Pseudo Messiah

[veteran]

One of the most important prophecies given in God's Word for the end of days is the coming of a particular false or pseudo messiah in place our Lord Jesus Christ. It is that specific event of a false one coming that's able to work great signs and wonders on earth in the sight of men, and mistaking him for our Lord Jesus which will hinge whether Christ will receive us at His coming, or will shut the door on us like the five foolish virgins of Matt.25.


Matt 24:15-31
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

The abomination of desolation prophecy from the Book of Daniel is specifically about the coming of a particular false messiah, and the setting up of idol worship in Jerusalem. Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 B.C. served as a pattern for that future coming false messiah, except Antiochus did not do the "great signs and wonders" our Lord Jesus spoke of, as also His Apostles warned us of. In Rev.13:11 we are shown there the "another beast" associated with the "dragon" who will work "great wonders", making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in sight of men. It is that second beast, an entity, that is to setup an idol image to the beast for all the world to worship.

That is who our Lord Jesus was warning us of here in Matthew 24 within His prophecy for the end while with His disciples upon the Mount of Olives.

In these Matt.24 verses our Lord is warning those of His in that area of Jerusalem to get out of that area when that abomination is setup. This event was not about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem, for this false messiah Christ warns of here did not appear then. And it is especially about the appearance of a false messiah working those great signs and wonders there.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Our Lord Jesus refers to this event with the blessed are the barren metaphor first given in Isaiah 54. It is about the idea of spiritual harlotry in false worship, bowing to another in His place, instead of Him. It is about bowing in worship to a false one, a particular false messiah that sets up the image of the beast for all the world to worship (Rev.13). If one refuses to bow in false worship, they remain 'barren' in the spiritual sense, without child spiritually. That's how we are to remain all the way up to Christ's return, as a chaste virgin bethrothed to Christ; as a bride waiting for His wedding.

The idea of being "with child" when that abomination idol is setup is not about being literally pregnant. It's about being spiritually pregnated with a lie that causes the deceived to accept that false one in place of our Lord Jesus. Apostle Paul gave this warning from that Isaiah 54 metaphor also in 2 Corinthians 11, when he said he 'espoused' us to one Husband (Christ), and that we are to remain "a chaste virgin", waiting on Christ's return. In that 2 Cor.11 chapter, Apostle Paul also warned of the "another Jesus", being afraid that many might accept him in place of Christ. He also showed how Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as ministers of righteousness.

In Luke 23 when our Lord was carrying His cross to be crucified, the women of Jerusalem wept. Then He turned to them and told them not to weep for Him, but for theirselves and for their children, for the day would come when 'they' would say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck." (Luke 23:29). Then 'they' (the deceived) will want the mountains and hills to fall upon them, to cover their shame. Why? To hide from Christ at His coming when He discovers they fell away from Him, and instead bowed to the false messiah in His stead.

This is what our Lord Jesus was pointing to with the end of days with that Matt.24:19 warning of those with child that give suck. He was pointing to this spiritual metaphor about false worship, for false worship is the subject here involving that abomination from the Book of Daniel.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

Our Lord is specific that abomination event will accompany a time of "great tribulation", a time of trouble that has never been the likes on earth before, and never will be again. In that time He warns that if anyone comes up to you and says something like, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", don't you believe it. Why would He say that?

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This phrase "false Christs" is actually the sole Greek word 'pseudochristos', made up of two Greek words, 'pseudo' and 'Christos'. The Greek word 'Christos' is singular in the Greek. And the Greek word 'pseudo' means false, fake. The literal translation is 'a pseudo Christ'.

Within that warning, our Lord Jesus reveals just how powerful a work of deception that particular pseudo Christ will work, for there's those "great signs and wonders" that false one will do like the another beast of Rev.13 is to do. It will be so deceptive that working would almost... deceive Christ's own elect. And if His elect are almost deceived by that pseudo Christ, what does that mean for those spiritually deceived?

The majority will bow to that pseudo Christ instead, becoming spiritual harlots, not remaining "a chaste virgin" waiting on Christ's return. Those in Christ are NOT to be in that number. Yet we know some brethren will mistakedly bow anyway, and be joined among the five foolish virgins who refuse to listen to our Lord's warning about this matter.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

To emphasize this point, our Lord Jesus gives this warning about the pseudo Christ again. If the deceived begin to say, "Behold, He is in the desert", don't go after him; if they say, "behold, He is in the secret chambers," do not believe it.

The deceived are going to be saying Christ has returned before our Lord Jesus has actually returned. And those "great signs and wonders" that pseudo Christ will work is going to make the deceived believe Christ has returned.

At the end of Luke 17, Christ mentioned about two grinding at the mill, one taken and the other left. His disciples then asked Him to 'where'? Our Lord answered with this metaphor of wheresoever the body is, that's where the eagles will be gathered. But here, the word is "carcase", meaning a dead body. That's about the deceived who will refuse this warning from our Lord Jesus, and instead will go after that pseudo Christ instead. That will make them spiritually dead.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus gives the sign of 'how' He comes in contrast to how that pseudo Christ comes. NONE will mistake the event of Christ's return. But many will mistake the coming of the pseudo Christ. We are not to mistake it.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul also gave this warning about this pseudo Christ when he showed a time of great falling away, when the "son of perdition" and "man of sin" comes to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That is Paul's version of this very same warning our Lord Jesus gave about a coming pseudo Christ.

And not just any false Christ, but a specific one with the power to work "great signs and wonders" on earth to deceive the whole world with. As of today, there has NEVER appeared on earth any man that had the power to do that level of deception upon the whole earth. Because of our Lord's warning to the women in Jerusalem in Luke 17, the pseudo Christ is to especially deceive the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem. For refusing Christ Jesus of Nazareth, God is going to send them a messiah, but it won't be the one they are stil expecting today. Those in Christ Jesus are not to be deceived by that coming event in our near future.

Based on what your Church is teaching about the end times, I strongly suggest each believer to weigh this matter today, and compare how your Church is covering this future event. Are they teaching something else instead that gets your mind away... from our Lord's warning about this particular pseudo Christ that is to come?

 

[Vengle53]

One of the most important prophecies given in God's Word for the end of days is the coming of a particular false or pseudo messiah in place our Lord Jesus Christ. It is that specific event of a false one coming that's able to work great signs and wonders on earth in the sight of men, and mistaking him for our Lord Jesus which will hinge whether Christ will receive us at His coming, or will shut the door on us like the five foolish virgins of Matt.25.


Matt 24:15-31
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

The abomination of desolation prophecy from the Book of Daniel is specifically about the coming of a particular false messiah, and the setting up of idol worship in Jerusalem. Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 B.C. served as a pattern for that future coming false messiah, except Antiochus did not do the "great signs and wonders" our Lord Jesus spoke of, as also His Apostles warned us of. In Rev.13:11 we are shown there the "another beast" associated with the "dragon" who will work "great wonders", making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in sight of men. It is that second beast, an entity, that is to setup an idol image to the beast for all the world to worship.

That is who our Lord Jesus was warning us of here in Matthew 24 within His prophecy for the end while with His disciples upon the Mount of Olives.

In these Matt.24 verses our Lord is warning those of His in that area of Jerusalem to get out of that area when that abomination is setup. This event was not about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem, for this false messiah Christ warns of here did not appear then. And it is especially about the appearance of a false messiah working those great signs and wonders there.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Our Lord Jesus refers to this event with the blessed are the barren metaphor first given in Isaiah 54. It is about the idea of spiritual harlotry in false worship, bowing to another in His place, instead of Him. It is about bowing in worship to a false one, a particular false messiah that sets up the image of the beast for all the world to worship (Rev.13). If one refuses to bow in false worship, they remain 'barren' in the spiritual sense, without child spiritually. That's how we are to remain all the way up to Christ's return, as a chaste virgin bethrothed to Christ; as a bride waiting for His wedding.

The idea of being "with child" when that abomination idol is setup is not about being literally pregnant. It's about being spiritually pregnated with a lie that causes the deceived to accept that false one in place of our Lord Jesus. Apostle Paul gave this warning from that Isaiah 54 metaphor also in 2 Corinthians 11, when he said he 'espoused' us to one Husband (Christ), and that we are to remain "a chaste virgin", waiting on Christ's return. In that 2 Cor.11 chapter, Apostle Paul also warned of the "another Jesus", being afraid that many might accept him in place of Christ. He also showed how Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as ministers of righteousness.

In Luke 23 when our Lord was carrying His cross to be crucified, the women of Jerusalem wept. Then He turned to them and told them not to weep for Him, but for theirselves and for their children, for the day would come when 'they' would say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck." (Luke 23:29). Then 'they' (the deceived) will want the mountains and hills to fall upon them, to cover their shame. Why? To hide from Christ at His coming when He discovers they fell away from Him, and instead bowed to the false messiah in His stead.

This is what our Lord Jesus was pointing to with the end of days with that Matt.24:19 warning of those with child that give suck. He was pointing to this spiritual metaphor about false worship, for false worship is the subject here involving that abomination from the Book of Daniel.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

Our Lord is specific that abomination event will accompany a time of "great tribulation", a time of trouble that has never been the likes on earth before, and never will be again. In that time He warns that if anyone comes up to you and says something like, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", don't you believe it. Why would He say that?

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This phrase "false Christs" is actually the sole Greek word 'pseudochristos', made up of two Greek words, 'pseudo' and 'Christos'. The Greek word 'Christos' is singular in the Greek. And the Greek word 'pseudo' means false, fake. The literal translation is 'a pseudo Christ'.

Within that warning, our Lord Jesus reveals just how powerful a work of deception that particular pseudo Christ will work, for there's those "great signs and wonders" that false one will do like the another beast of Rev.13 is to do. It will be so deceptive that working would almost... deceive Christ's own elect. And if His elect are almost deceived by that pseudo Christ, what does that mean for those spiritually deceived?

The majority will bow to that pseudo Christ instead, becoming spiritual harlots, not remaining "a chaste virgin" waiting on Christ's return. Those in Christ are NOT to be in that number. Yet we know some brethren will mistakedly bow anyway, and be joined among the five foolish virgins who refuse to listen to our Lord's warning about this matter.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

To emphasize this point, our Lord Jesus gives this warning about the pseudo Christ again. If the deceived begin to say, "Behold, He is in the desert", don't go after him; if they say, "behold, He is in the secret chambers," do not believe it.

The deceived are going to be saying Christ has returned before our Lord Jesus has actually returned. And those "great signs and wonders" that pseudo Christ will work is going to make the deceived believe Christ has returned.

At the end of Luke 17, Christ mentioned about two grinding at the mill, one taken and the other left. His disciples then asked Him to 'where'? Our Lord answered with this metaphor of wheresoever the body is, that's where the eagles will be gathered. But here, the word is "carcase", meaning a dead body. That's about the deceived who will refuse this warning from our Lord Jesus, and instead will go after that pseudo Christ instead. That will make them spiritually dead.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus gives the sign of 'how' He comes in contrast to how that pseudo Christ comes. NONE will mistake the event of Christ's return. But many will mistake the coming of the pseudo Christ. We are not to mistake it.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul also gave this warning about this pseudo Christ when he showed a time of great falling away, when the "son of perdition" and "man of sin" comes to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That is Paul's version of this very same warning our Lord Jesus gave about a coming pseudo Christ.

And not just any false Christ, but a specific one with the power to work "great signs and wonders" on earth to deceive the whole world with. As of today, there has NEVER appeared on earth any man that had the power to do that level of deception upon the whole earth. Because of our Lord's warning to the women in Jerusalem in Luke 17, the pseudo Christ is to especially deceive the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem. For refusing Christ Jesus of Nazareth, God is going to send them a messiah, but it won't be the one they are stil expecting today. Those in Christ Jesus are not to be deceived by that coming event in our near future.

Based on what your Church is teaching about the end times, I strongly suggest each believer to weigh this matter today, and compare how your Church is covering this future event. Are they teaching something else instead that gets your mind away... from our Lord's warning about this particular pseudo Christ that is to come?

What we do not want to miss is that the true church is the true body of Christ functioning in the stead of Christ in this earth. I will not spell it out but I will leave it to discernment:

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. ...............
10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The church is "many members in one body" and "one spirit". (Romans 12:4; 1 Corinthians 6:17; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:18; Ephesians 4:4; Philippians 1:27 )

These "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ" are also one body and one spirit. "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

This is also why the Antichrist is spoken of both singularly and plural at different times, even as the Church is spoken of both singularly and plural. This is why it is imporant to distinguish between singular and plural pronouns in the Biblical text.

 

[veteran]

This is also why the Antichrist is spoken of both singularly and plural at different times, even as the Church is spoken of both singularly and plural. This is why it is imporant to distinguish between singular and plural pronouns in the Biblical text.

If you mean God's Word shows working of both, A SINGULAR ANTICHRIST, and the idea of MANY ANTICHRISTS, then I would agree.

As for the idea that there is NO SINGULAR ANTICHRIST entity, then I would NOT AGREE.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, it's about a SINGULAR ENTITY.

In Matt.24:26-29, it's about a SINGULAR ENTITY, MAINLY because of the subject context where Jesus is showing a particular 'pseudochristos'.

In Rev.9 about Abaddon and Apollyon, it's about a SINGULAR ENTITY.

In Rev.13:11 forward with the "another beast", it's about a SINGULAR ENTITY.

 

[Rach1370]

I think when you hypothesized that the woe of being "with child" means to be "spiritually impregnated" was kinda a stretch. It quite simply states that to be pregnant or breast feeding at such a perilous time will be horrible. As a mother I know this to be true. The thought of not being able to properly protect my baby is a nightmare for me. Whenever this passage refers to; be it the siege and downfall of Jerusalem or intended for the Last Days, perhaps even both, can you imagine mothers - held back from dropping everything and running, desperate to save their children.
I think perhaps you're reading into this statement and trying to stuff another meaning into it when what it says is fairly straight forward.
Just a thought.

 

[veteran]

I think when you hypothesized that the woe of being "with child" means to be "spiritually impregnated" was kinda a stretch. It quite simply states that to be pregnant or breast feeding at such a perilous time will be horrible. As a mother I know this to be true. The thought of not being able to properly protect my baby is a nightmare for me. Whenever this passage refers to; be it the siege and downfall of Jerusalem or intended for the Last Days, perhaps even both, can you imagine mothers - held back from dropping everything and running, desperate to save their children.
I think perhaps you're reading into this statement and trying to stuff another meaning into it when what it says is fairly straight forward.
Just a thought.

That's OK. I understand what you mean, and I understand how it serving as a symbolic metaphor of warning against false worship can also be confusing. But it's not something I'm reading into the Scripture, nor a stretch of my imagination. It is a parable written in God's Word, particularly in the Book of Isaiah. I admonish you to go over the metaphor again in direct relation to the 'type' of events our Lord Jesus is warning about in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Lot of those events He forewarned are about falling away to false worship. Please bear with me on this.


Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.' "
(KJV)

That idea of "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare..." our Lord quoted from Isaiah 54. Think about why He said that there, for women giving birth to children is a blessed thing per God's Word. Yet note what our Lord Jesus quoted there with "blessed are the wombs that never bare"? That's the direct opposite meaning of a woman being blessed in childbirth. That's why it is pointing to a parable, or spiritual metaphor.

Our Lord Jesus gave many such parables in His Word which are simply used as a teaching tool, like an anaology or allegory. (Don't put new wine into old bottles lest they break is another example of our Lord teaching using parable. His intention was not a lesson about literal wine and bottles, but what He used them to represent.)
In Luke 23 He is quoting a parable from Isaiah 54 which is the direct opposite idea of a woman with child being blessed. That AUTOMATICALLY should get our attention, so as to know He is just USING that idea to teach a much more important literal truth. The goal is to understand what literal truth He was really teaching, just like with His other parables. So it's not that difficult to know He was giving a parable, if we simply pay close attention to what He said.

And in that Luke 23 example, He was telling those women in Jerusalem who wept at His carrying the cross to be crucified, to not weep for Him, but for theirselves, and for their children, for the days would come that 'they' would say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare...". And further, those same ones who will say that will also then say for the mountains to, "Fall on us", and to the hills, "Cover us." What is that idea about that will say that "Fall on us" and "Cover us"?

It's about those who fall to false worship...

Hosea 10:8
8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us.
(KJV)

The Hebrew word Aven means 'vaniity', and is about idol worship. That idea is about those who fall to idol worship, and in time they will feel shame in doing it, which is the idea in their wanting the mountains to, "Fall on us", and for the hills, "Cover us."

What specific time is it when that will happen, when they will say that?

Isa 2:19-21
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
(KJV)

That's about the timing of Christ's return. Those who fell to idol worship will cast their idols in the trash. And that's when they will feel shame, and will want to literally hide out of shame, and will seek to hide from Christ's Presence.


Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

There it is again, the deceived in idol worship wanting to hide from Christ when He appears the second time. The idea of their wanting for the mountains and hills to cover them is about hiding their shame in His Presence when He returns. It's an expression of great shame and guilt.


Now the parable our Lord Jesus was quoting from in Isaiah 54...

Isa 54:1-13
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Those who did not bear sing in joy? How's that? Then especially note the underlined phrase, "...for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife...". HOW can a woman who's womb remains barren and desolate have MORE children than the married wife? That does not make sense in reality, so what kind of meaning is this pointing to? A PARABLE, not literal childbirth or pregnancy.

A barren woman that is not married in the Biblical sense is what? A virgin. The meaning of the parable is in connection with what Paul was teaching in 2 Cor.11 that we are 'espoused' to one Husband (Christ Jesus). That of course, is in the spiritual sense. No one is literally espoused to Christ in the literal flesh sense. This is why our Lord Jesus used the parable of virgins to apply to His saints that REMAIN chaste in waiting for His return (remember the wedding and bride of Christ idea?).

So, what is the OPPOSITE of remaing "a chaste virgin" per the parable?

The opposite is to be found not a chaste virgin when Christ does return, and instead be found married (in the spiritual sense) to ANOTHER HUSBAND INSTEAD OF CHRIST. If we are spiritually espoused to "one Husband" like Paul said, then what would it mean to be found spiritually married to another when our True Husband (Christ) does return? It's the idea in God's Word of the spiritual harlot. And it's about falling away from Christ to go into idol worship. God sees us as marrying another spiritually if we worship idols. God even gives this idea about spiritual harlotry and His spiritual marrying Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16 and Revelation 21.

Isa.54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

That is about Christ's future Salvation in the holy land. Israel is to enlarge its tent to include believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus. THAT is how the unmarried spiritual virgin, the one whose paps never gave such, whose womb remaing barren, will have MORE children than the married wife. The married wife in the parable represents a spiritual harlot Christ finds already wedded to another in false worship when He returns. This parable is applied spiritually both to God's people, and to the area of Jerusalem in God's Word.


Isa.54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

When Christ's Salvation comes to Jerusalem, those spiritual virgins who remain chaste waiting for Him, will no longer suffer their "widowhood", nor the reproach of this world, nor be ashamed or confounded any more. Who will... be ashamed though? The spiritual harlot that did not wait on Christ. That's the decieved ones in Luke 23 that will be saying after Christ's return about these chaste virgins whose wombs never bare, "Blessed are the barren...". That's why the deceived will be in shame, wanting the mountains and hills to fall on them, to hide from the face of The Lamb Jesus Christ.


Isa.54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is His name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall He be called.
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but My kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of My peace be removed, saith the LORD That hath mercy on thee.
(KJV)

There it is, "For thy Maker is thine husband". That's where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 2 Cor.11 about our being espoused to one Husband (Christ Jesus). He also said he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin", and not be seduced as Eve was by the serpent.


So with that understanding, reading the Luke 21 example again... is our Lord Jesus saying a lot more there? Yes.

Luke 21:22-23
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(KJV)

The "days of vengeance" is NOT about the great tribulation itself. It is about the event of Christ's return and His wrath upon those who fall to false worship. In Isaiah 61:1-2, the first portion down to the last two phrases of verse 2 are about Christ's first coming. But the very last two phrases of "the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that morn" is about Christ's second coming and the pouring out of God's cup of wrath upon the wicked. His wrath in that time is not upon His saints that remain chaste virgins waiting for Him.

I'm sorry you have missed this very important parable from our Heavenly Father's Word. I have personally never heard it taught to this depth in the Churches. Yet it is very much a major part of God's Word, and was given as a parable because meaning of a parable can give a whole lot more in teaching than just a few simple words.

And most importantly, once we grasp the meaning of a parable our Lord gave, we then have no doubts as to what His main Message in it is about. God uses this method of teaching by parable and metaphor in His Word a whole... lot. And the objects in the parable are always related to simple objects and everyday subjects we all should be very familiar with.

 

[Rach1370]

Hey veteran. I read your post, and I did consider what you said. But I'm sorry, I just don't see that Isaiah 54 says what you think it does.
I believe that it talks of God preparing His people to prepare for the future. That the old covenant people of God, who failed to bless the world, were like a barren woman. Under the new covenant, God's people become the mother of a growing family.
The previous chapter, 53, talks of Jesus, of the new covenant coming, how the Messiah will suffer for our transgressions.
Then in 54 we see that the everlasting love of God will heal all his people's sorrows, if they will enter in now on the terms of his glorious grace. The heading of this chapter is after all The Eternal Covenant of Peace.
Again we see this passage in Galatians 4:27 and contextually it talks of all those who believe in Christ belong to the heavenly Jerusalem and are the true Israel. As Isaiah prophesied, the exile did not spell the end for the people of God. God will again work supernaturally to bring about the (new) birth of children where there are none, even among the Gentiles.

So we see the joy of the 'childless' because she knows God will restore her 'children'. In fact the number of her 'children' will grow! In Isaiah it talks of .."enlarge your tent", and we see in the new covenant how the Church does grow!

I do realise that parables are important, but I can't quite see how this is in any of the parables that Jesus told. Isaiah is largely prophetic, which can be highly symbolic, but again, I can't see it saying what you think it does. He then says "Blessed are the barren"

As far as Luke 23, when Jesus speaks to the crying women I believe that the the sympathetic mourning and lamenting of the women leads Jesus to quote from the prophet Zechariah (see Zech. 12:10–14). When Jesus refers to "the days are coming" (Luke 19:43; 21:6, 22–24.) he talks of other times He has warned of the terrible days ahead; be it the fall of Jerusalem or future events. He then says "Blessed are the barren". (See 21:23.) In those days, the “reproach” of childlessness (see 1:25) will be a blessing. Then the leaders of this world will cry out "Fall on us". This is a request (see Hos. 10:8; Rev. 6:16) to be put out of their misery. They fear the wrath of God and seek to hide themselves.

So really, again, I cannot see how any of this would lead us to presume that the unfortunate tragedy of being with child (in womb or small baby) during a time of war, or the time of the end, would be 'spiritual' and not factual.

 

[veteran]

So how would you interpret the following verse, especially the underlined part?

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one Husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
(KJV)





Also, how would you interpret this...


Ezek 23:1-49
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:
3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,
6 Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.
7 Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.
8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.
9 Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.
10 These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.
11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.
12 She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.
13 Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,
14 And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,
15 Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:
16 And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.
17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;
23 The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.
24 And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.
25 And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.
26 They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.
27 Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto them, nor remember Egypt any more.
28 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:
29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
30 I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.
31 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.
32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
35 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast forgotten me, and cast me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
36 The LORD said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;
37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.
38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.
39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.
40 And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,
41 And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil.
42 And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.
43 Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?
44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.
45 And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.
46 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.
47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
48 Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.
49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

 

[Rach1370]

Hey veteren. I do hope you're not getting cranky with me. As I said, I just don't read these passages like you do. What I'm doing here is simply discussing it, ok?

You asked:
"So how would you interpret the following verse, especially the underlined part?

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one Husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
(KJV) "

And I would say that the very next verse helps me understand and interpret it. Verse 3 says: [3] But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
(2 Corinthians 11:3 ESV)
The Jewish tradition involved a father organising a betrothal for his daughter. It was the father's duty to make certain, after promising his child to another man, that she came to the wedding pure; a virgin, that she had not betrayed her intended with another man. This passage is Paul saying that like a father (of the church) he felt it was his goal, his responsibility to make sure the church reached its intended Christ, without 'dallying' with other men (or false idols).

As for the Ezekiel 23 passage (I won't re-post it for sake of brevity) I would say that it talks of when Israel did stray from its true husband and God. The whole passage is a metaphor for the religious fidelity and worship of Israel; Jerusalem and Samaria. We see how they did not stay pure, but 'whored' itself out to Idols and therefore became impure, and was justly punished by such betrayal by its true and righteous husband.

I do know the point your trying to make veteran, but I still believe that the passage in Matt, about how horrible it would be to be pregnant during such times, means exactly that. I don't believe that it is metaphorical, or a parable. I believe Jesus was recounting a time of great horror, and knowing the despair and hardship of the mothers, he said exactly that.

Again, I'm not jumping up and down yelling, 'you're wrong!", I'm just saying that I disagree! I'm happy to continue discussing it, but I just want to make sure you're ok with it too!

 

[veteran]

Well, there it is then.

You're not making me angry. And it's OK that you disagree. You have that right. But as for trying to prove my interpretation of such Scripture is a far reach, you won't be able to prove that either. So the conversion had gone through its usefulness. I recommend you just put those Scripture metaphors on a shelf, until the time comes when God sees fit to help you understand it.

 

[Rach1370]

Well, thats kinda the point huh? I may as well say the same thing to you! You believe your right, and I think I'm right...and you know what? As long as we both love Jesus, does it matter?
I very much enjoy discussing these things here, as it helps me dig deeper into meanings found in my bible...so nothing lost huh!

 

[veteran]

Well, here's God's Message He gave in Ezekiel 23 a parable about two spiritual harlots...for those interested.

Ezek 23:1-49
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:
3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were Mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

God says the two women Aholah and Aholibah belonged to Him, and they committed whoredoms in Egypt in their youth.

He says Aholah is Samaria, and Aholibah is Jerusalem. After God split Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 forward, Jerusalem became the capital city of the "house of Judah" (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). Samaria became the capital city of the northern kingdom of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes of Israel).

So His Message here is about the two houses of God's people of Israel and their lands where the capital of their kingdoms were. It's about two separate houses of Israel after the split, and that's why God refers to them as sisters, Aholah as the elder, and Aholibah her sister.

5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was Mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,
6 Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.
7 Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.
8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.
9 Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.

Aholah is Samaria, the capital city of the ten tribed kingdom of the house of Israel. The ten tribes fell into idol worship first, under king Jeroboam. God removed them out of the land by the hand of the kings of Assyria, and took them to Assyria and the lands of the Medes (2 Kings 16-17).

10 These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.

The king of Assyria conquered the house of Israel (ten tribes) and Samaria, and took them all away, and transplanted peoples from Babylon into the land in their place.


11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.
12 She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.
13 Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,
14 And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,
15 Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:
16 And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.
17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then My mind was alienated from her, like as My mind was alienated from her sister.
19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;
23 The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.
24 And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.
25 And I will set My jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.
26 They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.
27 Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto them, nor remember Egypt any more.
28 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:
29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
30 I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.
31 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.
32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
35 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast forgotten Me, and cast Me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

All of that section of verses above is about Jerusalem and the house of Judah as Aholibah. After Aholah (Samaria-ten tribes) had fallen to idol worship, the house of Judah at Jerusalem then did the same around 120 years later. The house of Judah was taken captive to Babylon for 70 years for their falling away from God to do idol worship. So God scattered the house of Judah like He had done to the house of Israel (Samaria). In all this, God compares their falling to false worship to what a harlot does, but in the spiritual sense.


36 The LORD said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;
37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto Me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.
38 Moreover this they have done unto Me: they have defiled My sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned My sabbaths.
39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into My sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of Mine house.

Judah even practised paganism of sacrificing their children in the fire (Jer.19 with Tophet). And then the same day they went into the temple to worship God as if they'd done nothing wrong.

40 And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,
41 And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set Mine incense and Mine oil.

These descriptions God uses is so to get our attention of how He feels about His people Israel falling away from Him into idol worship of the nations. He's using images of a harlot that bathes, puts on harlot makeup and jewels, and then sits upon a bed with incense and oil on the table in preparation for her lovers. It's a graphic description, and it's meant to be.

42 And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.
43 Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?
44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.
45 And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.
46 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.
47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
48 Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.
49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

Per the Old Covenant, one of the penalties for adultery was stoning. They were to be judged as one who commits murder. This is all in the spiritual sense with the idea of a harlot. It's about God's people in OT times that went spiritually whoring after idols, and forgot our Heavenly Father.

Our Lord Jesus still feels this same way if we go a spiritually whoring to another instead of Him, and is why He used the idea of spiritual virgins in Matt.25, and why Apostle Paul used the metaphor of wanting to present us as "a chaste virgin" to our true Husband Jesus Christ. This spiritual harlotry metaphor is ultimately culminated in the end of days with the coming of the final antichrist who will deceive many into thinking he is our Lord Jesus. Paul referred to the antichrist as the "another Jesus" in 2 Cor.11, pointing to this event in the last days involving spiritual harlotry to him instead of staying on Christ and waiting for His return. This is also why our Lord Jesus would warn in Rev.16 about keeping one's garmets lest one walks naked and they see one's shame. And to emphasize this idea, He even uses the idea of the Babylon Harlot of Rev.17 with one decked out in scarlet and jewels to show Jerusalem's role in that future false messiah harlotry.

 

[Vengle53]

If you mean God's Word shows working of both, A SINGULAR ANTICHRIST, and the idea of MANY ANTICHRISTS, then I would agree.

As for the idea that there is NO SINGULAR ANTICHRIST entity, then I would NOT AGREE.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, it's about a SINGULAR ENTITY.

In Matt.24:26-29, it's about a SINGULAR ENTITY, MAINLY because of the subject context where Jesus is showing a particular 'pseudochristos'.

In Rev.9 about Abaddon and Apollyon, it's about a SINGULAR ENTITY.

In Rev.13:11 forward with the "another beast", it's about a SINGULAR ENTITY.

Your thinking is not terribly bad. You are teetering right on being able to see if you know where to look. So please allow me to suggest to you that you consider how the disobedience of many in the case of Israel was often spoken of in the OT and the NT as being that of a singular entity.

In the OT an entire nation that sinned was spoken of as a singular woman that sinned.

You dmonstrate reasoning ability. You can see this if you want to try to. The question is, Will you disallow yourself to be biased by what you prefer to believe? The question is, Are you willing to find yourself wrong so that you can see?

You are probably much more imtelligent than me. As I can see it I have no doubt that you can if you but want to.

Search it out. I am guessing you won't, though, because you have too many invented teachings that hang on it.

 

[Vengle53]

Part One of Two posts

Most of you do not correctly know who the man of sin of 2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians 2:3-4 is. And you will only learn who he is if you are humble enough to learn. If you really are concerned to please Christ, then prayerfully and deeply consider what I am herein going to tell you.

Before we begin I need to be sure that you understand from Matthew 13 how the seed of God’s truth is sown and what we learn from the wheat and the tares. So there I will begin:

The first parable Jesus gives at Matthew 13 shows us that a man’s heart is where the fertile soil is that receives the seeds of God’s Word. Matthew 13:19 “When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.”

So from that it is plain to see that the fertile soil wherein the wheat like one grows is in his or her heart.

Jesus went on to give another parable (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43) about a householder that sowed fine seed in his field. This field is actually the collective hearts of meek men and it therefore has good soil. But tares (Zizanion, aka Darnel weed) are like jealous men who have no real love of God but want to enter into that fine soil for the joy of being looked up to by men. Just as the Word of God sows and sets roots into the fertile soil of wheat like men’s hearts, so to these tares by enticing words seek to take root by deception in the hearts of God’s field of meek wheat. The darnel tares have longer and stronger roots than the wheat and these tares cause a tangling in the meek wheat like one’s hearts of the roots sown of the Word of God with the roots grown of the bad seed the tares sow. (Colossians 2:4) (2 Corinthians 11:3) (2 Timothy 3:6-8) (1 Timothy 4:1)

That is why Jesus told the servants who wanted to know if they should pull out the tares, Matthew 13:29-30a “But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest …”

Take time to ponder what I have explained thus far before you proceed.

Paul gives us more than a few important clues as to the true identity of this man of sin in chapter 2 of his second letter to the Thessalonian church and also in other of his letters.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”

Now let’s reword verse 2 just to be sure you understood it: “That you not be shaken in your mind, or be troubled in your heart, neither by a spirit, nor by a word, nor by a letter as though it is from us (the true ministers of the gospel of Christ), as that the day of Christ is at hand.”

So in verse 2 to we see that someone was giving them trouble by means of a false spirit, and by a false word or notification, and by a false letter claiming to be from ministers of Christ. So we can now see that the person or persons who are doing this is the person or persons Paul goes on to talk about.

2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians 2:3 “… for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

Notice carefully that in verse 3 what Paul is telling us is that those doing this to them is the man of sin. That he already exists, Paul shows in verse 7, but he yet needs to be revealed or shown up for whom he really is. (2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians 2:7)

Also in verse 3, note how the revealing of that man of sin is linked to “a falling away first”.

I am going to step ahead to verse 5 and we will come back to verse 4 in just a moment.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”



Part two of two posts

So we are now in verse 5 we are basically told we will be able to find things Paul said about this man of sin if we look through his words to the churches. And as these ones at Thessalonica were being troubled of a false spirit, a false word (or notification), and false letters claiming to be from ministers of Christ, we can reasonably expect that other churches were, also. So let’s take a look.

Acts 20:31 “Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. “

What did Paul warn them about there at Acts chapter 20?

Acts 20:28- 30 “Take heed therefore unto your selves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

Acts chapter 20 was toward the end of Paul’s ministry according to Acts 20:25-27.

And that is another important key, because here Paul is telling him that by his leaving they would begin having trouble with grievous wolves and apostasy among them. Note how that compares to 2 Thessalonians 2:5-6 “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.”

Where are some examples, other than this one in Acts, of Paul doing that withholding? Read 2[sup]nd[/sup] Corinthians chapter 11 in its entirety.

2 Corinthians 11:12-13 “But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.”

Compare: “wherein they glory, they may be found even as we” at 2 Corinthians 11:12 and 2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians 2:2 as I explained it toward the beginning of this writing.

Paul clearly shows us, throughout 2nd Thessalonians 2, that that man of sin was already there with them at that time. And directly told us that here: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” And in the second part of this he refers to Christ working through him to control it. The word “let” there is an old English way of saying, “to throttle” or “to control”.

You cannot escape these findings if you humbly evaluate them. Your expected man of sin that you say is shortly to come is going to have to be closed to 2 thousand years old, if you are basing him on what Paul tells us at 2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians chapter 2.

So then, you are yet probably feeling some convulsions at even trying to humbly consider what was written here thus far. That is to be expected. You have in the past been fed with the tare roots of more incorrect teachings than you know. I know because I was too. I know what it feels like to have to work through such deception. The beliefs we have grasped and cling to are like addiction.

But for the sake of our salvation we must be willing to become nothing so that God can make us into something.

Want to see how even Jesus refers to all those who stumble his precious little ones as, “that man”? Read on:

Matthew 18:5-7 “And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

 

[Vengle53]

How then:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

The answer is quite easy. God’s people are his temple through which he sends his law out to this world:

Ephesians 2:18-22 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

And if you pondered what I told you about Matthew chapter 13, then you know how these tares sow their way into the temple.

1 Corinthians 3:16 “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

18 ¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

21 ¶Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;”

 

[veteran]

Your thinking is not terribly bad. You are teetering right on being able to see if you know where to look. So please allow me to suggest to you that you consider how the disobedience of many in the case of Israel was often spoken of in the OT and the NT as being that of a singular entity.

In the OT an entire nation that sinned was spoken of as a singular woman that sinned.

You dmonstrate reasoning ability. You can see this if you want to try to. The question is, Will you disallow yourself to be biased by what you prefer to believe? The question is, Are you willing to find yourself wrong so that you can see?

You are probably much more imtelligent than me. As I can see it I have no doubt that you can if you but want to.

Search it out. I am guessing you won't, though, because you have too many invented teachings that hang on it.

I've declared God's Word as written. All you've declared here is your 'own' reasonings like you have some authority other than God's Word. It's not difficult to reason with God in His Word if one stays in His Word. Nor does it require some superior intelligence of our own, but only by His Spirit.

 

[Vengle53]

I've declared God's Word as written. All you've declared here is your 'own' reasonings like you have some authority other than God's Word. It's not difficult to reason with God in His Word if one stays in His Word. Nor does it require some superior intelligence of our own, but only by His Spirit.

Thinking hurt too much?

 

[veteran]

Part One of Two posts

Most of you do not correctly know who the man of sin of 2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians 2:3-4 is. And you will only learn who he is if you are humble enough to learn. If you really are concerned to please Christ, then prayerfully and deeply consider what I am herein going to tell you.

Before we begin I need to be sure that you understand from Matthew 13 how the seed of God’s truth is sown and what we learn from the wheat and the tares. So there I will begin:

The first parable Jesus gives at Matthew 13 shows us that a man’s heart is where the fertile soil is that receives the seeds of God’s Word. Matthew 13:19 “When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.”

So from that it is plain to see that the fertile soil wherein the wheat like one grows is in his or her heart.

Jesus went on to give another parable (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43) about a householder that sowed fine seed in his field. This field is actually the collective hearts of meek men and it therefore has good soil. But tares (Zizanion, aka Darnel weed) are like jealous men who have no real love of God but want to enter into that fine soil for the joy of being looked up to by men. Just as the Word of God sows and sets roots into the fertile soil of wheat like men’s hearts, so to these tares by enticing words seek to take root by deception in the hearts of God’s field of meek wheat. The darnel tares have longer and stronger roots than the wheat and these tares cause a tangling in the meek wheat like one’s hearts of the roots sown of the Word of God with the roots grown of the bad seed the tares sow. (Colossians 2:4) (2 Corinthians 11:3) (2 Timothy 3:6-8) (1 Timothy 4:1)

That is why Jesus told the servants who wanted to know if they should pull out the tares, Matthew 13:29-30a “But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest …”

Take time to ponder what I have explained thus far before you proceed.

Paul gives us more than a few important clues as to the true identity of this man of sin in chapter 2 of his second letter to the Thessalonian church and also in other of his letters.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”

Now let’s reword verse 2 just to be sure you understood it: “That you not be shaken in your mind, or be troubled in your heart, neither by a spirit, nor by a word, nor by a letter as though it is from us (the true ministers of the gospel of Christ), as that the day of Christ is at hand.”

So in verse 2 to we see that someone was giving them trouble by means of a false spirit, and by a false word or notification, and by a false letter claiming to be from ministers of Christ. So we can now see that the person or persons who are doing this is the person or persons Paul goes on to talk about.

2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians 2:3 “… for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

Notice carefully that in verse 3 what Paul is telling us is that those doing this to them is the man of sin. That he already exists, Paul shows in verse 7, but he yet needs to be revealed or shown up for whom he really is. (2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians 2:7)

Whoah. Your first error. Paul did not link those false apostles as being that "man of sin". He was showing how the "man of sin" must come before Christ comes. Simple as that.

2 Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)

The deception Paul pointed to was how that "man of sin", "son of perdition" and that "falling away" (apostasia) must happen prior to "that day" of Christ's coming and our gathering. And that false working by that "man of sin" is about his sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That's the same pseudochristos Message our Lord Jesus gave in Matt.24:23-28 that He warned His servants to not believe on, the false one standing in the "holy place". It's in agreement about a 'singular' entity, a false messiah (pseuodchristos rendered as "false Christs" in Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22, which is singular in context).

Also in verse 3, note how the revealing of that man of sin is linked to “a falling away first”.

I am going to step ahead to verse 5 and we will come back to verse 4 in just a moment.

Your second error. You're separating verse 4 from events of verse 3; that "man of sin" is in connection with the false working Paul shows he will do in verse 4.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 “Remember ye not, that,

when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

Part two of two posts

So we are now in verse 5 we are basically told we will be able to find things Paul said about this man of sin if we look through his words to the churches. And as these ones at Thessalonica were being troubled of a false spirit, a false word (or notification), and false letters claiming to be from ministers of Christ, we can reasonably expect that other churches were, also. So let’s take a look.

Acts 20:31 “Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. “

What did Paul warn them about there at Acts chapter 20?

Acts 20:28- 30 “Take heed therefore unto your selves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

Acts chapter 20 was toward the end of Paul’s ministry according to Acts 20:25-27.

And that is another important key, because here Paul is telling him that by his leaving they would begin having trouble with grievous wolves and apostasy among them. Note how that compares to 2 Thessalonians 2:5-6 “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.”

Your third error. Now you're trying to break up the order of Paul's subjects he gave in 2 Thess.2. In verse 3 (of 2 Thess.2) he was not pointing to false apostles trying to exalt themselves in place of Christ like the "man of sin" is to do per 2 Thess.2:4.

He was pointing to false apostles invovling fake letters of authority to try to confuse the Thessalonians as to when that day of Christ will happen. You have to separate the lie those false apostles were pushing from the actual false working of that "man of sin" Paul spoke of in verse 4. They're two separate subjects.

But you skipped 2 Thess.2:4 about that in order to push your 'own' tradition instead.

Where are some examples, other than this one in Acts, of Paul doing that withholding? Read 2[sup]nd[/sup] Corinthians chapter 11 in its entirety.
2 Corinthians 11:12-13 “But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.”

Compare: “wherein they glory, they may be found even as we” at 2 Corinthians 11:12 and 2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians 2:2 as I explained it toward the beginning of this writing.

Paul clearly shows us, throughout 2nd Thessalonians 2, that that man of sin was already there with them at that time. And directly told us that here: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” And in the second part of this he refers to Christ working through him to control it. The word “let” there is an old English way of saying, “to throttle” or “to control”.

Your fourth error. You forgot to include Paul's Message in 2 cor.11 about the "another Jesus" he mentioned prior to those 2 Cor.11:12-13 verses. That would also include Paul's detail in that same chapter about how Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness.

Your fifth error. You've already jumped way past 2 Thess.2:4 that defines the specific working the man of sin will do, as Paul was pointing to a future event with verse 4 still not yet manifest in his days. The "mystery of iniquity" he mentioned is a separate subject from that man of sin working of sitting in the temple, exalting himself above all that is worshipped, to show himself as God.

Your sixth error. Paul shows that he who letteth must be taken out of the way in order for that Wicked to be revealed. Yet he said the mystery of iniquity was already going on. Keeping those verses together how God intended makes that easy to understand:

2 Th 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
(KJV)

Not only does Paul show the mystery of iniquity working is different from the work that Wicked will do, he also shows how that Wicked won't be revealed until Christ comes to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. Yet he said the mystery of iniquity was already... at work. He did not declare Christ's coming on the day of The LORD had happenned yet.

What Paul shows is perfectly in line with what John declared that "antichrist shall come" (a singular false one) vs. the working of "many antichrists" (mystery of iniquity of wolves in sheep's clothing) that was already at work.

You cannot escape these findings if you humbly evaluate them. Your expected man of sin that you say is shortly to come is going to have to be closed to 2 thousand years old, if you are basing him on what Paul tells us at 2[sup]nd[/sup] Thessalonians chapter 2.

Oh come on now. Since when is twisting the Scripture like you've done an evaluation involving humility?

You totally left out 2 Thess.2:4 here, just so you could try and separate it into another subject apart from Paul's subject covered so far.

Pauls warning about that coming false messiah is not subject to any such two thousand years time reasoning, which is a false tradition of men. My Lord Jesus Christ gave more details about that false beast king coming at the end of this world in His Book of Revelation. The timing of Paul's subject for that false messiah being revealed is at Christ's coming. And Christ's second coming has still not happenned yet to today. Anyone saying Christ Jesus has already returned today is a false prophet, and not of God.

 

[veteran]

How then:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

The answer is quite easy. God’s people are his temple through which he sends his law out to this world:

Ephesians 2:18-22 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Your seventh error. You've just slapped your own definition onto that "temple" Paul said the "man of sin" and "that Wicked" will come to sit in, exalting himself over all that worshipped, showing himself that he is God.

The working of the false one in 2 Thess.2:4 is about corruption of a temple Paul mentioned. But WHAT temple?

Did not Paul say that "holy temple" of Ephesians 2 is made up of Christ as its Chief Cornerstone, with its foundation made up of His Apostles and prophets? How then, is that "holy temple" the same "temple" Paul said a false one will corrupt by placing himself in it to show himself that he is God?

It's not the same temple, and that should be obvious to any believer on our Lord Jesus Christ, for the "holy temple" Paul teaches in Eph.2 CANNOT BE CORRUPTED, for that would mean our Lord Jesus as its Chief Cornerstone, and His Apostles and prophets could be corrupted!!!

Thus the temple Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2:4 the false messiah is coming to sit in, is 'a' physical temple built on earth, and God's Word points to Jerusalem with that false temple. The orthodox unbelieving Jews today already have the materials ready to build it in Jerusalem, and they plan to start up the old animal sacrifices in it too. Maybe when you see it built in Jerusalem in our near future, you might understand how Paul was definitely pointing to a singular false entity coming to sit in it and proclaim himself as God in place of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yet the Jews in Jerusalem already having the cornerstones cut for that false temple, and the rest of the materials, having already got priests ready, and the temple articles, having formed up the old Sanhedrin again, and even proclaiming they have found the ark of the covenant, and even with some Islamic clerics who are willing to allow the Jews to rebuild it, all that really... ought to be a major sign, even for the five foolish virgins. But it's obvious those who don't care to look at all that have been blinded by God's Hand today.

 

[Vengle53]

[/b]


Your seventh error. You've just slapped your own definition onto that "temple" Paul said the "man of sin" and "that Wicked" will come to sit in, exalting himself over all that worshipped, showing himself that he is God.

The working of the false one in 2 Thess.2:4 is about corruption of a temple Paul mentioned. But WHAT temple?

Did not Paul say that "holy temple" of Ephesians 2 is made up of Christ as its Chief Cornerstone, with its foundation made up of His Apostles and prophets? How then, is that "holy temple" the same "temple" Paul said a false one will corrupt by placing himself in it to show himself that he is God?

It's not the same temple, and that should be obvious to any believer on our Lord Jesus Christ, for the "holy temple" Paul teaches in Eph.2 CANNOT BE CORRUPTED, for that would mean our Lord Jesus as its Chief Cornerstone, and His Apostles and prophets could be corrupted!!!

Thus the temple Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2:4 the false messiah is coming to sit in, is 'a' physical temple built on earth, and God's Word points to Jerusalem with that false temple. The orthodox unbelieving Jews today already have the materials ready to build it in Jerusalem, and they plan to start up the old animal sacrifices in it too. Maybe when you see it built in Jerusalem in our near future, you might understand how Paul was definitely pointing to a singular false entity coming to sit in it and proclaim himself as God in place of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yet the Jews in Jerusalem already having the cornerstones cut for that false temple, and the rest of the materials, having already got priests ready, and the temple articles, having formed up the old Sanhedrin again, and even proclaiming they have found the ark of the covenant, and even with some Islamic clerics who are willing to allow the Jews to rebuild it, all that really... ought to be a major sign, even for the five foolish virgins. But it's obvious those who don't care to look at all that have been blinded by God's Hand today.

Your are woefully wrong veteran.

I hope you figure that out before it is too late.

 

[TexUs]

This is why end times views result in a pissing match because you both are trying to link ideas and make the Bible fit your view instead of letting the Bible form it...
IE:
the "man of sin".

the "day of the Lord".

Fact is the passage does not elaborate on these things. You both are using assumptions to look at what these refer to.


I look at this and see "man of sin", and "day of the Lord", and "takes his seat in the temple"... You make a fatal beginning assumption that this is future. If your beginning assumption is wrong- your entire theory is wrong. You must always keep that in mind, that "my assumption could be wrong".

My beginning assumption (you note, I realize it's an assumption) is I see it references a temple and I think, "If I was living in 51AD when this was written, what on earth would make me think this is referring to anything other than the temple standing today?".
"day of the Lord" could be his coming in judgement (I won't go into my full beliefs here but since people (*cough*veteran*cough*) like to make up what I believe, I don't believe this was *the* coming of Christ) on Jerusalem in 90AD. You guys could whine and cry and argue with this all you want but the fact is all the text says is "day of the Lord". This could very well be it.
"man of sin" could entirely be the Roman empire. This needs to be taken in context (read my next point).
"sitting in the temple" I am also not sure should be taken literally. Like most prophecies, they're rarely literal. The entire context of the passage is the idea that this entity has exalted and attempted to make himself "greater than God"... Which includes becoming greater than his holy place, the temple. Is that not what the Roman empire did under Nero? When the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem do you not suppose they set up shop in the Temple to exert their dominance over the Jews?

I'm just saying, historical events fulfill this passage already. If I were living in 51AD and saw the events transpire in 90AD... There is NO REASON why I'd think this still had something to do with a future temple if I just saw the historical events unfold that fulfilled this.
So my thing, is don't go beyond what the text states. You both are reading definitions into the "day of the Lord", "man of sin", "sitting in the temple"... In order to fit your beginning bias of, "I want this to be future".
I'm suggest to you... Put yourself in the 51AD state of mind- then read the text. Then think about what transpired in 90AD and ask yourself if there's any reason to think it was not fulfilled.


Could I be wrong? Absolutely. However I have to go beyond what the text simply says in order to arrive at a "future" belief, which is why I won't subscribe to that view- whereas simply with historical knowledge I can read this and see, "Yeah, that happened in 90AD", and not have to force my definitions upon it.