of course you don't see a problem...I was asked if I believe in the trinitarian god...I said NO ....I asked where does scripture command us to believe in the trinitarian god....I cannot get a straight answer...and here you are telling me I equivocate and deflect/avoid direct questions....why don't you take a shot at the question....where does scripture command us to believe in a" trinitarian"god...

If I may, why are you so adamant about proving this? What is the drive behind this? I'm just curious. Did the Trinitarian church wrong you in some way. I was Lutheran so I am very familiar with Trinitarian. I'm just wondering....

 

[newbirth]

When you don't read my post, you demonstrate ignorance of having a reasonable conversation. I dealt with your Unitarian god by addressing two questions that are coherent with one another.

1. Are we commanded to believe in God? Yes!
2. What is the nature of God we are commanded to believe in? The Trinitarian God of Unity and Trinity.

I directly answered your question but what have you done? You have given me a flick pass by your use of a red herring logical fallacy. This fallacy is when you decide not to deal with the issue I raised but to take the conversation in another direction. What you have done is engaged in avoidance of the fact that I DID ANSWER YOUR QUESTION but you DID NOT EXTEND TO ME THE COURTESY OF READING MY POST.

You have essentially told me: Don't waste your time in spending time on a response to newbirth because he can't be bothered with answering the issues I raise.

Newbirth, there is a place on CB where you can discuss your heretical view of God. It's called the Unorthodox forum. That's where you should be promoting your Unitarianism and not here on an orthodox Christian thread.

Oz

you missed the part where I asked ...where does scripture command us to believe in a trinitarian god???...let your yea be yea and your nay be nay...the scripture is not a jigsaw puzzle that you have to jumping all over to make a point...scripture is written with all points already made...and we confirm those point with other scripture...that is why we quote scripture...word for word....if Paul.Peter or John wanted to say trinity...three gods ,three in one or one in three ...three persons..God the Son ...God the Holy Spirit....they would have...but they did not...those phrases are not found in scripture....do not add to scripture...

 

[StanJ]

of course you don't see a problem...I was asked if I believe in the trinitarian god...I said NO ....I asked where does scripture command us to believe in the trinitarian god....I cannot get a straight answer...and here you are telling me I equivocate and deflect/avoid direct questions....why don't you take a shot at the question....where does scripture command us to believe in a" trinitarian"god...

It's not about commanding, it about revealing. If you only read God's word for commands, you miss the whole purpose of having a personal relationship with Christ. His word if how Christians arbitrate, but truth that exists in it is absolute and clear. You are stuck on the word Trinity and refuse to answer other questions about your beliefs that are also not in the scriptures verbatim. What you do is deny the truth by striving about a word. I suggest you read 2 Tim 2:14-15

 

[OzSpen]

you missed the part where I asked ...where does scripture command us to believe in a trinitarian god???...let your yea be yea and your nay be nay...the scripture is not a jigsaw puzzle that you have to jumping all over to make a point...scripture is written with all points already made...and we confirm those point with other scripture...that is why we quote scripture...word for word....if Paul.Peter or John wanted to say trinity...three gods ,three in one or one in three ...three persons..God the Son ...God the Holy Spirit....they would have...but they did not...those phrases are not found in scripture....do not add to scripture...

Not true, newbirth. I missed no part. I answered what you asked but you didn't extend to me the courtesy of reading what I wrote. But now you have the temerity to say, 'You missed the part where I asked'. How would you know what I missed when you have already told me that you didn't read my post?

I am most assuredly letting my yea be yea and nay be nay. I gave no jigsaw puzzle or 'jumping all over' to make my point. I have provided clear Scripture to demonstrate that the Trinitarian God is the one revealed in Scripture.

Instead, you are promoting the unitarian god of a heretical group such as the Ebionites of the early Christian era.

So you want Peter, Paul & John to use the word Trinity to agree with you? Do you want them to use inerrancy, infallibility, Easter and Christmas to satisfy the demands of some Christian?

I am NOT adding to Scripture. I'm examining the Scriptures to discern what is there. I do not find your unitarian view of god. This is what I do find:

The “Shield of the Trinity” or Scutum Fidei diagram of traditional Western Christian symbolism (courtesy Wikipedia)​

​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It's not about commanding, it about revealing. If you only read God's word for commands, you miss the whole purpose of having a personal relationship with Christ. His word if how Christians arbitrate, but truth that exists in it is absolute and clear. You are stuck on the word Trinity and refuse to answer other questions about your beliefs that are also not in the scriptures verbatim. What you do is deny the truth by striving about a word. I suggest you read 2 Tim 2:14-15

Well said, Stan. If we want to find the exact words, 'Jesus is God', we won't find them in Scripture. However, the teaching of John 1:1 (ESV), John 8:58 (ESV) and other Scriptures demonstrate the deity of Jesus, i.e. Jesus is God. Where do we find the word, 'Bible', in Scripture? How about Christmas and Easter? Where does Scripture state that 'the Bible is infallible'?

However, we can demonstrate these teachings from Scripture. It is being nit-picky to require exact words to our 21st century liking to be in Scripture. That's why I've been blessed by many teachers of systematic theology who have carefully examined the Scriptures to demonstrate the doctrines of the deity of Jesus, the Trinity, bibliology, what happened at the first Christmas, what happened at the first Easter, and the infallibility of Scripture. Those teachers have been Charles Hodge, John Miley, Wayne Grudem, Millard Erickson, Norman Geisler and especially Henry Thiessen.

In Jesus,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

beyond a doubt it is a trinitarian response.....you removed the key word "trinitarian" from the question .....so you were not answering "my "question...you answered your version of the question...but that is not a problem...you guys do it all the time with scripture...now you are all over the place involving other people ...to shift focus away from what you did...

I've already dealt with this at #76, but you don't want to accept what I wrote. Here it is again:

I dealt with your Unitarian god by addressing two questions that are coherent with one another.

1. Are we commanded to believe in God? Yes!
2. What is the nature of God we are commanded to believe in? The Trinitarian God of Unity and Trinity.

We cannot have a coherent conversation when you didn't read my exposition to defend the Trinity. You told me that you didn't read it, now you state, 'beyond a doubt it is a trinitarian response.....you removed the key word "trinitarian" from the question'. HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IT WAS A TRINITARIAN RESPONSE WHEN YOU TOLD ME YOU DIDN'T READ MY POST?

Of course it would be a demonstration of the Trinity because that is the God who is revealed in Scripture. It is yours that is not only the minority view, but it is the one that cannot be demonstrated from Scripture. As I've already shown (but you won't read my exposition - so you say - but I have my doubts), the Scriptures teach:

1. God is one (a unity)
2. God consists of three persons (a Trinity)
3. Those three persons are each God (as I demonstrated in my exposition, which you say you refused to read)

Oz

 

[newbirth]

It's not about commanding, it about revealing. If you only read God's word for commands, you miss the whole purpose of having a personal relationship with Christ. His word if how Christians arbitrate, but truth that exists in it is absolute and clear. You are stuck on the word Trinity and refuse to answer other questions about your beliefs that are also not in the scriptures verbatim. What you do is deny the truth by striving about a word. I suggest you read 2 Tim 2:14-15

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: so it is not about commanding...
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
so you have a personal relationship without keeping his commands????

yes His word is how we arbitrate....and His word does not say trinity... His word is is truth and cleat and does not say trinity...

what do I believe that are not in scripture?? quote it for me...
what is the truth I deny?...quote it also

 

[newbirth]

I've already dealt with this at #76, but you don't want to accept what I wrote. Here it is again:

I dealt with your Unitarian god by addressing two questions that are coherent with one another.

1. Are we commanded to believe in God? Yes!
2. What is the nature of God we are commanded to believe in? The Trinitarian God of Unity and Trinity.

We cannot have a coherent conversation when you didn't read my exposition to defend the Trinity. You told me that you didn't read it, now you state, 'beyond a doubt it is a trinitarian response.....you removed the key word "trinitarian" from the question'. HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IT WAS A TRINITARIAN RESPONSE WHEN YOU TOLD ME YOU DIDN'T READ MY POST?

Of course it would be a demonstration of the Trinity because that is the God who is revealed in Scripture. It is yours that is not only the minority view, but it is the one that cannot be demonstrated from Scripture. As I've already shown (but you won't read my exposition - so you say - but I have my doubts), the Scriptures teach:

1. God is one (a unity)
2. God consists of three persons (a Trinity)
3. Those three persons are each God (as I demonstrated in my exposition, which you say you refused to read)

Oz

1. 
   

   What is the nature of God we are commanded to believe in? The Trinitarian God of Unity and Trinity.

   where is that in scripture??? you made that up quote scripture for me don't make up things...
   

 

[newbirth]

If I may, why are you so adamant about proving this? What is the drive behind this? I'm just curious. Did the Trinitarian church wrong you in some way. I was Lutheran so I am very familiar with Trinitarian. I'm just wondering....

2 Corinthians 4:1-3King James Version (KJV)
4 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


we do not make truth ....the scripture is not to be used to make doctrine... the scripture is the doctrine

 

[newbirth]

Not true, newbirth. I missed no part. I answered what you asked but you didn't extend to me the courtesy of reading what I wrote. But now you have the temerity to say, 'You missed the part where I asked'. How would you know what I missed when you have already told me that you didn't read my post?

I am most assuredly letting my yea be yea and nay be nay. I gave no jigsaw puzzle or 'jumping all over' to make my point. I have provided clear Scripture to demonstrate that the Trinitarian God is the one revealed in Scripture.

Instead, you are promoting the unitarian god of a heretical group such as the Ebionites of the early Christian era.

So you want Peter, Paul & John to use the word Trinity to agree with you? Do you want them to use inerrancy, infallibility, Easter and Christmas to satisfy the demands of some Christian?

I am NOT adding to Scripture. I'm examining the Scriptures to discern what is there. I do not find your unitarian view of god. This is what I do find:

The “Shield of the Trinity” or Scutum Fidei diagram of traditional Western Christian symbolism (courtesy Wikipedia)​

​

Oz

what is your point??? you are making doctrine....christmas is a make up doctrine easter is used once in scripture not as scriptural doctrine...
where did you find that ...it is a make up doctrine...

 

[newbirth]

Well said, Stan. If we want to find the exact words, 'Jesus is God', we won't find them in Scripture. However, the teaching of John 1:1 (ESV), John 8:58 (ESV) and other Scriptures demonstrate the deity of Jesus, i.e. Jesus is God. Where do we find the word, 'Bible', in Scripture? How about Christmas and Easter? Where does Scripture state that 'the Bible is infallible'?

However, we can demonstrate these teachings from Scripture. It is being nit-picky to require exact words to our 21st century liking to be in Scripture. That's why I've been blessed by many teachers of systematic theology who have carefully examined the Scriptures to demonstrate the doctrines of the deity of Jesus, the Trinity, bibliology, what happened at the first Christmas, what happened at the first Easter, and the infallibility of Scripture. Those teachers have been Charles Hodge, John Miley, Wayne Grudem, Millard Erickson, Norman Geisler and especially Henry Thiessen.

In Jesus,
Oz

you use those terms as if they were in scripture...I do not use them as a quote from scripture.....but you have to quote scripture not give your opinion...
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

the only way that can happen is if we say what scripture says....this is what you say......
That's why I've been blessed by many teachers of systematic theology

this is what scripture say...
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

now who is the better teacher????

 

[StanJ]

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: so it is not about commanding...
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
so you have a personal relationship without keeping his commands????

yes His word is how we arbitrate....and His word does not say trinity... His word is is truth and cleat and does not say trinity...

what do I believe that are not in scripture?? quote it for me...
what is the truth I deny?...quote it also

You're still 'striving' about a word.

Acts 17:29-31 (IN CONTEXT)
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

John 14:15-21 (IN CONTEXT)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

The Greek word in Acts 17:30 (NIV) is παραγγέλλω (parangellō), which connotes; to announce, notify; to command, direct, charge.
Not all versions use 'command', but then not all readers of the Bible look at it through their dogmatic teaching.

Now in John 14:15 (NIV), the Greek is ἐντολή (entolē), which connotes; an injunction; a precept, commandment, law, an order, direction, an edict, a direction, a commission, a charge of matters to be proclaimed or received.
What I find interesting here is that you don't see the deity of God in Jesus, but you apparently accept that His commands are to be kept as if emanating from God. This must effect your cognitive dissonance to a certain degree ignoring the truth therein?

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to explain why you accept the Omni attributes of God that are NOT worded as such in the scriptures.
It would also be great if you could also explain to us what Jesus meant in John 8:58 (NIV), when the Jews challenged Him to His claim to deity?

 

[OzSpen]

1. 
   where is that in scripture??? you made that up quote scripture for me don't make up things...
   

You are not listening!

 

[OzSpen]

what is your point??? you are making doctrine....christmas is a make up doctrine easter is used once in scripture not as scriptural doctrine...
where did you find that ...it is a make up doctrine...

I have provided some of the evidence from Scripture. However, you continue not to listen to the scriptural demonstration I provide.

 

[newbirth]

You're still 'striving' about a word.

Acts 17:29-31 (IN CONTEXT)
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

John 14:15-21 (IN CONTEXT)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

The Greek word in Acts 17:30 (NIV) is παραγγέλλω (parangellō), which connotes; to announce, notify; to command, direct, charge.
Not all versions use 'command', but then not all readers of the Bible look at it through their dogmatic teaching.

Now in John 14:15 (NIV), the Greek is ἐντολή (entolē), which connotes; an injunction; a precept, commandment, law, an order, direction, an edict, a direction, a commission, a charge of matters to be proclaimed or received.
What I find interesting here is that you don't see the deity of God in Jesus, but you apparently accept that His commands are to be kept as if emanating from God. This must effect your cognitive dissonance to a certain degree ignoring the truth therein?

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to explain why you accept the Omni attributes of God that are NOT worded as such in the scriptures.
It would also be great if you could also explain to us what Jesus meant in John 8:58 (NIV), when the Jews challenged Him to His claim to deity?

that word is what you mislead the masses with.....

it was you who said it is not about commands....the context is they are commands....
I accept what the scripture says...if you choose another word to mean what the scripture say that is fine...if however you choose a word that does not mean what scripture says there is a problem.......scripture says there is one God...fine I think we both agree on that...scripture says God is one....you say God is three...we have a problem there.. so I will ask you to present a word or phrase in scripture that means God is three ......if you can provide such then we can continue our discussion..
What does John 8:58 have to do with the trinity???

 

[newbirth]

I have provided some of the evidence from Scripture. However, you continue not to listen to the scriptural demonstration I provide.

you have provided your opinion of the scripture.....quote the scripture

 

[StanJ]

you have provided your opinion of the scripture.....quote the scripture

Tit-for-tat pal...show us where the scripture says He isn't triune. You've been shown plenty that convey God and Jesus are one and the same.

 

[newbirth]

Tit-for-tat pal...show us where the scripture says He isn't triune. You've been shown plenty that convey God and Jesus are one and the same.

scripture does not have the word triune...How can I show you if it is not in scripture??? But I can show you what is in scripture...
Galatians 3:20
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

scripture says God is one....it follows he is not triune...